An Imperfect God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]cryogen wrote:<<< I am pretty sure I don’t hate anyone because of their religion. Telling someone that they should get some help, professional medical help, because they believe in imaginary friends in adulthood is generous, not hatefilled.

Few truly intelligent people believe in sky fairies, myself included. Whether or not a lot of people believe something has little to no impact on the accuracy of the position. As a result, the fact that there are a lot of stupid people in the world who believe in fanciful sky daddies doesn’t actually support the idea that this shared hallucination is accurate.

I mean shit, people are dumb enough to believe that Joseph Smith found some gold tablets and that L Ron Hubbard had some inside knowledge. These two are convicted fraudsters and confidence artists, and yet their claims are no more believable than christianity or judaism.

Religion deserves contempt, not respect.[/quote]You seem intelligent enough. I don’t need you to be stupid to be wrong. In fact the more brilliant somebody is the more potential they have for truly spectacular error. Nobody is wronger than a towering genius dead in sin. The faster the car the gorier the accident. Add some education and it’s a 50 yard debris field. Quite honestly the trouble I have with guys like you is you’re way too much fun. Seriously. I sometimes catch myself toying with you out of self amusement rather than acting like an ambassador of Christ who’s mission it is to represent my gracious loving master. I’m guessing you glanced at those threads for a couple minutes and decided they were beneath you?

102

No, I read them all and concluded that they were beneath our entire species.

The thing about the post that you so graciously fixed for me, is that now it is incorrect.

God doesn’t exist, and this is the only conclusion available to us on the available evidence, and so therefor does not deserve respect any more so than the teapot at the centre of the universe.

You imply your superiority in your last post, yet you are indeed the plaything here, not the player.

103

[quote]cryogen wrote:No, I read them all and concluded that they were beneath our entire species. >>>[/quote] Excellent. You should have no problem picking one of them then and dazzling us with your galactic acumen. I’ll be sincerely looking forward to it. [quote]cryogen wrote:<<< The thing about the post that you so graciously fixed for me, is that now it is incorrect. >>>[/quote] That was D, not me. Simple oversight. Happens to the best of us. You’re forgiven. [quote]cryogen wrote:<<< God doesn’t exist, and this is the only conclusion available to us on the available evidence, and so therefor does not deserve respect any more so than the teapot at the centre of the universe. >>>[/quote] That’s a postulation. Not an argument. I’ll be humbly anticipating your first substantive post which should be a swift and decisive dismissal of my God. Don’t lemme down now. [quote]cryogen wrote:<<< You imply your superiority in your last post, yet you are indeed the plaything here, not the player.[/quote] Oh I’m not superior to anybody. Far from it. I do however think you’re the latest in a long parade of cocky kids who come stumbling through here with a head the size of Greenland and who vastly underestimate those they disagree with. I have thousands of posts here and I linked you to three threads where conversations along these lines have already happened. It’s your turn Mr. Player. Come play with your plaything. If we ever did get off the ground you’d see soon enough that my goal with people like you is not to win a debate. No sir. It is simply to use the equipment He’s given me to His glory by making you think in categories you never have before that WILL put you face to face with your King. Actually you already are… oh nevermind.

104

One can have faith that 2 plus 2 equals 5, but that doesn’t mean it is. If you were told a different story of creationism, or were born in a country that believed in a different god or religion, you’d believe that one and would feel just as strongly about it. These are stories that are meant to guide people but instead people translate them literally. What about civilizations that were around for thousands of years before jesus?

THOUSANDS of years before jesus, what about their gods? In my opinion, people that put blind faith, so much blind faith in a story they hear, with no more evidence than any other story, is incredibly scary. There is no more proof of god’s existence than there is a flying spaghetti monster. Yet one can look through god color glasses and say, “this good thing that happened to me is a gift from god,” rather than “this good thing happened to me today.”

Or when something bad happens and people say “it’s gods will” as a method of coping. What a cop out when a tragedy like Newtown happens and people say, “god needed angels, it was his will.” I’m sorry, but if god thought 20 kids needed to be gunned down he’s a jerk. At the very least, if there is actually a god, to presume to know what he wants is even more ridiculous.

Personally I believe that SOMETHING created the entire universe, and that’s it. To think that a super being created the universe specifically for the earth when there are trillions of other planets is silly, literally silly. To think that a man can live inside a fish for 3 days is silly, and to ask “are you questioning my faith” is not the response. No, I’m not questioning your faith in god, I’m questioning your intelligence if you think a man can live inside a fish for 3 days and that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Now, bring on the wave of religious zealots saying they’re sorry for me because I don’t believe in a story that sounds like it came out of a True Blood episode. We’re all allowed our opinions, no?

105

Every single syllable you typed in this post Robstein has been addressed time without number here. Your simplistic caricatures and general ignorance is typical. I suspect you are pretty much like Cryogen and not really interested in answers, but quite content in your unbelief. Have a nice life. And btw, I don’t feel sorry for you at all. You’re a criminal. Just like me.

Worthy of the death you live in now (yes that makes perfect sense) and the one coming to all who enter the final court of your King without the passover blood of His sacrificial lamb. I would very much prefer you as my brother in Christ and would do anything I could in obedience to Him to help that happen, but I do not feel sorry for you. That’s the wrong way to state it. In my case anyway. You will probably have no trouble finding church goers who meet your unbiblical caricatures.

Do feel free of course to add something of substance to any of those threads.

106

Actually, I seek knowledge every day, practical knowledge. Like how the universe was actually created, and science. I think about these things every day. Worthy of the death I live in now? Now, that makes no sense. Literally no sense. We all live in sin because someone ate an apple that an all powerful being told them not to eat? That makes sense to you?

Additionally, no one has answered one of my questions. What if you were born somewhere else, and told a completely different story. If you never, ever heard about jesus and whatever else you believe, and instead were born into a family of a different practicing religion, or a different time period, who believed just as deeply. Then, you would be just as enthusiastic about a different god, no? What if you were born in ancient Greece and believed in zeus and poseidon, and you never heard the name jesus in your entire life?

107

[quote]robstein wrote:
One can have faith that 2 plus 2 equals 5, but that doesn’t mean it is. If you were told a different story of creationism, or were born in a country that believed in a different god or religion, you’d believe that one and would feel just as strongly about it. These are stories that are meant to guide people but instead people translate them literally. What about civilizations that were around for thousands of years before jesus?

THOUSANDS of years before jesus, what about their gods? In my opinion, people that put blind faith, so much blind faith in a story they hear, with no more evidence than any other story, is incredibly scary. There is no more proof of god’s existence than there is a flying spaghetti monster. Yet one can look through god color glasses and say, “this good thing that happened to me is a gift from god,” rather than “this good thing happened to me today.”

Or when something bad happens and people say “it’s gods will” as a method of coping. What a cop out when a tragedy like Newtown happens and people say, “god needed angels, it was his will.” I’m sorry, but if god thought 20 kids needed to be gunned down he’s a jerk. At the very least, if there is actually a god, to presume to know what he wants is even more ridiculous.

Personally I believe that SOMETHING created the entire universe, and that’s it. To think that a super being created the universe specifically for the earth when there are trillions of other planets is silly, literally silly. To think that a man can live inside a fish for 3 days is silly, and to ask “are you questioning my faith” is not the response. No, I’m not questioning your faith in god, I’m questioning your intelligence if you think a man can live inside a fish for 3 days and that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Now, bring on the wave of religious zealots saying they’re sorry for me because I don’t believe in a story that sounds like it came out of a True Blood episode. We’re all allowed our opinions, no?[/quote]

Certainly and our opinions and upper level beliefs like religion are based entirely on someone’s core beliefs or world view. The upper level beliefs are almost completely malleable to fit someones core world view. It is very difficult to change a world view and I’d claim its certainly not going to come from external pressure. People will mold their religion or atheism to how they see the world. It doesn’t matter what a particular text or their senses might say. They will believe as they see the world to be.

Secular versus God though I am leaving these (deliberately) vague would be two competing world views and they aren’t really reconcilable. The secular way to view the world has been gaining prominence and its in opposition to the religious world view. They are competitive and one will likely win and perhaps some different way of viewing the world will evenually rise.

That is by and large why while fun arguments about whether to believe are fruitless. People engage only to bring someone to their world view not with a sincere interest in the others position. It would take something incredible to make me a believer and it most certainly wouldn’t come from a person of an opposing world view. To make me believe in something like YEC it would take god himself coming down and telling me so…no longer faith at this time but whatever thats what it would take. And people in the opposing world view don’t come over from what secular proponents present. It takes an internal shift of belief systems to make such a change occur.

That being said I think its why the secular view is pretty much assured to become the dominant view at least in the western world. Even many people that proclaim they are Christians adhere to a secular view of the world. They don’t live at all as if they have a religious view of the world. What do I care what they call themselves if they hold the same world view as I and act like I do. They are already the same group they just make their religion ok with the way they view the world.

108

Those last two paragraphs should be made sticky in this forum groo. My dear Lord Jesus let your bride THE CHURCH hear what this man is saying.

109

Tiribulus I would really like to hear your answer to my question, interested on your opinion. Here’s the question:

If you never, ever heard about jesus and whatever else you believe, and instead were born into a family of a different practicing religion, or a different time period, who believed just as deeply. Then, you would be just as enthusiastic about a different god, no? What if you were born in ancient Greece and believed in zeus and poseidon, and you never heard the name jesus in your entire life?

110

Then I would be guilty of idolatry before the one true and living God.
Romans 1 verses 18-23

The point of Christian missions is to tell the lost heathen how not to be lost anymore. Yes, I’m fully aware of how arrogant that is to you.
Romans 10:8-15

[quote]8-But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9-because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10-For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11-For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12-For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13-For ?everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”[/quote]
That’s the Christian answer. One God is God indeed. He makes the rules. You’re already dead in Adam. He will resurrect you in Christ if you ask. This is called being “born again”. If you ever are, 3 days in a fish will not be outlandish to you. No more so than 2+2 equaling 4. That’s the short version. I have work to do.

111

That’s ridiculous man I’m sorry. Seriously. So you’re saying that everyone, EVERYONE who lived before jesus, is guilty of worshipping a false god? All of the other creation stories and religions are incorrect, even the ones that were around thousands of years before yours, are wrong, and you know this is a fact, with no more evidence to back up yours than anyone else’s? That is true ignorance. It’s one thing to believe in your faith. It’s another to say someone else’s faith is wrong, based solely on the fact that it’s a story that you know.

What if YOUR god is wrong? And someone else’s religion is right? You may be STILL worshipping a false god!! But I’m sure you know you’re not, because you can quote a page from a story book. That makes sense.

I’m sorry folks, it seems to me like the more people believe in the stories of the bible and their religion in the LITERAL sense, like you actually believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago, those people seem to be the least accepting, filled with judgement for those not like them, logic ignoring, no patience people. I would think god, whatever it is, would want everyone to be happy, get along and be good people to each other, and make the most of the blessing that is life. If god wants war, hunger, kids to be shot and you-better-worship-me-and-no-one-else, he an asshole.

112

Just to clarify, I’m not saying I DON’T believe in god, or whatever it is, I’m just willing to admit that anything is possible, and that everyone should be accepting of all religions. When someone says, “I’m right and you’re wrong because my book says something different than your book,” those people are really halting the progress of the human race.

113

[quote]robstein wrote:
Just to clarify, I’m not saying I DON’T believe in god, or whatever it is, I’m just willing to admit that anything is possible, and that everyone should be accepting of all religions. When someone says, “I’m right and you’re wrong because my book says something different than your book,” those people are really halting the progress of the human race.[/quote]

Anything isn’t possible. Everyone should not be respectful of all religions. Everyone believes they are right.

Your last statement seems to say that religion is halting the progress of the human race. I don’t agree it halts it but slow it down sure. If you hold to this why be accepting of that world view. Is tolerance as important as the progress of the entire human race?

At least Tiribulus is sincere. Its a bit disingenuous to think religion is halting the progress of the human race yet be tolerant of it.

114

I did not say religion is halting the human race. I said people who are not tolerant or accepting of others are halting the human race.

115

In many of my experiences, the people that seem to be the least tolerant and accepting are also those who believe so deeply in their religion that they place that blind belief over the value of their fellow man. And that halts the progress of the human race.

116

[quote]groo wrote:

That is by and large why while fun arguments about whether to believe are fruitless. People engage only to bring someone to their world view not with a sincere interest in the others position. It would take something incredible to make me a believer and it most certainly wouldn’t come from a person of an opposing world view. To make me believe in something like YEC it would take god himself coming down and telling me so…no longer faith at this time but whatever thats what it would take. And people in the opposing world view don’t come over from what secular proponents present. It takes an internal shift of belief systems to make such a change occur.

That being said I think its why the secular view is pretty much assured to become the dominant view at least in the western world. Even many people that proclaim they are Christians adhere to a secular view of the world. They don’t live at all as if they have a religious view of the world. What do I care what they call themselves if they hold the same world view as I and act like I do. They are already the same group they just make their religion ok with the way they view the world.[/quote]

This is good. I agree. No human even a Christian can save you. It is only God that can do that. As Christians we are only called to tell you about Jesus and His Good News. That Good News is that even being a sinner he can save you from your sins. You either believe Jesus made a way, through his death and resurrection, to God or you don’t. It is so easy to say, but to actually grasp is a different thing in and of it self. It is a free gift, but once accepted will cost you everything, but you will give it all freely. I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I am willingly giving him everything, and he continues to bless me with more than I could ever give him.

People do not like to hear how Christians found Jesus, but that is all we have to tell. Our story is now part of His Story. Even though I am saved by the blood of Jesus I am still a sinner and continue to sin daily. It is my human nature to sin. I am no better than anyone else. I am only saved by His Grace.

117

[quote]robstein wrote:
In many of my experiences, the people that seem to be the least tolerant and accepting are also those who believe so deeply in their religion that they place that blind belief over the value of their fellow man. And that halts the progress of the human race.[/quote]

You may see it as intolerance. Christians see it as our duty to tell you about the Good News. If you found the only cure for cancer, would you not tell everyone about it? Christians have found the only way to cleanse us of our sins and have found the only way to Heaven. Why wouldn’t we want to tell everyone about it. It is the Only way to Heaven, but you see it as intolerance or what Tiribulus stated earlier “arrogance.”

Most other religions in the world believe it is by your good works and if their god is pleased enough by your good works then you Might be saved. Christians believe it is not by our Works, but by the Work and Grace of God. 2 different philosophies.

118

[quote]robstein wrote:
In many of my experiences, the people that seem to be the least tolerant and accepting are also those who believe so deeply in their religion that they place that blind belief over the value of their fellow man. And that halts the progress of the human race.[/quote]

The religious in America at least, mostly aren’t denying anything to the nonbeliever other than the in my view imaginary salvation of their religion. Which if you don’t believe in means they deny you nothing.

The secular in most cases aren’t denying much either in my opinion. In certain cases certain religious rites certainly should not and cannot be tolerated.

People largely act the same regardless of their world view being religious or secular which is a shame for both of them.

I think certain world views hold back the human race. One being the view that would allow both the Randian atheist and the right wing Christian conservative to come to the conclusion that the best society is a pure free market one where there are some rough consequences for those not on the top. But that is a core believe that allows both one to be religious or secular.

Relativism is a weak position often either morally or intellectually dishonest. Some actions shouldn’t be tolerated. And some beliefs are so repugnant…well I’d not go so far as to create thoughtcrime but some thoughts are so repugnant if they were ever expressed in action they are what anyone should see to be evil.

119

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

That is by and large why while fun arguments about whether to believe are fruitless. People engage only to bring someone to their world view not with a sincere interest in the others position. It would take something incredible to make me a believer and it most certainly wouldn’t come from a person of an opposing world view. To make me believe in something like YEC it would take god himself coming down and telling me so…no longer faith at this time but whatever thats what it would take. And people in the opposing world view don’t come over from what secular proponents present. It takes an internal shift of belief systems to make such a change occur.

That being said I think its why the secular view is pretty much assured to become the dominant view at least in the western world. Even many people that proclaim they are Christians adhere to a secular view of the world. They don’t live at all as if they have a religious view of the world. What do I care what they call themselves if they hold the same world view as I and act like I do. They are already the same group they just make their religion ok with the way they view the world.[/quote]

This is good. I agree. No human even a Christian can save you. It is only God that can do that. As Christians we are only called to tell you about Jesus and His Good News. That Good News is that even being a sinner he can save you from your sins. You either believe Jesus made a way, through his death and resurrection, to God or you don’t. It is so easy to say, but to actually grasp is a different thing in and of it self. It is a free gift, but once accepted will cost you everything, but you will give it all freely. I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I am willingly giving him everything, and he continues to bless me with more than I could ever give him.

People do not like to hear how Christians found Jesus, but that is all we have to tell. Our story is now part of His Story. Even though I am saved by the blood of Jesus I am still a sinner and continue to sin daily. It is my human nature to sin. I am no better than anyone else. I am only saved by His Grace.[/quote]

That is half of my point. I’d argue it the other way though. That someone so misguided as to deeply believe such a fantasy needs to come to the realization on their own that it is a fantasy. And barring them doing it on their own I can give arguments to support what I believe but I by no means think it will bring them to reality. To finally put aside fear and live is something one has to do on ones own. But its simply the other direction of your point which is what I meant as well though I’d phrase the acceptance of Christianity differently than being saved.

120

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

That is by and large why while fun arguments about whether to believe are fruitless. People engage only to bring someone to their world view not with a sincere interest in the others position. It would take something incredible to make me a believer and it most certainly wouldn’t come from a person of an opposing world view. To make me believe in something like YEC it would take god himself coming down and telling me so…no longer faith at this time but whatever thats what it would take. And people in the opposing world view don’t come over from what secular proponents present. It takes an internal shift of belief systems to make such a change occur.

That being said I think its why the secular view is pretty much assured to become the dominant view at least in the western world. Even many people that proclaim they are Christians adhere to a secular view of the world. They don’t live at all as if they have a religious view of the world. What do I care what they call themselves if they hold the same world view as I and act like I do. They are already the same group they just make their religion ok with the way they view the world.[/quote]

This is good. I agree. No human even a Christian can save you. It is only God that can do that. As Christians we are only called to tell you about Jesus and His Good News. That Good News is that even being a sinner he can save you from your sins. You either believe Jesus made a way, through his death and resurrection, to God or you don’t. It is so easy to say, but to actually grasp is a different thing in and of it self. It is a free gift, but once accepted will cost you everything, but you will give it all freely. I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I am willingly giving him everything, and he continues to bless me with more than I could ever give him.

People do not like to hear how Christians found Jesus, but that is all we have to tell. Our story is now part of His Story. Even though I am saved by the blood of Jesus I am still a sinner and continue to sin daily. It is my human nature to sin. I am no better than anyone else. I am only saved by His Grace.[/quote]

That is half of my point. I’d argue it the other way though. That someone so misguided as to deeply believe such a fantasy needs to come to the realization on their own that it is a fantasy. And barring them doing it on their own I can give arguments to support what I believe but I by no means think it will bring them to reality. To finally put aside fear and live is something one has to do on ones own. But its simply the other direction of your point which is what I meant as well though I’d phrase the acceptance of Christianity differently than being saved.
[/quote]

I respect that.

Zig Ziglar used an acronym for FEAR. False Evidence Appearing Real. Fear is used by some in Christianity, because fear is a motivating feeling, and they are doing nothing more than giving a sales pitch. I am not a big fan of using fear. I fear God, but not because he has the right to send me to Hell for my sins, because He does. That is where the term saved comes from. Jesus saves us from Hell and from our sins. I am a big proponent of allowing God through the Holy Spirit to change someones heart. I believe if you ask God to give you the truth he will do it. I also question God all the time, and there is nothing wrong with that. I have faith that God knows what is best for me, so when I want God to do something and he chooses to say, “No, I want this for you.” Then, I am faithful to listen to him.