And In Other News Part 2

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Like usual, you’re a pretty big fan of government imposing its will on stuff you disagree with. Most old “conservatives” are. We need government to mandate morality and religion as long as it is the morality and religion I agree with.

[/quote]

Then why are you pro-STATE recognized gay marriage? [/quote]

Ideally marriage would yield no government benefits. It should not. Until that is the issue why would I be for the state mandating who can and cannot benefit based on sexuality?

Why would some people get rights and not others? I’m more deserving of certain rights because I’m straight? That seems like a pretty weird thing for government to determine. You guys can pretend that is the big government point of view, but you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Let’s go to the platform:

“Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.”

Your religious views hold you back from coming to the same conclusion I realize. However I think THAT sounds much more free than let’s have the government decide who can and cannot have rights.

Pointing out this hypocrisy is not a tired ass talking point. It is annoying to people who are anti-freedom.

[quote]H factor wrote:
Ideally marriage would yield no government benefits. [/quote]

So you increased the beneficiaries and helped turn the institution into a right to a government provided stage for expressing individualism? Makes absolutely zero sense!

Until?! You just turned it into a right! Now you think libertarians are going to back it all out?!

Ah, ‘fairness.’ Making the unequal equal. Progressive ideology. The state could have an interest in hetero marriage because–unless you’re an anarchist–even a libertarian could make general welfare arguments for STATE recognized hetero marriage. As in how the reproductive act, between the reproductive sexes, is ordered in society is of critical interest to the general welfare of the nation; socially, economically, criminally, etc. It literally has a massive impact on the wealth, safety, and productivity of the nation.

If heterosexuality disappeared, disaster. Or, if only EVERY biological home wasn’t intact, starting tomorrow, chaos. Homosexuality vanishes tomorrow? Curious news story. You used the government to grow its patrons, with nothing more than progressive emotionalism. You used the grow to try force things to be equal, when their very brute fact nature is anything but equal! That’s progressive ideology. Be honest, you want the government to help normalize homosexuality. Not that you actually believe the two have even remotely the same case/claim to a nation’s interest.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Well shucks, this thread is no longer “And in Other News.”

If we don’t knock it off I’m going to post an R-rated photo of two naked lesbians getting married in a Kansas hot tub by a black woman whose great-great-great-great grandfather couldn’t vote in Mississippi. I’ll follow that up with a report that states local authorities did not arrest the couple for illegally marrying.[/quote]

Ah…oops. Second chance? Please don’t.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Harold, you’re getting a little too emotional. Pipe down or you won’t get any hot tub photos.[/quote]

Are you trying to tell me Push is going to not argue against points and just use personal attacks?

How new and unexpected!

At least you aren’t talking about penises and rectums in this post. Maybe you and C-dog should start your own penis pictures and penis discussion thread.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
It’s amazing the mental gymnastics some will put themselves through to try and make a case for extending the power of the state against personal freedom.[/quote]

Politics is the pursuit of power. A balance must be struck between security and liberty. As threats to national and international security continue to proliferate and become more complex as humanity moves into the 21st century, it stands to reason that expansion of state power is a necessary course of action to maintain order. Ergo, the dilemma is to what degree state power should be expanded.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Ideally marriage would yield no government benefits. [/quote]

So you increased the beneficiaries and helped turn the institution into a right to a government provided stage for expressing individualism? Makes absolutely zero sense!

Until?! You just turned it into a right! Now you think libertarians are going to back it all out?!

Ah, ‘fairness.’ Making the unequal equal. Progressive ideology. The state could have an interest in hetero marriage because–unless you’re an anarchist–even a libertarian could make general welfare arguments for STATE recognized hetero marriage. As in how the reproductive act, between the reproductive sexes, is ordered in society is of critical interest to the general welfare of the nation, socially, economically, criminally, etc. If heterosexuality disappeared disaster. Or, if EVERY biological home wasn’t intact starting tomorrow chaos. Homosexuality vanishes tomorrow? Curious news story. You used the government to grow its patrons, with nothing more than progressive emotionalism. You used the grow to try force things to be equal, when their very brute fact nature is anything but equal! That’s progressive ideology. Be honest, you want the government to help normalize homosexuality. Not that you actually believe the two have even remotely the same case/claim to a nation’s interest.

[/quote]

I didn’t increase anything. What are you talking about? I don’t think you a white Catholic is anymore entitled to anything than me a white agnostic.

How about this start? Let’s take away marriage from religious people. Bam I just decreased the beneficiaries big time. Surely you are in agreement right?

Turned it into a right? What the fuck are you even talking about? I said people should not be denied certain rights simply because they do not fit in with what your precious little old book says is correct.

Then you make a shit ton of claims I never made.

Be honest. You WANT the government to keep certain people who you morally disagree with from having certain benefits simply because you are bothered by what consenting adults do. You want this largely because of your religion which you think should trump other consenting adults viewpoints.

I presented the platform and what I think and you try to shift things into the usual inane (but we need to PROCREATE) option. We are NOT about to run out of people. Homosexual activity is NOT going to keep me from having a baby with my future wife. Why you try to pretend this is the case is beyond me. And how you can be against homosexual marriage on those grounds but be for couples who cannot biologically procreate is also beyond me. I’m assuming you think my niece should not be allowed to marry a man if at some point she cannot have children?

AFTER ALL THE FUTURE OF OUR SOCIETY IS IN JEOPARDY IF EVERYONE ALL OF THE SUDDEN NEVER HAS KIDS.

The sky will definitely be falling soon! Stop those queers quick!

Of course it is easy for you. No one is out there trying to ban you from being able to get married. I don’t agree with Catholicism therefore I don’t think Catholics should be married and I think the government should make sure they can’t.

Yep, that’s a pretty anti-freedom stance to take. It’s a shame your beliefs get in the way from you coming to that easy rational conclusion. You’d be fighting tooth and nail if the shoe was on the other foot. Yet since things have never been that way for you you don’t have to think about it.

[quote]H factor wrote:
I didn’t increase anything. [/quote]

You supported the increase of beneficiaries under a government recognized/structured institution…The same institution you just claimed to want to tear down as a libertarian.

Um, you’re the one that says STATE-recognized marriage should go…[but after swelling its ranks, oddly…]

So you turned having a STATE-RECOGNIZED marriage into a right…

So, where is my post about taking away, say, financial aid from gay students? Sorry, H-factor, I’m the one with an intellectual, conservative and libertarian stance on state recognized marriage. The ordering of reproductive sex has a HUGE impact on the welfare of the nation as a whole. General Welfare. Gay sex doesn’t.

Um, we’re talking about STATE recognized marriage. Not private ceremonies with a Wicca priestess, or Atheist life coach, telling the bride she can kiss the other bride. Go for it.

Well, no. Sorry, but you still have a very narrow understanding. In fact, you’re making my case. As a whole heterosexual will have sex, and when taken as whole, children will still be born. We will procreate regardless, but that’s both good and bad. Putting aside that we may not be procreating adequately anymore to replace ourselves, like much of the West, let’s both agree that we will procreate. The issue is in what manner. How heterosexual sex is ordered has a massive impact on the economic and social (criminality, multigenerational broken homes) health of a nation. Look at you welfare and entitlement roles…So the nation has a critical interest, for the general welfare of the entire public body.

Misrepresentation. See above.

See above. The model is the ordering of the reproductive sexes, so the reproductive act is happening more frequently in intact biological homes. This means seeing more men and women pairing up in committed homes. This means desiring to increase the frequency this model is encountered in everyday life by the opposite sexes. This means that even the infertile man and woman together serves as a model to young single men and women. In fact, your suggestion is counter-productive. Your suggestion would increase the number of uncommitted pairings of the opposite/reproductive sexes encountered, not decrease.

Things you can not possibly disagree with me on.

  1. Man and woman is the smallest reproductive unit. Naturally and spontaneously.
  2. Not just how many (which you only focused on) offspring are produced, but how this happens, in what circumstances it happens (both bio parents, or broken homes) is of critical importance.
  3. Heterosexual sex/the reproductive model, has an irreplaceable and absolutely critical impact on the nation as a whole (general welfare). Heterosexuality vanishes tomorrow, disaster. If we limit it to only intact biological homes vanishing–all remaining fathers stopped marrying the mothers of their children, and raising their own kids–disaster.
  4. Homosexual sex does not. Vanishes tomorrow? A curiosity in the news cycle.

The libertarian case for state recognition of hetero-marriage is easily made through the undeniable impact on the general welfare of the nation. And, if their ideology wasn’t so juvenile and short-sighted, they might see the impact on the nanny state. Again, take a look at the patrons of the nanny state. Knock on some doors in a poor trailer park (my people), or in a ghetto. Ask to speak to the fathers…Take a head count.

So yes, we have a vested interest in how hetero-sex is ordered in society. We don’t with homo-sex.

The only thing you have is emotionalism. That a thing that isn’t even remotely equal, should be declared so by Government. You claim to hold some libertarian ideal of no state recognized marriage, because you know it’ll never happen. You’re safe from seeing it actually transpire. In fact, you helped increased the voters who’d vote against such an action. No, you support it because you want the government to pretend the unequal is equal, out of some progressive sense of “fair.”

[quote]H factor wrote:

AFTER ALL THE FUTURE OF OUR SOCIETY IS IN JEOPARDY IF EVERYONE ALL OF THE SUDDEN NEVER HAS KIDS.

The sky will definitely be falling soon! Stop those queers quick!
[/quote]

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of population geography knows that line of reasoning is inherently flawed. The proliferation of contraceptives is an exponentially greater “threat” to conservatives’ pipedream of American society than homosexuality could ever be.

Sloth good try my man, but completely wrong. This is what I posted which comes from the platform of the Libertarian party. Now quit making strawmen.

“Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.”

Ordered is definitely a good way to put it. You want to see government order certain things in regards to heterosexual sex when it absolutely does not need to do so.

We don’t NEED to incentive heterosexual sex to make it happen. Homosexual sex has NO bearing on heterosexual sex either. In fact I have never had gay sex despite being ok with gay marriage.

Your attempts to argue at what government needs to do are based on nothing rational. Government has no need to do anything in these regards. People had kids before government and they would have kids without government. The things you “fear” (and you actually do fear it) are not based on anything rational whatsoever.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. You support a big government view of marriage.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

AFTER ALL THE FUTURE OF OUR SOCIETY IS IN JEOPARDY IF EVERYONE ALL OF THE SUDDEN NEVER HAS KIDS.

The sky will definitely be falling soon! Stop those queers quick!
[/quote]

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of population geography knows that line of reasoning is inherently flawed. The proliferation of contraceptives is an exponentially greater “threat” to conservatives’ pipedream of American society than homosexuality could ever be. [/quote]

Why let logic and reason get in the way of a good old don’t let gays get married debate? Let’s just talk about the curious news story that would be if homosexual activity stopped for the first time in American history.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Well, no. Sorry, but you still have a very narrow understanding. In fact, you’re making my case. As a whole heterosexual will have sex, and when taken as whole, children will still be born. We will procreate regardless, but that’s both good and bad. Putting aside that we may not be procreating adequately anymore to replace ourselves, like much of the West, let’s both agree that we will procreate. The issue is in what manner. How heterosexual sex is ordered has a massive impact on the economic and social (criminality, multigenerational broken homes) health of a nation. Look at you welfare and entitlement roles…So the nation has a critical interest, for the general welfare of the entire public body.
[/quote]

And this right here is no different from liberals.

Humans cannot be left to their own devices therefore it is important for government to come up with good things for people and mandate certain things. For the general welfare. Just like banning sodas over 20 oz and getting rid of guns.

Let us decide via the government what is best for all.

Precisely the exact same thing “conservatives” bitch about with progressives.

[quote]H factor wrote:
Sloth good try my man, but completely wrong. This is what I posted which comes from the platform of the Libertarian party. Now quit making strawmen.

“Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.” [/quote]

Which is a progressive notion.

There only 2 actual libertarian positions.

  1. The minarchist/anarchist; no state marriages at all; regardless of general welfare.
  2. The state can act where general welfare is concerned. I made that case.

Don’t even. Not when you supported the ordering of homosexual unions.

We’re done. Actually read what you respond to. I clearly dealt with this. It isn’t my concern that it won’t happen. It is my concern THAT IT WILL HAPPEN IN OR OUTSIDE OF INTACT HOMES. The circumstances has a huge impact. Especially on the thing you supposedly want to ‘gradually’ tear down, but know you’re safe from actually ever accomplishing, the nanny state.

Next topic!

Edit: You’re still my pal, though.

Adopted Child Sick Of Gay Parents Forcing Him To Watch Them Have Sex

Seems Palin did know more about Russia than our current Clueless-in- Chief.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

Seems Palin did know more about Russia than our current Clueless-in- Chief.[/quote]

Oh? Russia has invaded Ukraine then?

Sloth: You’re still my pal, but you can’t create notions that don’t exist and pretend they are libertarian. Most Libs are quite clear on the issue and you can’t just invent new positions for them and say well that isn’t Libertarian that is something else here’s what Libertarians should feel.

General welfare is a fancy way of saying we need government to do X, X, X for us. Again the same mindset as we can’t control our soda intake so please help us mother government.

The Libertarian position is government should not treat people differently because it doesn’t have the authority to tell private individuals what they can and cannot do as consenting adults.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Turned it into a right? What the fuck are you even talking about? I said people should not be denied certain rights simply because they do not fit in with what your precious little old book says is correct.

[/quote]

Back up this claim that marriage is a “right” for anyone. It’s surely not in the Bill of Rights. It’s not “inalienable.”

The best you can do is cite the 9th Amendment and to do so one must contend the “right” is hidden therein.

Fact of the matter is marriage is more akin to a privilege…like a driver’s license. The state is free to determine its own rules and policies regarding the granting of driver’s licenses; it can do the same thing with marriage licenses. Sorry, pal, but you don’t have the “right” to drive an automobile – you have a privilege – a privilege that can, rightfully so, be regulated by the state.

All you can really hope to do in this debate, while being intellectually honest, is to admit that you want the regulations loosened in regards to a “privilege.” You want the driving test standards changed so that more people can pass the test, so to speak.

Under our system of federalism I think this is possible on a state by state basis, but this sudden, relatively speaking, clamor to protect and codify this newly discovered “right” is based on emotionalism not facts.

If marriage was a right you wouldn’t need a blood test before marrying.

If marriage was a right you wouldn’t need a license.

If marriage was a right you wouldn’t need fill out any forms.

If marriage was a right you wouldn’t need a justice of the peace or other state sanctioned officer to administrate the proceedings.

I certainly don’t need any of the above to exercise my other inalienable rights, do I?

Bottom line? Don’t conflate rights and privileges.

But go right ahead and lobby on a state by state basis to have the privilege of marriage regulations be loosened.

And the federal government? It should have nuthin to do with it. It’s not a constitutionally enumerated power so it CAN’T (legally).
[/quote]

Picking and choosing and picking and choosing as usual. It’s getting old. Your manipulation of terms to fit your agenda is expected, but quite annoying.

It doesn’t really matter though because state by state eventually this is going to happen sooner rather than later. And then I guess people like you will just have remember the good old days when only people you approved of could get married.

What’s weird is how I never mentioned anything about the federal government and yet for the billionth time you create strawmen for me. Which again is just pretty much expected Push behavior. Sorta like how if we are going to talk about anything gay related you’ll mention cocks and ass because I guess that is important for you to point out what we are talking about?

This has to be scary for you guys though because the way those public opinion polls have shifted you REALIZE it is just a matter of time.

Maybe this has something to do with religion’s slowing numbers as well?