Antinatalism -- The Immorality of Procreation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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Interesting note. Australia doesn’t actually allow “no-fault” divorce along the same lines as the USA. Takes at least a year to process a divorce application alongside other standards of which also have to be met.

Regarding this infographic, could you send me the source of this study so I can read it myself?

Do you believe the poor outcomes are in direct correlation to the absence of the father figure? Or is it a byproduct of the environmental variables that make up such a scenario? What bad decisions build up to having a child out of wedlock, the father figure running out on the boy etc.

There are certainly outliers, some people within these scenarios turn out fine. But I’d wager a child growing up without a father figure is far more likely to reside within a broken home, be of low socioeconomic status, have poor access to healthcare/education. These variables themselves are indirect consequences of socioeconomic disparities and thus aren’t singularly related to having a father figure or lack thereof.

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Notice how you picked the most trivial things on that list and ignored the things that cause major pain and suffering – diseases, disabilities, old age, and death.

This glib, dismissive attitude you hold with respect towards suffering is typical of most natalists’ psychology, especially the lucky ones who haven’t had to endure seriously bad things in their life. But don’t worry, you’ll get to experience the joys of your meat sack rotting and turning into a torture chamber that will kill you slowly and painfully, as most people who die from aging experience. You’ve condemned your children to this fate as well. Try and reconcile your love for them with this grisly, inevitable outcome you’ve subjected them to.

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I didn’t realize you posted that picture because you agreed. I thought it was a joke.

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Although I did cherry pick those items, I thought they were laughable to include in such a list.

And while I haven’t lived such an adverse life, I’ve had some serious difficulty and what is listed in that list. Some on this board know I experienced debilitating depression with suicidal ideation. My dad was severely mentally ill, which resulted in the neglect of his body, leading to his death five years ago, of which I was informed while in a car with two T-mag poster friends. My brother almost died last summer. I work in healthcare and observe all kinds of handicap and deterioration.

I, like most people, will one day experience pain and suffering again.

No, I’m not that close minded. I’m certainly spoiled to a degree, but not ignorant to what is listed there.

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So did I but then I saw it was the OP. Insufferable parents are not on the OP’s list but @fbc91 should definitely follow his own advice to prevent needless suffering through the guardian’s personality (I assume this is a troll)

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You can’t debate the arguments I’ve layed out here, so you just have to resort to ad hominems.

Not surprising at all, though. The people most likely to reproduce are the ones whose thoughts are corrupted by hardwired biases and fallacious reasoning.

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But you can’t argue, as your info graphic suggests, that death is a “torture”. No one knows what lies after death, so maybe post death is better than existence, but you have to have lived in the first place to have that experience.

I have diabetes and have had severe depression and pancreatitis(x2) before. Yes they sucked - temporarily. I would still rather be alive and deal with my disease daily than to not have existed at all.

By what you arguing, you are stating that you don’t believe your life is worth living, and by extension then neither is anyone else’s.

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That’s pretty funny. You revel at the idea of living people suffering to prevent suffering that isn’t happening, nasty stuff. You are getting more respect that you deserve, which is mostly likely what is behind your views.

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91

Suffering can be ended quickly.

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92

Depends on what your theoretical afterlife looks like. Might be a shortcut to worse suffering, haha.

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I think it’s safe to assume this guy doesn’t believe in an afterlife.

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From reading this thread my commentary is… What the hell.

I thought I was cynical and pessimistic at times but this guy REALLY takes the cake.

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can’t argue, as your info graphic suggests, that death is a “torture”
Death isn’t, but dying is. Unless you are part of the lucky few that dies in their sleep or gets hit by a bus, your death is going to be slow and painful, and you’ll lose all of your autonomy and dignity before then.

Death itself is still a harm, because we are burdened with a psychology that is mortified by the prospect of eternal annihilation and consequently seek to rationalize, repress, and resist it at almost any cost.

I would still rather be alive and deal with my disease daily than to not have existed at all.

Not everyone feels the same way. MIllions of people kill themselves each year, and the number could easily be 10x higher if humans weren’t burdened with neurological programming that seeks to avoid death despite enduring tremendous suffering.

I myself have been afflicted with debilitating chronic pain since I was 15. It would’ve been better if I’d never been born, but now I’m faced with the prospect of enduring the rest of my life with crippling pain or overcoming the existential terror of suicide. What a great choice I’ve been given. Life is such a gift.

You revel at the idea of living people suffering to prevent suffering that isn’t happening, nasty stuff.

I “revel” in it? No, I have to use vivid, colorful language to express how awful suffering truly is because natalists such as yourself minimize and dismiss it to protect your tenuous delusion that life is this amazing gift worth passing on.

Suffering can be ended quickly.

Is this what you’re going to tell your kids if they have to endure horrific amounts of suffering? No attempt to empathize with their pain. Just glibly dismiss their suffering and tell them to off themselves.

“Ah, what’s the matter, Billy? That pesky chronic disease you’re dealing with making your life a living hell? Your suffering is trivial because it can all be ended quickly, so just quit your bitching. Your incessant complaining is really dragging down the mood. If you don’t like here, you can just kill yourself. My gun is in the bedroom drawer.”

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If they’re as whiny as you, why wouldn’t I?

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As have I. Unreal24278 has chronic pain of a severity wherein I take painkillers semi regularly (on prescription). As a result of this amongst numerous other confounding variables including major depressive disorder there have been times wherein I’ve thought “perhaps life isn’t worth living”. I don’t talk about it on here but there have been times wherein suicidal ideation progressed further than mere “ideation”.

There’s a fairly big leap between having dark thoughts and actually acting out on those thoughts, though being in either headspace is awful. But as ideation tends to act as a precursor I’d go talk to a therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist if you’re seriously having these thoughts.

You mention existential terror associated with suicide… Good! Deep down you still have will to live, you don’t want to die. How old are you? Chances are you have much to see and experience! Have you thought about perhaps travelling a little bit once tourism is back up and running worldwide? See what the life has to offer, there’s more to life than what your current outlook perceives.

Despite still having to deal with constant pain coupled with shitty circumstances things are leaps and bounds better for me than they were last year. I’d wager for 99.9% of those feeling the way you or I feel/have felt, things have gotten better

I can understand the outlook you harbour here, though I don’t believe it is a healthy one. Procreation itself isn’t immoral, producing offspring is what we are biologically designed for.

The parent typically isn’t aware of the burden a child may have to endure down the line in relation to medical ailments. If they were, then I’d argue procreation in this instance may be immoral depending on the severity of congenital abnormalities present. It’s unlikely your parents would’ve had confirmation regarding your chronic pain during adolescence, therefore I don’t see how one could infer procreation between two loving partners as being immoral unless there was the certainty of the child being born under the roof of a broken home, without parental guardians or afflicted with severe congenital abnormalities.

Everyone has their own baggage to deal with; and trust me, you aren’t the only one with chronic pain. This isn"t to downplay the severity of your condition, but it can be helpful to know there are others out there who can relate. Have you ever considered joining a support group? @fbc91

I know how horrible chronic pain can be (also started at a young age), how it can drain the life out of you and take the joy out of everything. Unfortunately at times lifestyle modifications need to be adopted in effort to make things more comfortable within your day to day paradigm.

See a pain specialist if possible; this made the biggest difference for me in terms of day to day quality of life.

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More ad hominems. Stop being a coward and address the arguments I’ve outlined in my post.

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I think it probably is a net negative for most. I think my hounds are net positive, but many wild animals live a rough life..

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Who talks like this?

By the way, do you work out?

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You just know your a good parent when you’re okay with telling your son to shoot himself…

(This is a joke btw, trying to elicit a laugh. Not trolling or being facetious, just stating this in case it comes across as if I’m trying to be an ass).

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This is how NickViar would talk to his children “if they were as whiny as me.” This is the attitude many other natalists have towards suffering as well. Evidently, this is how you think too, given that you liked NickViar’s post claiming that “suffering can be ended quickly.” The obvious implication of that statement is that any intolerable suffering that befalls a person during their life is trivial, since one can “easily” commit suicide.

By the way, do you work out?

Why is this relevant?