And In Other News Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
You should not be rewarded for going to prison period. This is a slap to the face of all the people working their asses off to pay their way through college while staying out of trouble. It’s not hard to follow the rules and not commit felonies that land you in prison. I understand people make mistakes (and many learn from their mistake and don’t repeat them) but you shouldn’t be rewarded for making one. The only way this would be remotely ok in my opinion was if there was a guaranteed way the money would be paid back to the taxpayers directly from the inmates who used the program. [/quote]

I don’t think we have people going to prison on purpose so they can get an education.

It is probably infinitely better for society for someone who has served prison time to have opportunities for success once they get out than for them to have no opportunities and potentially be right back on track to go back to prison.

It’s not like we are “saving” tax money or anything. Prison is extremely expensive and wouldn’t you rather people who got out had good opportunities than not? I think fiscally opposing job training or education for prisoners is actually counter-productive.

If we are complaining a 4.35 trillion dollar war machine or an education for someone who screwed up? One is cheaper and in my opinion more moral than the other. Your mileage may vary.

In an ideal world you wouldn’t go to prison in the first place, but we must deal with how humans actually are and not with how things would work in rainbow utopia land.

We also have some quite frankly really shitty laws and sentencing.

I’m not for it don’t get me wrong, but I’m probably more for that than a ton of other government things. [/quote]

But why should someone, who very well may have ruined another person’s life while committing a felony, get something valuable for free that the rest of society has to pay to get? I would rather the government create a job program that hired ex-felons than give them something I had to pay for myself. They could rebuild the roads and bridges the politicians love to talk about or clean up the litter that lines our roads and highways. At least then the taxpayers are getting something beneficial out of the deal.
[/quote]

I cleaned up litter on the side of the road for almost a year. I wasn’t paid for it. Didn’t really help me on my resume.

282

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I call it cannibalism. Whether or not they take your money via taxes or via “voluntary” spending, it all ends up in the same people’s pockets. [/quote]

You wrote “voluntary,” so I’m not sure exactly what you mean by it. Taxes and voluntary spending are totally different. Taxes are taken by force, and the taxed have no say in how their money is spent. Money that is voluntarily spent is spent on something that the spender believes will make him better off than the money he spends on it.[/quote]
Key word: believes. Why does he believe that?

Also, you want an iPad, you buy one, voluntarily. If you don’t it’s OK as Apple got LA to buy iPads for its students. Apple got tax payer money whether they bought an iPad or not. That’s my point. Whether it’s through taxes or voluntary consumerism the money ends up in the same place. Rupert Murdoch owns a company that will sell testing software, for pre-K students, and make over a billion dollars. That money comes from tax payers. His company is lobbying for the testing to take place and Obama is OK with it. People think that govt spending and taxes is somehow about the govt taking your money but it’s more about who they are taking it for. The govt isn’t getting rich. Before anyone calls me an anti-corporate socialist, I am not. I am against corporations literally creating public policy and thus controlling how taxes are spent. [/quote]

I agree with this 100%

283

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Centralized command is effectively socialization.[/quote]

So a small landscaping company is socialized because its owner controls it? [/quote]

Control and command are too different things. 1,000 people might control Microsoft, but only say 5 have command, for example.

[/quote]

Most small companies are commanded by a single person. If the owner decides not to work today, his three or four employees don’t work. If he decides to retire, his three or four employees are out of work. He has total command of his company. Does that somehow make small companies socialized?

284

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Centralized command is effectively socialization.[/quote]

So a small landscaping company is socialized because its owner controls it? [/quote]

Control and command are too different things. 1,000 people might control Microsoft, but only say 5 have command, for example.

[/quote]

Most small companies are commanded by a single person. If the owner decides not to work today, his three or four employees don’t work. If he decides to retire, his three or four employees are out of work. He has total command of his company. Does that somehow make small companies socialized?
[/quote]

The concept of centralized command doesn’t, in my opinion, fit closely held business’ in the sense that I am talking about.

285

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The concept of centralized command doesn’t, in my opinion, fit closely held business’ in the sense that I am talking about. [/quote]

Okay, so Microsoft is socialized?

286

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The concept of centralized command doesn’t, in my opinion, fit closely held business’ in the sense that I am talking about. [/quote]

Okay, so Microsoft is socialized?[/quote]

In some ways.

287

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The concept of centralized command doesn’t, in my opinion, fit closely held business’ in the sense that I am talking about. [/quote]

Okay, so Microsoft is socialized?[/quote]

absolutely, in a sense of the word, without question. It is a public company, and the company is owned and operated (by proxy) by the owners. Anyone can be an owner.

However, the difference is the public is voluntarily an owner, and the company has public ownership through its own volition. The government doesn’t require it. The government regulates it, and some of those regulations are good when it comes to public ownership of a company, however, they don’t force it.

288

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
You should not be rewarded for going to prison period. This is a slap to the face of all the people working their asses off to pay their way through college while staying out of trouble. It’s not hard to follow the rules and not commit felonies that land you in prison. I understand people make mistakes (and many learn from their mistake and don’t repeat them) but you shouldn’t be rewarded for making one. The only way this would be remotely ok in my opinion was if there was a guaranteed way the money would be paid back to the taxpayers directly from the inmates who used the program. [/quote]

I don’t think we have people going to prison on purpose so they can get an education.

It is probably infinitely better for society for someone who has served prison time to have opportunities for success once they get out than for them to have no opportunities and potentially be right back on track to go back to prison.

It’s not like we are “saving” tax money or anything. Prison is extremely expensive and wouldn’t you rather people who got out had good opportunities than not? I think fiscally opposing job training or education for prisoners is actually counter-productive.

If we are complaining a 4.35 trillion dollar war machine or an education for someone who screwed up? One is cheaper and in my opinion more moral than the other. Your mileage may vary.

In an ideal world you wouldn’t go to prison in the first place, but we must deal with how humans actually are and not with how things would work in rainbow utopia land.

We also have some quite frankly really shitty laws and sentencing.

I’m not for it don’t get me wrong, but I’m probably more for that than a ton of other government things. [/quote]

But why should someone, who very well may have ruined another person’s life while committing a felony, get something valuable for free that the rest of society has to pay to get? I would rather the government create a job program that hired ex-felons than give them something I had to pay for myself. They could rebuild the roads and bridges the politicians love to talk about or clean up the litter that lines our roads and highways. At least then the taxpayers are getting something beneficial out of the deal.
[/quote]

I cleaned up litter on the side of the road for almost a year. I wasn’t paid for it. Didn’t really help me on my resume.[/quote]

Did it help your work ethic or make you want to aspire for more? Clearly something did since you have worked hard to put yourself in a much improved situation compared to where you started.

Perhaps I didn’t make my point clear enough that I think it is wrong to give someone who has done nothing to deserve it a free education which millions, including me, had to pay for themselves by working. However, creating a job program specifically for felons is certainly more beneficial than releasing them and letting them fend for themselves. I don’t care what job it is as long as they are gainfully employed.

289

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
absolutely, in a sense of the word, without question. It is a public company, and the company is owned and operated (by proxy) by the owners. Anyone can be an owner.

However, the difference is the public is voluntarily an owner, and the company has public ownership through its own volition. The government doesn’t require it. The government regulates it, and some of those regulations are good when it comes to public ownership of a company, however, they don’t force it. [/quote]

I wouldn’t call shareholders the public. I would just call them part-owners. No government regulation is good-at least not efficient.

290

[quote]NickViar wrote:
No government regulation is good-at least not efficient.[/quote]

We will have to agree to disagree here. The government regulation that one cannot murder another (at least outside the womb) a good one.

The regulations on going public are massive, and many of them good, many bad, but many good. One that actually makes things efficient is the public’s reaction to one of the requirements, more than the regulation really, but:

Audited Financials.

291

Zecarlo,

You are equating the government spending money the same way a private investor or entrepreneur would. The terms are not the same. Why ? Because government cannot be fired for incompetence or corruption, while a private sector person can be sued and thrown in jail.

The Ipad program ? You say it’s being paid for by taxpayers ? Yes, but the money was originally borrowed for school construction and renovations, not iPads. A ballot measure passed in 2004 allocated money to improve crumbling schools, but student enrollment slowed down, so there was no need to build more schools. So you are spending $1 Billion smacks, on tech that will be obsolete within 2 years, with no evidence it helps students.

Same thing with High Speed Rail. Voters agreed to a $34 Billion train, going from LA to San Fran in 2 hrs 40 mins. The amended version is well over $100 Billion, will take 4 hrs 50 mins, and the time to completion has been extended by a decade. The funny part is, I can buy a plane ticket for $100, taking 1 hour each way.

If you pulled bullshit like that in the private sector, you would be hauled off to jail in cuffs, and be sued for fraud.

292

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree here. The government regulation that one cannot murder another (at least outside the womb) a good one.

The regulations on going public are massive, and many of them good, many bad, but many good. One that actually makes things efficient is the public’s reaction to one of the requirements, more than the regulation really, but:

Audited Financials. [/quote]

I added “at least not efficient.” That applies even to laws against murder. The government gets to determine what actually constitutes murder. Jack Kevorkian was convicted of murder because he assisted others in committing suicide.

How are government-mandated audits efficient? What kind of idiot would invest in a company that isn’t open about its finances? What kind of idiot would invest in a company that has already proven to be dishonest about its finances?

293

[quote]NickViar wrote:

I added “at least not efficient.” That applies even to laws against murder. The government gets to determine what actually constitutes murder. Jack Kevorkian was convicted of murder because he assisted others in committing suicide.[/quote]

Fair enough.

They are efficient because their is zero ambiguity about their need and disclosure process.

The greatest efficiency however comes from the private sector’s response to the requirement in that a uniform system of rules and requirements for a professional to sign off on an audit has been formulated. Government has tweeked these, but all in all, it is a pretty uniform and efficient system, that allows those who have similar talents to mine to find a career.

294

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Zecarlo,

You are equating the government spending money the same way a private investor or entrepreneur would. The terms are not the same. Why ? Because government cannot be fired for incompetence or corruption, while a private sector person can be sued and thrown in jail.

The Ipad program ? You say it’s being paid for by taxpayers ? Yes, but the money was originally borrowed for school construction and renovations, not iPads. A ballot measure passed in 2004 allocated money to improve crumbling schools, but student enrollment slowed down, so there was no need to build more schools. So you are spending $1 Billion smacks, on tech that will be obsolete within 2 years, with no evidence it helps students.

Same thing with High Speed Rail. Voters agreed to a $34 Billion train, going from LA to San Fran in 2 hrs 40 mins. The amended version is well over $100 Billion, will take 4 hrs 50 mins, and the time to completion has been extended by a decade. The funny part is, I can buy a plane ticket for $100, taking 1 hour each way.

If you pulled bullshit like that in the private sector, you would be hauled off to jail in cuffs, and be sued for fraud.

[/quote]
And Apple was behind Apple getting that deal. That’s my point. Do agricultural rules, laws and regulations benefit Monsanto? Yes, we should all know that by now. And who exactly was behind that? Monsanto.

295

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
NY Governor wants to put taxpayers on the hook to pay for inmates college education. Another brilliant idea from the left.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2014/02/18/cuomo-introduces-initiative-to-let-prisoners-take-college-courses-n1796638[/quote]
Didn’t tax payers pay for AC’s education in prison? Obviously he had the sense to take advantage of it and he, and we, are better off for it. The point being how many inmates are going to take advantage? According to the article it will cost 5k a year per inmate. How much are we already spending per inmate?

I see the anger with people when they have to pay out of pocket or go into debt while inmates will get a free ride but the real anger should be directed at the inflated costs of education. Whether or not a prisoner gets educated won’t change the fact that people are going into debt to pay for college. [/quote]

You are so full of shit. Honestly, what planet do you live on? Please show me the “education” I received in prison. I was barely given access to the library until I was able to get my security classification changed from Maximum to Medium. I was not even given to opportunity to get my GED while I was incarcerated. Build another straw man, asshole.[/quote]
I thought you learned a trade or something in prison.

296

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
It’s not hard to follow the rules and not commit felonies that land you in prison. [/quote]

Pretend for a moment that you are sixteen…

Sorry for the novel. [/quote]
It’s easy for someone on the outside to say it’s easy to do to or not do something, and I was probably like that at one point, but once I started working in the inner city and later, when I lived in one briefly, I really saw that it isn’t that easy.

297

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
NY Governor wants to put taxpayers on the hook to pay for inmates college education. Another brilliant idea from the left.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2014/02/18/cuomo-introduces-initiative-to-let-prisoners-take-college-courses-n1796638[/quote]
Didn’t tax payers pay for AC’s education in prison? Obviously he had the sense to take advantage of it and he, and we, are better off for it. The point being how many inmates are going to take advantage? According to the article it will cost 5k a year per inmate. How much are we already spending per inmate?

I see the anger with people when they have to pay out of pocket or go into debt while inmates will get a free ride but the real anger should be directed at the inflated costs of education. Whether or not a prisoner gets educated won’t change the fact that people are going into debt to pay for college. [/quote]

You are so full of shit. Honestly, what planet do you live on? Please show me the “education” I received in prison. I was barely given access to the library until I was able to get my security classification changed from Maximum to Medium. I was not even given to opportunity to get my GED while I was incarcerated. Build another straw man, asshole.[/quote]
I thought you learned a trade or something in prison. [/quote]

No, my friend. The great state of Maryland did not see fit to do anything other than watch with amusement as several inmates attempted to rape me on several occasions. I have had officers watch me get stabbed.

The did not allow me to even get my GED while I was in prison - in fact they confiscated the materials several times because they are dicks…

I learned a trade because I got a job doing landscaping and met a guy who helped me get a job as a painter. Then I met a contractor who took me on as a form carpenter, got into finish carpentry work and met a union electrician apprentice while building the Redskins stadium. This electrician apprentice had a daddy who owned an electrical contracting business and hired me because his son vouched for me. I then worked as a helper for several years before finally being accepted into the apprenticeship. I graduated the apprenticeship at the top of my class and became a foreman shortly after that.

The state didn’t give me shit.

298

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
It’s easy for someone on the outside to say it’s easy to do to or not do something,…it isn’t that easy. [/quote]

I’m always suprised how certain people are of how they will respond to situations they have never been in. I’ve always written it off to pretentiousness and limited life experience.

299

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
You should not be rewarded for going to prison period. This is a slap to the face of all the people working their asses off to pay their way through college while staying out of trouble. It’s not hard to follow the rules and not commit felonies that land you in prison. I understand people make mistakes (and many learn from their mistake and don’t repeat them) but you shouldn’t be rewarded for making one. The only way this would be remotely ok in my opinion was if there was a guaranteed way the money would be paid back to the taxpayers directly from the inmates who used the program. [/quote]

I don’t think we have people going to prison on purpose so they can get an education.

It is probably infinitely better for society for someone who has served prison time to have opportunities for success once they get out than for them to have no opportunities and potentially be right back on track to go back to prison.

It’s not like we are “saving” tax money or anything. Prison is extremely expensive and wouldn’t you rather people who got out had good opportunities than not? I think fiscally opposing job training or education for prisoners is actually counter-productive.

If we are complaining a 4.35 trillion dollar war machine or an education for someone who screwed up? One is cheaper and in my opinion more moral than the other. Your mileage may vary.

In an ideal world you wouldn’t go to prison in the first place, but we must deal with how humans actually are and not with how things would work in rainbow utopia land.

We also have some quite frankly really shitty laws and sentencing.

I’m not for it don’t get me wrong, but I’m probably more for that than a ton of other government things. [/quote]

But why should someone, who very well may have ruined another person’s life while committing a felony, get something valuable for free that the rest of society has to pay to get? I would rather the government create a job program that hired ex-felons than give them something I had to pay for myself. They could rebuild the roads and bridges the politicians love to talk about or clean up the litter that lines our roads and highways. At least then the taxpayers are getting something beneficial out of the deal.
[/quote]

I cleaned up litter on the side of the road for almost a year. I wasn’t paid for it. Didn’t really help me on my resume.[/quote]

Did it help your work ethic or make you want to aspire for more? Clearly something did since you have worked hard to put yourself in a much improved situation compared to where you started.

Perhaps I didn’t make my point clear enough that I think it is wrong to give someone who has done nothing to deserve it a free education which millions, including me, had to pay for themselves by working. However, creating a job program specifically for felons is certainly more beneficial than releasing them and letting them fend for themselves. I don’t care what job it is as long as they are gainfully employed.
[/quote]

I agree that an employment program would be beneficial. It’s better than nothing.

As for my work ethic and motivation are concerned, I am intrinsically motivated person by nature. I am a survivor. I see patterns and figure out how to benefit from them. I knew that, as a felon, I HAD to work twice as hard as everyone else and study twice as hard because I had that strike against me already. I would never be “average”, I’d be “that guy that did time, better watch him so he doesn’t steal from you”. I had no choice but to be excellent in my profession. I knew I probably wouldn’t be accepted in the apprenticeship right away, until construction began to boom and they really needed people. So I was patient. I lived beneath my means and saved my money for a rainy day.

I networked obsessively because I learned early on that often it’s not what you know, but who you know that really matters. So I built valuable relationships that have been very beneficial to my career. But I always backed it up with my ability. Eventually you provide enough value and enough time passes from your felony that your reputation and experience matter more than your past. But there are still some facilities in my area that I’m not allowed to work on, even after 20 years. But I don’t focus on those kind of jobs - I focus on the companies and jobs that I CAN work on and succeed at.

Prison didn’t “teach” me anything other than to spot trouble a mile away and to read people and know when they are fucking with me or have an angle. That’s about it.

300

AC is right.

There are very few programs in prison to help someone, even if they want it. Sure you can get your GED if you didn’t finish high school, but outside of that, you are on your own pursuing more education. The choice will be yours as to if you want to improve yourself, and how you go about doing that.

As far as jobs, it’s most menial shit, cleaning up trash or removing graffiti. The minimum security place I stayed at had a dog training program, but it didn’t amount to much more than people cleaning up dog shit on the yard throughout the day. It made the place more mellow, but minimum security is already like day camp for adults.

If the facility you are housed in even has a library, it’s pretty minimal. You are talking about mostly ragged books, some dictionaries, and maybe some encyclopedia collections always missing certain sections. Out of the 10 places I visited on my Federal vacation, none had a computer and only 1 had a typewriter.

Most of these people were preparing for their next crime honestly. It is hard to tell the drug dealer who made $100k cash on a drug deal which took 10 minutes, to go on the straight and narrow working an honorable job.