I have an advanced nutrition question for all those who can help:
A book I recently read by a vegan author (an MD) stated that when the body breaks down animal protein (ie, chicken, beef, etc), it makes the body into an acidic environment which can lead to cancer! Has anyone ever heard this???
I know that acidic PH levels in the body often cause cancer, but I thought it was from insufficient dietary calcium?! I’m assuming that insufficient cellular calcium would not buffer acidity. Also, I believe an acidic PH in body tissues keeps disolved oxygen from remaining at the proper levels. As we all know cells without oxygen die (can be cacerous).
Any biochemistry wizards out there that can shed some light on this? And, if it’s not true, what processes/nutrients might this author be confused or misinformed about???
well alot of studies link red meat and meat in general to cancer.
man, the more we learn the more it fucks with our heads… i really can’t stand it
anyway, get alot of fiber/veggies/fruit, and try not to think about it. alot of these old war vets you see walking around grew up on meat/eggs/milk etc… and they are still breathing.
Well for starters I am know Biochem wizard, but i have taken both Biochemistry and Molecular Cell Biology at Johns Hopkins. Since intracellular protein degradation occurs mainly (but far from entirely) in the lysosome regulatory pathway it is compartmentalized. Granted the inside of the lysosome itself is of course acidic, (pH levels often play key roles in activating and deactivating molecules) but since it is compartmentalized cell homeostasis is maintained. Now I assume the vegan is talking about the extracellular pathway, which consists of digestive proteases which break down ingested proteins to polypeptides in the intestinal tract. These proteases include endoproteases, exoproteases, and peptidases (the differences are based on where they cleave the protein in question, N-terminus/C-terminus etc.) Again this all occurs in an already acidic enviorment. Since all protein degredation creates amino acids which are transported across the lumen or intestinal lining into the blood stream I can’t really see the vegans point.
Further more what are this guys sources, mine is Molecular Cell Biology 4th edition, Lodis Berk Zipursky, Freeman publishing.
Never listen to a vegan when they talk about MEAT. What were you thinking?!
on a side note I too have read that having an “acidic” pH can harbor bacteria and diseases in the body, and that a “basic” pH is generally assosciated with being healthier. I’ve found that eating a LOT of veggies can bring a person’s pH to a more neutral level (using litmus paper tests, but you have to do them about an hour after eating or drinking anything, or else the test is not accurate). I’d suggest you read up on this stuff if it really worries you. Also, try out some stuff like miracle greens, it seems to help bring the body to a more basic pH.
and again… never listen to a vegan when MEAT is the topic!
Well if it does I have a simple remedy that seems to work great for me. Along side the plethora of animal proteins I comsume on a daily basis I make sure to get plenty of Veggies.
Good veggies. Get enough of these and you will balance out that PH. Also as a preventative I also simply add 1/2 tsp to my diet in one of my drinks through the day.
That is just my 2 cc. I am sure if we looked we could find a study that showed yhis guys Vegan diet caused cancer also. Just try and get a balanced diet, high in all the goods, pro, carb, and fat and hope for the best man.
All of the studies connecting the consumption of red meat to cancer have used factory farm raised beef. If they were to use grass finished beef I’m sure there would be no correlation. Grass finished beef has an omega three to six ratio of 1 to 2 whereas most meat in the supermarket has a ration 1:20. A total dietary ratio of omega threes to sixes that exceeds 1:4 is unhealthy.
Grass finished beef has much higher levels of vitamin E, beta-carotene, and CLA than does conventional beef. The last nutrient is very difficult to obtain from whole food sources. Grass finished beef also contains less saturated fat than grain finished beef, and since most grass-finished beef is raised organically it contains less pesticide and hormone remnants as well.
Vegans have being using the whole meat causes acidic build up scare tactic for awhile. The body is quite capable at balancing ph despite the consumption of meat. If you doubt me read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A Price. Price studied a large number of indigineous peoples who were free from almost all forms of physical degenration including cancer. None of these groups were vegan and some lived entirely off of meat, milk, and blood with little vegetable matter.
I am not formally educated in biochem - just a street taught personal trainer. So, I appreciate the actual specific medical language.
In my 8 or so years of research and pratice in the fitness world, I have never come across such as what this vegan is proposing. As I mentioned, an imbalanced diet, void of lots of fruits and veggies will create excess acidity. But, I am with you guys - I eat lots of veggies and fruits, lean meats/protein supplements, and some low-fat dairy. From all the latest info out there (especially from T-Mag.com) and from personal experience, sound nutrition all comes back to those items.
Personally, I was never going to change my eating habits. I am a 225 natural BB, with around 11-12% bodyfat, before hardcore dieting. I feel great and all the clients I train feel great when I prescibe for them to eat like I do. There is no way I am changing what works and is backed by the many experts I have consulted with over the years. I just wanted to throw it out there to see what you all thought, because there is always room to learn more.
I welcome more responses! Especially those with a biochem background and possibly a RD. I would love if any of the nutrition guys from T-Mag would chyme in as well.
I will be passing this along to the person who has been “misinformed” about the vegan diet. Although, you specified that grass finished beef is the key - a diet including meat is still quite healthy.
How about cutting back on the red meat if someone doesn’t have access to organic/grass fed beef? Wouldn’t it be healthier yet to eat mostly chicken, turkey, fish??? (Whole of course, not processed lunch meat and such.)
The greatest (and most consistent) insults to the body (and probabaly the greatest contributors to morbidity and mortality) we have little (if any) control over:
In No Particular Order:
UV rays from the sun.
Respiration (the processing of 0-2 and CO2)
Overall body metabolism.
All are oxidant/free radical/DNA damaging processes.
What we eat, and what we choose to eat and be exposed to (like the Sun) can IN THEORY, SLOW these processes…but in reality, none have showed much statistical significance in mortality EXCEPT a) cessation of smoking b)cessation of drinking and c)minimal, if any, tanning.
Like everyone has said…eat anti-oxidant rich foods…LIMIT red meat and sunbathing…stop smoking…limit alcohol…avoid TRANS fatty acid rich foods…EXERCISE…Lift Iron…
HOW WE COOK red meat is probably more important than where it is raised (in terms of CANCER risk (although every little bit helps!)
The problem are HCA’s (or Heterocyclic Amines) that come from those big, juicy, blackened slabs of “tail-gated” beef! (Sorry Chris and all Texans! LOL!)
I will be passing this along to the person who has been “misinformed” about the vegan diet. Although, you specified that grass finished beef is the key - a diet including meat is still quite healthy.
How about cutting back on the red meat if someone doesn’t have access to organic/grass fed beef? Wouldn’t it be healthier yet to eat mostly chicken, turkey, fish??? (Whole of course, not processed lunch meat and such.)
Thanks again!!!
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Your very welcome. The work of Weston A Price pretty much destroys every single vegan argument. In the past I was a vegan and it almost killed me. Those were scary days. I plan on putting up a detailed post about the dnagers of veganism although I’m sure most people on t-nation know its an absurd way to eat.
Grass finished beef can be purchased from mercola.com along with a whole slew of other awesome products. If, however, one still is unable to obtain grass-finished beef, it is my opinion that the benefits of eating conventional basis in moderation outweight its negatives.
“What we eat, and what we choose to eat and be exposed to (like the Sun) can IN THEORY, SLOW these processes…but in reality, none have showed much statistical significance in mortality EXCEPT a) cessation of smoking b)cessation of drinking and c)minimal, if any, tanning.”
What we eat has a HUGE impact upon how we age, what diseases we contract, and how we perform. In Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Price compares people groups in a certain areas who consume traditional diets with those in the same area who consume diets full of processed devitalized foods. Those who consumed traditional diets had vastly superior physical and moral health than those who eat crap similar to what the majority of North Americans consume. He also relates stories of certain individuals whom upon switching from a traditional diet to a devitalized one experienced a decay in their health. Price conducted these population comparisons across the globe with a wide variety of subjects and diets and found the same pattern throughout: processed diets=decay properly prepared whole foods diet=vitality and freedom from degenerative disease.
I’m sure there are tons of people on this board who can tell you how much a change in their diet has affected their health, well being, and performance for better or for worse.
I’m not disagreeing! What we eat most certainly DOES have an effect on our health! (Which is why I mentioned anti-oxidant rich foods, eliminating TRANS fatty acid rich foods, alcohol, eating meat in moderation, etc.)
But eating Brocolli, Brussels Sprouts and Blueberries will help us little if we smoke 3 packs/day, drink a six-pack, are overfat, don’t exercise and roast in the sun 4 hours a day.
My comments were directed at those who chase minutia while ignoring the larger contributors to our mobidity and mortality.
I had a Pathology Instructor who was a 3 pack/day smoker, a drinker AND had a strong family history of early cardiac death…
His answer? Take an aspirin/day, take a gram of Vitamin C/day and avoid eggs…but he would not a)stop smoking, b)EAT A HEALTHY DIET and c)start exercising…
The minute I hear the word “vegan” that person, no matter how well educated, loses a lot of my respect. They convinced my wife to go that route for health reasons, and things only got worse, way worse. After 4 years, she went back to a normal, well balanced diet, and things improved promptly.
I live in hippie-town usa, and a lot of people up here are vegans. To me, they all look sick and unhealthy but they swear that meat is the devil. Hence the added joy I get when eating a steak or a big huge burger patty in front of one of these morons. I guess it just amazes me how some people can think that meat will kill them, yet tripping on LSD and other whacked out drugs all the time is aok. Some people really need to evaluate themselves… goddamn hippie bastards…
Your observation supports the point I was making…in other words, all of the “missing the mark” that many people do…
…Substituting something often MUCH more unhealthy while eliminating something that may be healthier based on minutia (e.g. continuing to smoke but eliminating eggs because of cholesterol fears…)
The pursuit of TRUE health really takes knowledge…not fear…