Antinatalism -- The Immorality of Procreation

Yeah, and I don’t disagree, just indicating that those outcomes were evidently the want of women. Monogamy in history is almost exclusively to the benefit and protection of women.

It’s actually interesting to think right now that the dichotomy in the values of women between left and right drives a dichotomy of hierarchies, and is a big part of the split in the country. There are, for the first time in history, a large section of women who are anti-monogamy. A traditional hierarchy of power and competence vs a hierarchy of victimhood.

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On the topic of monogamy. Did humans evolve to be monogamous or is monogamy as the acceptable form of relationship a social construct

I know there are some species that are monogamous and it’d be hard to argue that they are that way b/c of “patriarchy” or sexism

You are assuming that social constructs aren’t evolved or influenced by biology. It isn’t that simple.

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That’s what I was asking- is there a biological underpinning to monogamy as the default

For all humans, no, it’s not a biological construct considering the urge of men to have sex with more than one woman.

It’s an adaptive strategy to unlock productivity in ordinary men and to ideally have high investment patenting. Polygamy is marked by enormous resentment and disenfranchisement in male populations and low-investment parenting.

I think there are biological underpinnings to everything we do. I certainly think there are biological drives, especially for women, for that type of relationship. For fulfillment in life, but biologically for the successful raising of offspring. The time and energy investment to raise a human is higher than any other animal. I don’t think that women being selective breeders with a large demand for commitment throughout history is coincidental. A big part of the upheaval in values and hierarchies as I mentioned previously is the recent decoupling of relationships from biological reproductive drives.

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@anna_5588 - here’s something with numbers for you, haha.

I did actually find it interesting. It’s kinda related to what the discussion is about.

EDIT: Oh, and this.

This is not a website I’ve ever been to before, but I stumbled across it and read a few articles.

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Took a look- those articles make a lot of sense. Interesting website too.

My stance on children is that they are very important and the fact that others disagree with my views about having children of my own mean that I am able to not have them

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I guess if we don’t mind women being miserable and watching heterosexual marriages suffer, then no.

You are perpetuating a myth.

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could you please expand on what you mean?

I’m genuinely curious. I generally avoid discussing social issues, but this topic is very interesting to me

The modern husband is generally more involved than ever before in raising kids, which is awesome. But it’s still more of a 65/35 split, even when men view it 50/50. Most of the time men also have to be told to do things because mom plays manager and handles the burden of intimately understanding how to plan the family’s schedule and how things get done. Men are often willfully blind, blame it on their wife’s personality, etc. Some are genuinely concerned, too, but don’t know how to improve the situation. The sad thing is that women also don’t know either and can perpetuate this, even if it makes them miserable. So it’s very much a societal thing. I like men; I don’t mean to denigrate them or make them out to be uncaring assholes. I’m simply saying that unshared division of labor can place a lot of strain on a relationship and contribute to divorce. I’ve experienced it in my own life.

Many people, even women themselves, think women have innate maternal instincts that men cannot match. Sure, breastfeeding is part of the equation, but otherwise men’s hormones change with pregnancy similarly to women’s. Humans regardless of their sex are wired to care for their own offspring. Yet the many bonding hours that solidify parental drives in the early stages are often passed off to the woman.

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No way. Single women seem much happier than married women. Women who go through life as, basically, unpaid prostitutes always seem very happy. Childless women seem much happier than women with children. I think the only reason women do either is because they get tired of their family asking them when they are going to do those things. (/s)

Maybe, if men got pregnant. Otherwise, it seems not:

-Men’s testosterone and estradiol levels go down, while women’s go up.

OMG… yes… this has been a big source of frustration for mum. Right now though, I’m starting to take over this role when I’m home lol :joy:

There’s also so much research about how important dad’s are for a children’s well-being, and it’s shame that in some cultures (ie Chinese), this knowledge still isn’t widespread.

Good post. I used to listen to the Megan Meeker podcast.

Considering you are keen on studies, here’s an info graphic saved on my phone from long ago.

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Those are nice videos. I can’t say I have ever had great relationships with my parents, but I might have gone insane had my dad not been there. Really. But he did leave all of the burden of household management to my mom, even though he still “did things” like drive me to sports events when asked and so on.

I don’t like playing ping pong with these topics on the Internet, so I’m done here. It’s a bit tangential anyway. But Anna, you brought up good reasons why you and other women at the very least hesitate to have kids today, and while I don’t thinking having kids in most cases is “hell on earth,” it’s more than just “dealing with” the kid. Especially for women.

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One of the things that kinda gets me is that less than 100 years ago men wouldn’t live much past 50.

A clear sign that we are fortunate that such complacency is common enough to meme:

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My dad is the same

Thank you and I agree

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I recently found out that one of my brother’s favourite animes is about girl bands… and it’s totally socially acceptable among his peers

I was honestly shocked

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I know, right. We’re not going to produce human beings who will live happily and safely ever after in a pink-and-blue padded nursery room.

Just literal lol at “working 9-5” and “unfulfilled desires”. Man that’s rough.