I think we are over dramaizing here. Life is good. I quit my high paying job which brought me to the top 5% in my country. I torn ACL this year and I can barely walk. I am working a job that pays almost twice less, but I am more optimistic than ever. Life is good, we have it easy, we just need to work harder and smarter.
I donāt think we are over dramatizing here.
Society hasnāt unraveled in the USA, but it seems obvious to me that we are now heading in a distinctly different direction of continued impoverishment. I see no course correction taking place here in the USA, not at the government policy level. To bring one more example into the discussionā¦
Weāre presently in the process of raising the least physically healthy and the least mentally healthy generation in history. We are in the process of warping these childrensā minds with profoundly false notions about the world in order to validate the perverse feelings and opinions of the adults who are now in power. The trans issue is just one aspect of the indoctrination, and my state has enshrined policies into law to ensure that children can choose a life of profound disability and become a lifetime medical patient without any parental input or approval. This is not hyperbole.
The people who deeply believe in this are now entering the workplace with disastrous results. I have a close friend who works at a non-profit. She is one more warning away from a formal write up. You see, everyone gets to choose their pronouns in her office and you must adhere to them. Thereās one woman who doesnāt want pronouns to be used at all to refer to her, and this wild notion is entertained and enforced. My friend is in real trouble at her job for using the English language against her obviously female coworker. Sheās called this poor woman āsheā two separate times now, an obvious trend of malicious misgendering.
Back to the kids, this generation is less prepared academically than any generation, as weāve decided that standards of mental and even physical performance are harmful, and children should instead be told that they are great at all times.
This is not how you bring that generation into the broad, sunlit uplands. I believe that the best of this coming generation will be the best that there has ever been, but the average is backsliding in a very troubling and concerning direction.
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Victor Davis Hanson is a serious historian. Here is his recent broad commentary on this topic.
From the 2nd video:
āWeāre coming to a point where this is not just a philosophical, abstract discussionā
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I think it will be fine (Iāve got two young boys too). Every generation thinks itās the end for one reason or another. But like @FlatsFarmer basically said, life tends to stay relatively the same or even improve over time not get worse.
Ours sons will likely have opportunities we canāt even fathom right now.
I think things will be fine for most high-achievers with good parents who can help them navigate whatever the future holds. Especially if there is some inter-generational wealth in play. Itās just that we are laying down the conditions for fewer and fewer situations like that. Hence my take that the best of our next generation will be the best weāve ever seen, but the average will backslide in troubling ways.
I donāt think this is just another case of āthe next generation is bad compared to usā. My early boomer parents did not expect things like meeting basic needs and achieving home ownership to be significantly more difficult for me than it was for them. And they were mostly correct, up until recently.
There are significant historical abnormalities we are experiencing right now that I find particularly troubling, as does historian Victor Davis Hanson in the videos I linked above. A few years ago I made the case for our current situation being akin to a new version of Maoās cultural revolution, with an American version of the Red Guard springing up. Hanson makes the same point in the videoās I linked. I recommend watching his content and hearing the man out. Heās connecting dots in a clear, coherent way, with a grounded perspective gained from pursuing history as a serious topic.
Bill Maher is even departing his lifelong lane of being a smug democrat apologist to call into question our current direction. Bill Maher, of all people. Matt Taibi is another notable name that comes to mind. He and I were on the same page in the early 2000ās when we were both Democrats firmly opposed to the wars and the lies of the establishment.
Iām no longer on the same page as him, but even he is coming around to the idea that weāre on a profoundly bad path.
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Which doesnāt make much sense to me because their parents lived through the Great Depression.
Some times are harder than others, no doubt. However, if we look at the trajectory of history itās hard to argue that the future wonāt get better, imo.
Iāll watch it when I can. I also think there are some similarities to the Cultural Revolution. Although, I am not well versed on that topic.
Sure, wokeism is a disease, I donāt disagree.
I agree that we are not on a great path. I could easily list 50 things I think need to change.
My point is that human beings have a history of correcting course. Usually after some awful times, thoughā¦
At the end of the day, I still believe society is relatively fine and that the issues we face arenāt significantly worse than prior generations they are just amplified by the internet/social media.
Can you imagine if Twitter existed during the cold war?
This is the basis for my argument in this thread. We are so accustomed to the broad, sunlit uplands that we simply assume that they will be there for our children in the future, no matter what sort of policy adventures we embark upon as a society.
You and I are usually on the same page, but I disagree with you on this point. Vehemently. Itās not even a generational issue. It is a cultural issue at the root. A good argument can be made that it goes even deeper, and the problem is spiritual at itās root. Good vs Evil, a conflict as old as humanity.
What we are experiencing today is dramatically different than anything thatās ever happened before. Our situation is even different from the Maoist Cultural Revolution and their enforcers in the Red Guard. Similarities can be drawn, but we remain in uncharted historical waters.
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Yeah. One thing that stuck with me from reading M. Scott Peck was that at the root of criminal behavior is the thought āIām gonna get mine.ā.
And there are a lot of people now saying that, and doing it at all levels and all costs.
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I disagree on physical health and academic preparation. I am not American, but locally I see a lot more young teens going to the gym than ever and they are educated about their lifting. I can see also a lot more soccer, volleyball and kickboxers (these are our local sports) in their teens hitting the gym as well. If kids do not play outside much nowadays, they definitely do more sports. If I compare them to my generation they are much more stronger, eat healthier and much higher.
Now regarding academics. Every year we have national exams after 4th, 8th and 12th grade. And every year we discuss the poor results. I am always amazed how we teach and measure kids with boomer tools, information in a time of podcasts, AI and other technology. If I were a student now I would never ever read a book. It just wont be interesting for me now, when I can ask ChatGPT what the book is all about.
Iām happy that youāre not experiencing what Iām describing in this thread, but Iām not speaking about where you live. Iām speaking about where I live, which is the United States.
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Boomer tools? How did they measure students 200 years ago? 500 years ago? 1,000 years ago? The reality is, there are students who pass these archaic tests and learn from archaic methods. The simple thing would be to look at the kids who succeed under those conditions and look at the kids who donāt and then come to the better conclusion that itās about the individual student and not the methods. Accommodating poor work ethic, short attention spans, not really caring about learning at all, lack of ambition, etc., is not the answer to educationās supposed problems.
This is a sign of not understanding what being educated means. Itās not just knowing something but the process by which you come to know it. You donāt read Shakespeare or Melville for the plot. āWhat happens?ā is not the correct question when you want someone to tell you about Moby Dick.
And this is OK. Not everyone should go to college. Not every kid should take classes in high school geared toward becoming a well educated person. Schools love to push college for all these days but a large number of kids just arenāt meant for higher education. Itās not just a lack of motivation or values as some people in education want us to believe. A good number of kids lack the cognitive abilities for higher education. This is also OK as we all have different strengths but this is where it gets bad. How many parents these days want to be told that their son just isnāt intelligent enough for college or even the higher level high school classes? How many parents want to be told their kids should learn a trade? Not many given how schools have moved towards inclusive classes. Some schools will let any kid take AP classes. And now you have some school systems trying to get rid of AP classes and talented and gifted programs. Clearly, some kids can do well under these antiquated methods.
You donāt want to read a book? Thatās fine but donāt expect the same outcomes as someone who has the discipline to do so. The desire to do so. Someone who has gone through the process and is capable of more than you are. I would say that if a teacher gives a kid a book and the kid says he doesnāt want to read it, then give the kid a shovel or hammer. And like I said, there is nothing wrong with that. We need good tradesmen. We need custodians. We need garbage men. These are jobs that also pay well. The problem is, when you give that lazy kid who has no ambition (other than being an influencer or content creator) a shovel, heāll betray his narcissism (cultivated by his parents) and say itās beneath him. So the problem we see isnāt that kids donāt want to read and donāt want to sweat, but that they donāt want to do anythingā¦ and get paid like a CEO for it.
Going through the process of learning, like reading a book, prepares you for the process of life and of work. This is why companies complain about new hires, fresh out of college, wanting all of the benefits that other employees had to earn over several years. They are simply weak. They are also the future. Good luck.
Agreed; yet, we continue to move forward. We eventually move beyond even the absolute darkest of times.
In the not to distant past, Jews were being eliminated in Europe and we overcame that evil. America imported slaves and since then weāve eliminated the practice here. We used to have holy wars and, for the most part, have moved beyond that. Even conflict between nations is not nearly what it was even 80 years ago.
History is dark, but itās also the story of humanity overcoming absolute chaos to be better. I donāt see the need to overcome nor the eventuality of overcoming changing for this generation or any generation for that matter.
Obviously there are some really fucked up things going on in America. The cultural push to sexualize minors to the point of medically transitioning them if they feel different being imo one of if not the single most nefarious and important issue of the day. That said, countries are starting to push back. Several European nations have made transitioning minors illegal (Iām pretty sure I read that anyway. Donāt quote me). I believe some states have as well.
Our problems arenāt worse theyāre just different. We have security previous generations didnāt have and an abundance of food no one foresaw so new problems have emerged. Problems that really can only exist because of how far weāve come.
Are we potentially heading for worse? Absolutely, I donāt disagree, but thatās if we donāt course correct. But I think people leaving woke states like California for places like Florida is an indication that weāre approaching if not at the breaking point over these issues.
You brought up Bill Maher, I think heās a good example. Very liberal; yet, he is speaking up against the current absurdities weāre dealing with. Rogan is another example. Look at the skyrocketing popularity of guys like David Goggins and Jocko Willink. Look at the growth of Crossfit during an age of sedentary behavior and extreme obesity. People course correct. People push back.
Take COVID as an example. The backlash is strong and growing. Trust in public institutions has plummeted. Look at how involved parents have gotten with education since COVID. Homeschooling has at least doubled. The number of states embracing school choice / vouchers is also increasing. Itās not all bad, but ugly gets clicks. Negative sells news.
My personal opinion, is that we (humanity) tend to overstate how bad things are and understate how good things have become. Itās easier to be cynical than optimistic.
Iāve told Zep this before, but I have a feeling youāll actually try it. Read āCan Capitalism Surviveā by Joseph Schumpeter. Itās about economics, but he talks about some of the economic issues we face that, I believe, play a big factor in the current culture war / drive towards the collective over the individual.
I believe that if we improve the opportunities people have to become successful (middle class) many of these problems disappear because then people are buying homes, starting families, etcā¦
Sure, but again, it hasnāt exactly been sunshine and rainbows here either. I see our current situation as more or less growing pains in this experiment on individual liberty weāve been running and an unintended consequence of liberty in the age of social media is extreme narcissism on display and even celebrated by a big chunk of the west. I have faith weāll get through it.
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Sorry for the long post. Iām bored at work and kept writing as random things came to mind.
I think it depends on what one means by ābetter.ā One of my professors often says he thinks things are getting both better and worse every day. Over time, healthcare will likely improve. Advancements in technology will probably make many things easier, safer, and more efficient. At least in certain parts of the world, life will continue to get easier, which many people consider better.
But I think weāre facing things today that no past generation or society has ever dealt with. I think technology (be it computers, smart phones, social media, or whoever you want to name as the culprit) has changed things in ways that no one has experienced before.
America (and other parts of the world) is facing an epidemic of anxiety, depression, and loneliness. Human nature hasnāt changed - we have the same flaws now that weāve always had, but weāre able to check out more now in more ways than we ever have (doom scrolling on Tiktok, doing large amounts and varieties of drugs, wasting away hours playing video games in a dark room), and it hasnāt been good for us.
Thereās probably other factors contributing to this. Thereās even been essays written about the design of our homes and neighborhoods eliminating human interaction. Simple things can attached garages means people can get in the car to go to work and come home at the end of the day without necessarily speaking to anyone. Fewer houses are being built with front porches that people used to sit on and say hello to the neighbors as they walked by, and are instead being built with backyard decks and fenced-in yards, which allow for more privacy, but less intimacy.
I work in my schoolās tech center, and used to answer the phones when students called with tech questions. Many of them couldnāt even (and I say this with sympathy, not mockery) handle making a phone call to a stranger and speaking with any amount of confidence or clarity. They sounded like they were going to have a panic attack. Theyād likely been texting since they were 10 years old and just hadnāt really had to make many phone calls in their lives, but isnāt that kind of weird? That a 20 year old canāt handle the āstressā of a simple phone call? That shouldnāt be hard for people to do. Donāt even get me started on eye contact and firm handshakes when you meet them in personā¦
The internet has also introduced kids to sexuality wayyy to early. I think I mentioned it on here once before, but there was some type of incident at my young cousinās elementary school where 4th graders were sending each other suggestive videos on Snapchat or some social media app. Ten year old girls were sending ten year old boys videos of them sucking cucumbers and pop bottles, while the boys talked about who they would rape if they could. Or in my own high school, several years ago, we had to have cops come in multiple times to address Snapchat, which was new and really popular at the time, to address the amount of nudes teens were sending to each other and sometimes subsequently leaking to others. The cops wanted to let everyone know that the pictures they had on their phones of naked fifteen year old counted as child pornography. One guy got scared and literally destroyed his phone, haha. I think he dunked it in the toilet and smashed it. I donāt know what he was thinking.
I know my generation isnāt the first to be exposed to sex and nudity, but like I said to @twojarslave in a thread a couple years back when he sarcastically asked if I thought my generation invented erections, thereās a HUGE difference between being a kid in the 70s and finding a Playboy in the woods with some nipples in it, or being a kid in the 90s and watching a VHS tape of some soft-core porno. Nowadays kids can find the most extreme porn possible within a minute, and distribute it to their entire class in another minute if they want. Or the ease that Snapchat and texting allows for sending naked pictures of each other, which is something a lot of young, dumb, horny kids do. You werenāt overnighting Polaroids of your junk to your crush in the 80s (right?), so this is all pretty new for people. I remember seeing a Youtube short of someone, maybe Jordan Peterson, saying the average child in America can, if they want to, view more naked women in a day than the richest king to ever live was able to in his entire life. That doesnāt seem healthy, or good.
Historically, things have gotten better in many ways. But I think itās only in some ways. Materially? Absolutely. At least in America. In other ways? Not so much. People are so lost. We tend to shit on the past, but what have we learned about human nature that Plato, Dante, Shakespeare, Jefferson, etc. didnāt already know? Doesnāt seem like much. We can search for life on Mars but we also canāt decide what gender we want to be next Tuesday. Weāre growing increasingly isolated, both physically and mentally; losing faith in the institutions that have guided humans for centuries (government, religion, culture, family, etc.); and more and more of us are, like I said, finding ways to check out of life in a time and place where we live better lives than almost any other human before us. This doesnāt look good to me.
I normally agree with you on a lot of things and think youāve made some good points. Please excuse my ramblings that no one asked to hear, haha.
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Yet even he apologized for something he shouldnāt have needed to apologize for.
Which is nothing compared to some influencers preaching the opposite.
These same people would probably have been working out regardless. Obesity is still on the rise.
Sure, they pushed back against Bud Lite but it only served to galvanize the trans community and their allies more. The biggest winner was Dylan whatever her name is. She was martyred and making even more money now.
Of course it can but who benefits and who doesnāt will change. At the heart of wokeism is a shift from who is perceived to benefit the most from capitalism, straight white males, to everyone else. But it really isnāt only about race and sex but all of the practical things that one needs to be successful under capitalism: work ethic, ambition, aggressiveness, competitiveness, etc., all of the attributes associated with (toxic) masculinity.
What you have is a group of people who lack those traits and therefore classify them as part of white supremacy. White being not simply about skin color but whiteness which is defined as essentially white heterosexual male values. They therefore want to create a world where what they possess as traits are what will drive their version of capitalism which will have a heavy marxist influence. Itās rather insidious as the attack on capitalism is not merely the traditional economic class one, but it is now a racial, gender, sex, and other identity one. Will it work? Probably, as they can make reward more accessible while reducing risk. Everyone gets a trophy and no one keeps score.
Also, historically, things have ended. The ancient Greeks, Romans, Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, the Mongols, etc. People like to mock others by referring to the sky is falling but the sky has fallen before. So it really isnāt a question of things getting better but for whom are they getting better and for whom will it be the end.
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I would agree with that. Itās a better way of putting it.
Yes and no. Technological innovation is always a catalyst for experience never before had. People were very concerned about their livelihoods during the industrial revolution for example. Is the degree of disruption the same, 
itās hard to say. Is it for better or worse, again hard to say. Some things are better some things worse. On the scales, whoās to say.
Agreed.
Disagree. One of the only ways I am able to spend time with many of my friends in via video games because we all live states apart. This is why I said itās difficult to say one way or the other if current tech is for better or for worse.
I also think anxiety and depression, at least in part, are driven by how far weāve come as a society among many other factors. I actually think women entering the work force is a major possibly the main factor here. Iām not against women working. Far from it, but iirc, increased depression among women has gone up significantly more than men over the last 50ish years. Again, a lot of factors might explain this social media being one of them.
Sure, these things shouldnāt be an issue and seem kinda silly, but we live in a post phone call societyā¦ I know quite a few older folks that struggle to send emails. Again, different problems not necessarily worse problems.
No argument here.
I agree that once the internet hit homes sexual content became very easy for kids to see. I remember seeing some things with Kazaa and Bearshare (I think thatās what it was called) that I wish I hadnāt. Itās a problem for sure.
However, itās not like previous generations werenāt sexual either. N=1, but my mother had her first child at barely 16. Women used to get pregnant much young.
I only think this generation is lost because previous generations couldnāt afford to get lost because there were actually concerns over their survival. That wasnāt that long ago. Weāre designed, like all other animals, to create life (pass on our genetics) and survive as long as possible. When you remove the threat of death from predation and starvation, I believe, we look for anything else to fill that void. Itās our success working against us. Thatās my opinion anyway. Maybe itās wacky, but thatās what I think is happening.
Itās all good. Ramble away, lol. Thatās what weāre all here for.
Well, thatās on him. He didnāt need to apologize. He has more than enough money to ride off into the sunset.
Probably, but that doesnāt negate the rise of their voices.
I doubt most of the soccer moms doing Crossfit would have been lifting weights regardless. Itās hard to overstate how impactful Crossfit has been on soccer moms and dads.
But, yes, obesity is obviously a problem.
I donāt know what the alternative is. Just roll over?
Sometimes awful people take advantage of others.
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Course corrections incoming:
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A few things for everyone to consider, to reinforce the fact that we are no longer having an abstract discussion about theoretical bad outcomes from policy and rhetoric. We are living through unprecedented events here in the USA.
Our ruling class is currently in the process of imprisoning their political rivals. This is new here. Trump is the most obvious, but others come to mind. The sentences of the January 6 protesters come to mind as straight-out of a banana republic, especially when contrasted against how the ruling class encouraged much more destructive behavior during the BLM riots.
Douglas Mackey, a random guy on twitter who posted the centuries-old political joke of āLOL donāt forget to vote on the wrong day and placeā, is currently facing 10 years in prison for that joke.
This is also happening in the face of dramatic changes to our election system, namely this sudden, widespread adoption of mail-in voting coupled with little to no form of verification. Election day is now election season, with plenty of time and means to ensure the right outcome is reached. There is a reason we donāt have Voter ID, and it isnāt because people donāt want it. Even Democrats want it, yet we donāt have it.
This is the type of thing that youād hear about in Africa when I was a child, and weād be assured that the United Nations is sending peacekeepers in or something.
@usmccds423 While it is encouraging to have a few liberals pointing out the disasters of liberal policies like unlimited illegal immigration and comprehensive tax-funded benefits doesnāt mean the course is correcting itself. I see no changes in the actual policies generating these outcomes. My area hotels are full of some combination of migrants, refugees and mentally-ill drug addicts at the moment, all paid with tax money. This exacerbates our housing shortage and further strains our already-strained system. It is untenable, but thatās been true for many years and no course correction has taken place.
Indeed, Mayor Adams is pointing out the same thing. The policies weāre being subjected to will continue.
And it looks like Covid protocols might be making a comeback. Whoever is puppeteering that demented old ghoul who likes to paw and sniff scared little girls has had him put the mask back on. We canāt do a round 2 on any of it. We will find out soon if they will try anyway.
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Point!