Where are all those medical experts who professionaly cure religion ?
I have a mother in law who could need such a service.
[quote]
Few truly intelligent people believe in sky fairies, myself included.[/quote]
Fairies do exist.
Ask Robert Louis Stevenson.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
That is by and large why while fun arguments about whether to believe are fruitless. People engage only to bring someone to their world view not with a sincere interest in the others position. It would take something incredible to make me a believer and it most certainly wouldn’t come from a person of an opposing world view. To make me believe in something like YEC it would take god himself coming down and telling me so…no longer faith at this time but whatever thats what it would take. And people in the opposing world view don’t come over from what secular proponents present. It takes an internal shift of belief systems to make such a change occur.
That being said I think its why the secular view is pretty much assured to become the dominant view at least in the western world. Even many people that proclaim they are Christians adhere to a secular view of the world. They don’t live at all as if they have a religious view of the world. What do I care what they call themselves if they hold the same world view as I and act like I do. They are already the same group they just make their religion ok with the way they view the world.[/quote]
This is good. I agree. No human even a Christian can save you. It is only God that can do that. As Christians we are only called to tell you about Jesus and His Good News. That Good News is that even being a sinner he can save you from your sins. You either believe Jesus made a way, through his death and resurrection, to God or you don’t. It is so easy to say, but to actually grasp is a different thing in and of it self. It is a free gift, but once accepted will cost you everything, but you will give it all freely. I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I am willingly giving him everything, and he continues to bless me with more than I could ever give him.
People do not like to hear how Christians found Jesus, but that is all we have to tell. Our story is now part of His Story. Even though I am saved by the blood of Jesus I am still a sinner and continue to sin daily. It is my human nature to sin. I am no better than anyone else. I am only saved by His Grace.[/quote]
That is half of my point. I’d argue it the other way though. That someone so misguided as to deeply believe such a fantasy needs to come to the realization on their own that it is a fantasy. And barring them doing it on their own I can give arguments to support what I believe but I by no means think it will bring them to reality. To finally put aside fear and live is something one has to do on ones own. But its simply the other direction of your point which is what I meant as well though I’d phrase the acceptance of Christianity differently than being saved.
[/quote]
I respect that.
Zig Ziglar used an acronym for FEAR. False Evidence Appearing Real. Fear is used by some in Christianity, because fear is a motivating feeling, and they are doing nothing more than giving a sales pitch. I am not a big fan of using fear. I fear God, but not because he has the right to send me to Hell for my sins, because He does. That is where the term saved comes from. Jesus saves us from Hell and from our sins. I am a big proponent of allowing God through the Holy Spirit to change someones heart. I believe if you ask God to give you the truth he will do it. I also question God all the time, and there is nothing wrong with that. I have faith that God knows what is best for me, so when I want God to do something and he chooses to say, “No, I want this for you.” Then, I am faithful to listen to him.[/quote]
I was meaning more that its a big fearful thing to think this is it. Nothing more. Not so much that scare tactics were being employed in the modern churches. Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God probably wouldn’t fly much anymore anyways.
[quote]robstein wrote:
So you’re saying that everyone, EVERYONE who lived before jesus, is guilty of worshiping a false god? >>>[/quote]Not the Jews. (when they were being good, which wasn’t all that often) They were the keepers of the covenants and promises of God, all leading to the THEIR messiah. Jesus of Nazareth was not a groovadelic commune leader. He was and IS the second person of the eternal Godhead made flesh in order to bring to full fruition all of the promises of God going all the way back actually to Genesis 3, but especially to the covenant with Abraham beginning in Genesis 12. All men (and women), including you and I are born dead in father Adam. Those who are born again by faith in Jesus Christ, the last Adam (1st Corinthians 15), are given His very life, bought for them on His cross and wrought for them in His resurrection from their death which He suffered in their place. No. You don’t get to pick a different way. No, I can’t prove that to you and no, God is not desperate that you believe that either. I can demonstrate to you that this God I worship is the ground and basis of every last thought you think, even your most vile denunciations of Him. That’s what makes you a criminal. Comment in one of those three threads please and I will copy and paste all the appropriate posts I’ve already written. Actually it’s all there. I’ll just link you to the pages. What I am telling you now IS THE historic gospel, a term that means “good news”, of Jesus Christ. The pathetic pleading, hand wringing Jesus of modern America, begging people to believe in him so they can be happy is not the one I’m talkin about.
[quote]dmaddox wrote: This is good. I agree. No human even a Christian can save you. It is only God that can do that. As Christians we are only called to tell you about Jesus and His Good News. That Good News is that even being a sinner he can save you from your sins. You either believe Jesus made a way, through his death and resurrection, to God or you don’t. It is so easy to say, but to actually grasp is a different thing in and of it self. It is a free gift, but once accepted will cost you everything, but you will give it all freely. I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I am willingly giving him everything, and he continues to bless me with more than I could ever give him.
People do not like to hear how Christians found Jesus, but that is all we have to tell. Our story is now part of His Story. Even though I am saved by the blood of Jesus I am still a sinner and continue to sin daily. It is my human nature to sin. I am no better than anyone else. I am only saved by His Grace.[/quote]Very good D. I didn’t see this until just now.
haha, “the jews (when they were being good, which wasn’t all that often).” Because the crusades and inquisitions that killed tens of thousands of people in the name of jesus was pretty righteous wouldn’t you say? “You don’t believe in my god? Then I’ll kill you!” Yes, very christian indeed.
Tiribulus, what about the sections of the bible that promote slavery and say it’s ok for a master to beat their slave? It’s in the bible, so it must be ok, right? Or, since EVERYTHING that happens is gods will, what about the priests who molest children? Is that gods will also?
EDIT:
[quote]robstein wrote:
Tiribulus, what about the sections of the bible that promote slavery and say it’s ok for a master to beat their slave? It’s in the bible, so it must be ok, right? Or, since EVERYTHING that happens is gods will, what about the priests who molest children? Is that gods will also? [/quote]
You asked about gods before Christ. Those are the “Jews” I was talking about. God’s covenant people Israel.
Put yourself in our position man. You are like literally the 100th person asking these literally EXACT same questions. That’s not an indictment or an insult against you personally, it’s man’s nature to ask these kinds of things which explains why you’re like the 100th guy to do it. The book we call “the bible” is a collection of ancient writings written over a period of about 1500 years, by about 40 different human authors on the other side of the world ending about 2000 years ago. IT IS NOT possible to pick it up, read for 5 minutes and come to an accurate understanding of what it teaches about a subject like slavery and MANY others. There are numerous significant language and cultural barriers requiring actual WORK in order to accurately grasp what it says on many subjects. Don’t misunderstand. There are plenty of things in the bible that are disturbing especially to modern westerners to say the least. I am not somebody you will find explaining away or whitewashing what the text ACTUALLY says once we’re sure it says it which is the next point. Much of what is advanced as biblical teaching by irresponsible critics IS total butchery based on uneducated ignorance and plain malicious intent.
Some IS truly what it says. There IS slavery in the bible, but it bears pretty much zero resemblance to what we had in the American, especially south. ZEEROH. This requires study, plain and simple.
Nobody hates Roman Catholicism more than I do whch is NOT the same thing as hating Catholic people. Lets get that outta the way. I do love truth however more than I hate Catholicism and you will also not find me gratuitously and irresponsibly bashing that church. Their problem as I see it is their view of her own place and authority in the world. Not primarily pedophile priests or even the coverups which are undeniable. EVERY religious body has abominable hypocritical specimens in their midst including ones with which I share much theological agreement. As a percentage of total membership and clergy Rome is not any worse than anybody else and public school teachers have them beat by a mile. Welcome to a world dead in sin. Looooong story here.
The bottom line and to briefly answer your question, I refer back to my post in this very thread on page one:
[quote]The mere act of asking the question is to have already allowed for the possibility of the existence of a god other than the true and living God which is idolatry. Inadvertent though it probably is. God, that is, THE God, who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, is Himself the standard by which ALL things are measured. That means when he commands Joshua to kill every man, women, child and beast in Canaan that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that when he causes Israel to eat their own children as reported in Jeremiah 19 that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed all of the horrific human misery, suffering and death in all of history that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed the existence of billions of human beings for the expressed purpose of casting them into the lake of fire in judgement for sin that He also decreed that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that if He has purposed that everything we consider to be bad, immoral and unthinkably terrible shall be so ordered by divine mechanisms known only to Himself, to His own glory for reasons sufficient unto Himself that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good.
It also means that His not caring one bit how you (or I) feel about that is most assuredly PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. I sleep like a baby knowing that every time I hear about some gut wrenching blood curdling act of barbaric depravity that my Father God has from eternity seen fit to assign purpose to it that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. IF IT WERE MY OWN FAMILY? You ask? Most ESPECIALLY then would I fall to my knees and worship Him knowing that evil has NOT triumphed, but that a PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just, good AND LOVING God who calls me brother, bride and son though I myself belong in that lake of fire will receive honor and glory by my praising His name while the world loses it’s collective mind. EveryTHING and everyONE belongs to HIM. His exaltation and glory IS the purpose of all that is. No more PERFECT purpose could ever exist.
Any other questions? [/quote]
Man questioning God was the very first sin and it remains to this day the basis of all others. That’s why we do it. That’s why I still do it sometimes. To go along with D ,I do not serve this God out of fear. No sir. I serve him out of love. I adore Him and worship Him for the beautiful magnificent sovereign king and creator that He is. He has shown me, at my request, what I am in comparison to Himself and what it cost Him to fix me. There is nothing I am and nothing I have that I would deny Him. They’re both His anyway.
Here is a post of mine from somebody’s blog:
[quote]What people want is a God created in their own image. One who contritely conforms to their fallen and creaturely notions of good, evil, right and wrong. Who have exalted themselves as de facto dictator of the universe demanding that God conduct Himself in a manner worthy of their own subjective morality. Some will have their hearts returned and say with Nebuchadnezzar:
"blessed [is] the Most High, and praised and honored [is] him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?” Daniel 4:34b-35
We donâ??t like that. “WHO AND WHAT DOES THIS GOD THINK HE IS!!!”
Nebuchadnezzar learned the hard way. God KNOWS who and what He is. He also KNOWS who and what YOU are. Your very first step is agreeing with Him on both.[/quote]
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Yes, I can see how this would be up for interpretation. Slavery is slavery man, how can you say it didn’t resemble what we had in the US? It’s EXACTLY the same.
[quote]robstein wrote:
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Yes, I can see how this would be up for interpretation. Slavery is slavery man, how can you say it didn’t resemble what we had in the US? It’s EXACTLY the same. [/quote]
A brief reply, what you cited was an example of case law and case law doesn’t always describe what is ideal. What is described in the Pentateuch is actually closer to the indentured servitude people got themselves into to moving to America than the antebellum southern slavery. It would happen when one was so poor he sold himself into servitude for 7 years to pay his debts and at the seventh year was required to be set free. The “indentured servant” had the same standing under the law as the man meaning if the man committed murder he was to be put to death. Also there is a law that if a servant escaped from his cruel owner one isn’t to return him back but to help him out. Even though case law isn’t ideal, in the second scenario the owner isn’t punished since it is assumed that he really didn’t want to do him harm since he payed for his services.
There was also slavery that resulted from nations conquered where God didn’t require their extermination upon defeat. There are guidelines for their humane treatment and management as well. The practice of hunting and breeding men and women of a different race for the purpose of high level low cost labor was no part of God’s law or command. I can help ya out if you want to find some stuff that will REALLY make you hate the bible. Don’t waste time on slavery. There’s far “worse” Than that. See I’m in a discussion right now on another site where we’re talking to a woman who has been in church her whole life and has just read the law and the prophets for the first time and is like “GAAAAASP, I NEVER KNEW!!! I CAN"T LOVE A GOD LIKE THIS!!! I’M LEAVIN CHRISTIANITY!!”. Forgetting the immediate theological questions that raises, it’s tragic and unnecessary. We tell people right up front. “God is God n you ain’t. If you don’t like that you in the wrong church. There’s plenty of bible butchering houses of liberal heresy out there who will be glad to let you believe whatever you want and call it the gospel”.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
See I’m in a discussion right now on another site where we’re talking to a woman who has been in church her whole life and has just read the law and the prophets for the first time and is like “GAAAAASP, I NEVER KNEW!!! I CAN"T LOVE A GOD LIKE THIS!!! I’M LEAVIN CHRISTIANITY!!”.[/quote]
Just wondering if shes like this taking it in its proper context or taking her own presumptions to the text.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
See I’m in a discussion right now on another site where we’re talking to a woman who has been in church her whole life and has just read the law and the prophets for the first time and is like “GAAAAASP, I NEVER KNEW!!! I CAN"T LOVE A GOD LIKE THIS!!! I’M LEAVIN CHRISTIANITY!!”.[/quote]
Just wondering if shes like this taking it in its proper context or taking her own presumptions to the text.[/quote]It’s not about one particular thing. It’s also a long story, but some of each. She both doesn’t know the Word despite 30 years in church AND at this point I doubt would accept even sound exposition of what ARE indeed tough passages and principles at first. I’m grateful God taught me this early on in my walk.
She has I suspect NOT been in the Word herself as the statement of soteriology from her church sounds better than most, leading me to wonder how she could have literally no idea of the role of Israel, the law and the historic covenants along with God’s judgement of Israel’s unfaithfulness to them in the saga of sin and redemption. NONE. As in like nonexistent. She keeps ending posts after quoting some OT passage like Deuteronomy 25:11-12 with the phrase “IS THAT ACCEPTABLE TO YOU!?!?!?” As if that’s the question. This is a more liberal than I like, but still professedly Calvinistic blog which now has her investigating predestination and election all aghast at the idea of God’s sovereignty as if reformed theology just started last week. Actually I think she and the Lord will be fine eventually even though SHE doesn’t think so right now. I’ll tell you more offline. I don’t wanna get too sidetracked here.
How do you know that you’re not idoling a false god now? What if 300 years from now the REAL religion is revealed, and you’ve been in trouble this whole time? The fact that billions of people, and civilizations that have been around for THOUSANDS of years, that you just dismiss them as worshipping a “false” god. Their lives, traditions, beliefs that you hold just as near to you, based on nothing, say your book is right and theirs is wrong.
If you answer anything other than “there is no way to know that,” then I pray to whatever is up there that you are forgiven for your supreme ignorance.
[quote]robstein wrote:
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Yes, I can see how this would be up for interpretation. Slavery is slavery man, how can you say it didn’t resemble what we had in the US? It’s EXACTLY the same. [/quote]
lol how does this passage “promote” slavery? Do you know what the word “promote” means? Regulating something doesn’t necessarily indicate that the authority in question approves of the practice, let alone it actually promoting it (i.e., encouraging it’s practice). Does the government “promote” abortion, or merely provide a means by which it can be engaged in most humanely?
For the record, while this verse (which you undoubtedly googled, likely after seeing an episode of “It’s Always Sunny”) certainly seems strange to modern minds, if you read it in the larger literary context of the Pentateuch (as well as the historical and cultural context of the ancient Near East), you would see that the underlying explanatory idea here is providence. For the ancient Israelites, if someone died immediately from wounds sustained, the person who attacked the other was responsible for their death. If, however, someone lived on for a time before dying, the assumption was that, since God did not see fit to heal that person, his death could not be blamed on the one who killed him. Now that certainly doesn’t fly with your worldview, but it made perfect sense in theirs. And the stunning thing is, the slave in ancient Israel under Exodus 21:20-21 had MORE rights than elsewhere in the ancient Near East; Israel was unique for punishing a man for killing his own slave.
Two other quick points…
Slavery ISN’T slavery; there have been different forms of slavery throughout history. The type of slavery referred to here in Exodus 21 is again indentured servitude, and it was one of the only options people had to pay off their debts in the ancient world. Moreover, in Israel, slaves were released after a certain period of time. What’s discussed in Exodus 21 isn’t the same practice as taking someone from their homeland and forcing them to work for the rest of their lives for someone else’s profit. You need to spend some time studying history before your start critiquing a book you can’t possibly interpret without such knowledge.
While we see beating a human being at all as inherently wrong, they didn’t have police officers or other forms of legal recourse to guarantee that indentured servants would fulfill their duties; physical punishments were some of the only options available.
No, I haven’t seen “It’s Always Sunny,” I googled “bad bible quotes” and came up with a whole lot of em. Maybe I should have used the word “enabled,” but I’m glad you are taking the opportunity to improve my lexicon while justifying the ability for a person to kill another person.
I’ve decided attempting to have logical conversations with people who don’t believe in logic is a more frustrating endeavor than I’m willing to put up with, have a great weekend all.
[quote]robstein wrote:<<< I’ve decided attempting to have logical conversations with people who don’t believe in logic is a more frustrating endeavor than I’m willing to put up with, have a great weekend all.[/quote]Now ya jist had ta go n do that didn’t ya? Don’t believe in logic he says LOL!!! Rather than run off assuming that you’ve somehow justified your worldview here, why don’t you take a moment and comment in one of those three threads I linked to about how and why logic works for you and not for Christians. You can do that right?
[quote]robstein wrote:
How do you know that you’re not idoling a false god now? What if 300 years from now the REAL religion is revealed, and you’ve been in trouble this whole time? The fact that billions of people, and civilizations that have been around for THOUSANDS of years, that you just dismiss them as worshipping a “false” god. Their lives, traditions, beliefs that you hold just as near to you, based on nothing, say your book is right and theirs is wrong.
If you answer anything other than “there is no way to know that,” then I pray to whatever is up there that you are forgiven for your supreme ignorance. [/quote]
Someone who uses words like “idoling” (it’s idolizing) and composes incoherent sentences like the above claims to be a beacon of logical thought? 2/3 of the statements above aren’t even complete sentences! Carelessness in writing is symptomatic of a general carelessness in thought; you are certainly a shining example of that maxim.
If you don’t subscribe to a particular faith (and thus do not possess any revelation of the divine being’s nature), on what grounds do you assume this being even cares about a human’s “supreme ignorance?”
[quote]robstein wrote:
Actually, I seek knowledge every day, practical knowledge. Like how the universe was actually created, and science. I think about these things every day. Worthy of the death I live in now? Now, that makes no sense. Literally no sense. We all live in sin because someone ate an apple that an all powerful being told them not to eat? That makes sense to you?
Additionally, no one has answered one of my questions. What if you were born somewhere else, and told a completely different story. If you never, ever heard about jesus and whatever else you believe, and instead were born into a family of a different practicing religion, or a different time period, who believed just as deeply. Then, you would be just as enthusiastic about a different god, no? What if you were born in ancient Greece and believed in zeus and poseidon, and you never heard the name jesus in your entire life? [/quote]
Your question is “what if;” that’s literally all you’ve asked, and that’s not a complete thought. What’s your point? How does the fact that other metanarratives have been told throughout history, some even before the Judeo-Christian narratives were told, undermine the truth of the Judeo-Christian one? For someone who claims to love logic, you don’t seem capable of recognizing an extremely clear fallacy - the truth of an account doesn’t depend on its antiquity.
So what is your point? I live in the United States, where I have the freedom AND opportunity to examine the truth claims of various religions and choose among them. I don’t believe in one simply because my parent’s did, so I don’t understand what your point is.
[quote]robstein wrote:
I would think god, whatever it is, would want everyone to be happy, get along and be good people to each other, and make the most of the blessing that is life. If god wants war, hunger, kids to be shot and you-better-worship-me-and-no-one-else, he an asshole.[/quote]
And WHY would you think that? Almost NO religion advocated that their gods cared AT ALL about humanity in general before the rise of Judaism and Christianity. Everything you think “god” would want derives from your Western heritage, which has been profoundly shaped by Judeo-Christian ethics. Once you deny the existence of THAT god, what grounds do you have for positing his unique characteristics on whatever deity there may be?
And on grounds do you call life “a blessing?” I’m not even talking about the fact that the word “blessing” itself implies a “blesser;” I’m referring to the utterly arbitrary nature of characterizing “life” in positive terms given its inherent and inescapable suffering. Read some Schopenhauer; he’ll wake you up. There is nothing inherently “worthwhile” about living; you’re just too caught up in the comforts of existence to recognize that.
You should take a logic course; I think prep or classical schools still offer those to their 8th graders.
[quote]robstein wrote:
In many of my experiences, the people that seem to be the least tolerant and accepting are also those who believe so deeply in their religion that they place that blind belief over the value of their fellow man. And that halts the progress of the human race.[/quote]
Yay - Captain Logic continues to spit in his eponym’s eye by providing truth claims without justification!
On what grounds do you assume “your fellow man” has any value at all?
What is the human race “progressing” toward? Enlighten us about the nature of our telos; who says we are progressing toward anything at all, let alone anything good?