An Ideal Government?

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Who is to say that is human nature for strong people to oppress weak people?[/quote]

Your definition of “oppress” is awfully broad. And this is one of the things that makes you sound koo koo.

[/quote]
It’s subjective. So what?

The point is that governments are not voluntary and that is why they are incompatible with civilization.[/quote]

LOL…Lifty, you can’t dismiss it as being “subjective” because that’s the whole point. Some people get up every day put on their tin foil hat’s and assume that the government is trying to get them. Every mailman, garbage man and neighbor is suspect. Some are afraid to go out of the house for fear that the men in black will take them away.

Now I’m not saying that this is you - But there are degrees of paranoia.

So you can’t say it’s "subjective’ and then move on. I think you have a problem with authority in general and it’s most likely something for a very good Psychiatrist to figure out. And I don’t mean that as an insult. I’m sure you function quite well in your every day life. But you’ve got a real problem when it comes to the government and I would absolutely love to know where it started.[/quote]

I might feel enslaved by having to pay 40% of my income to taxes but you are okay with it.

I do have a problem with authority. Where does it come from?
[/quote]

Yeah, you do have a problem with authority and I am very curious about that. Were you raised in a large family or small? Did you have to take a lot of orders as a child or were you left to fend for yourself? I’d really like to know why you think the way you. And please don’t think I’m making fun of you, not at all. We all behave certain ways in part because of how we are raised. You know the old nurture vs nature debate.

I was raised in a large family and my father was military so I’m used to living with certain rules.

How about you?
[/quote]
My problem with authority is how people come by it.

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so.

I was raised in a very strict military family and also was in the USMC. I am no stranger to authoritarianism. My problem wasn’t so much with my parents but rather all the people they told me I was to obey. They could never tell me why and I am just a very distrustful and skeptical individual when it comes to ideas and being told what to do.

Let’s put it this way: I have never trusted “Conventional Wisdom”.

[ZEB]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Who is to say that is human nature for strong people to oppress weak people?[/quote]

Your definition of “oppress” is awfully broad. And this is one of the things that makes you sound koo koo.

[/quote]
It’s subjective. So what?

The point is that governments are not voluntary and that is why they are incompatible with civilization.[/quote]

LOL…Lifty, you can’t dismiss it as being “subjective” because that’s the whole point. Some people get up every day put on their tin foil hat’s and assume that the government is trying to get them. Every mailman, garbage man and neighbor is suspect. Some are afraid to go out of the house for fear that the men in black will take them away.

Now I’m not saying that this is you - But there are degrees of paranoia.

So you can’t say it’s "subjective’ and then move on. I think you have a problem with authority in general and it’s most likely something for a very good Psychiatrist to figure out. And I don’t mean that as an insult. I’m sure you function quite well in your every day life. But you’ve got a real problem when it comes to the government and I would absolutely love to know where it started.[/quote]

I might feel enslaved by having to pay 40% of my income to taxes but you are okay with it.

I do have a problem with authority. Where does it come from?
[/quote]

Yeah, you do have a problem with authority and I am very curious about that. Were you raised in a large family or small? Did you have to take a lot of orders as a child or were you left to fend for yourself? I’d really like to know why you think the way you. And please don’t think I’m making fun of you, not at all. We all behave certain ways in part because of how we are raised. You know the old nurture vs nature debate.

I was raised in a large family and my father was military so I’m used to living with certain rules.

How about you?
[/quote]
My problem with authority is how people come by it.

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so.

I was raised in a very strict military family and also was in the USMC. I am no stranger to authoritarianism. My problem wasn’t so much with my parents but rather all the people they told me I was to obey. They could never tell me why and I am just a very distrustful and skeptical individual when it comes to ideas and being told what to do.

Let’s put it this way: I have never trusted “Conventional Wisdom”.[/quote]

You were told what to do quite a lot as a child and didn’t much care for it. This is your answer, rebelion.

It makes sense.

But, I think if you dial it back a little you wouldn’t be too far from wrong.

[bigflamer]

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I feel like this country is turning into the biggest motherfucker in a prison, the one that a lot of the smaller guys with loads of self-confidence want to take a run at just to see what happens, knowing that if they get lucky and succeed they’re the new top dog.[/quote]

The weak will always collude against the strong.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
But, I think if you dial it back a little you wouldn’t be too far from wrong.[/quote]

I don’t think radical nonviolence is that extreme.

[ZEB]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
But, I think if you dial it back a little you wouldn’t be too far from wrong.[/quote]

I don’t think radical nonviolence is that extreme.[/quote]

But in the process what is happening? That is the question that you have to ask yourself. While you and the others are beating your chests over Paul who is grabbing the power? Here’s a clue…it ain’t Ron Paul!

So the damage is in omission. While you could have been doing something that would actually effect change you’re not.

[ZEB]

By the way the democratic party absolutely loves you guys!

Ask yourself why that is.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

I agree with this completely.
Because it respects something that is fundamental to being fully human:
Our exercise of free will.

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

I don’t have a solution to the problem, though.
Becoming a person in their own right would show up a lot of one’s incompetence and weaknesses.
Hence denial works hand in hand with authoritarianism.

[ZEB]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

[/quote]

Okay, explain exactly who is manipulating you and forcing you to do things that are somehow immoral.

Go ahead this should be really good.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

[/quote]

Okay, explain exactly who is manipulating you and forcing you to do things that are somehow immoral.

Go ahead this should be really good.[/quote]

Isn’t coercion exactly that?

Aren’t we under threat of imprisonment if we do not obey certain edicts?

Laws that do not protect individual liberty are no laws - they are commands put to us at gunpoint.

[squating_bear]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

[/quote]

Okay, explain exactly who is manipulating you and forcing you to do things that are somehow immoral.

Go ahead this should be really good.[/quote]
You’ve added the word immoral in there. I’m not sure that anyone can force you to behave immorally.

A command from a false position of authority can be called an immoral command though

[Sloth]

Living is coercive. You weren’t born with a specific amount of resources allocated to you by ‘the Creator.’ Private and public property arise from taking claim of basic resources, excluding others from using them as they please. Resources that no human being created. Not one person had a hand in creating this earth, it’s seas, and it’s atmosphere. And, the bounty found within all three. Private property is one fella telling you can no longer walk a forest trail because it’s being developed. Public property is a bunch of fellas saying the same.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

[/quote]

Okay, explain exactly who is manipulating you and forcing you to do things that are somehow immoral.

Go ahead this should be really good.[/quote]

No one.
No one is manipulating or forcing me to do anything moral or immoral ( which calls into question moral according to whose standards? ).
I am fully aware of my free will and my right to exercise it.
I can, for instance, check out of society completely and find another autonomous male and start my own “civilization”/tribe/society in a forgotten island.

I chose freely to cooperate with the laws of the society I live in, however, doing so because I do not follow laws but live my life out of principles.
The principle being to cooperate but not to become compliant; to see coercion and live side by side with it but not to be broken by it.

There are many forms of coercion; con schemes, lip service, emotional hooks, double standards that fall under the umbrella of manipulation and deceit, which are all attempts to control and violate the other’s exercise of free will.
I am free because I am not blind to it and I am aware I can exercise my free will to go with it or against it.
In a violent manner or in an indifferent manner; my choice of style there, too.

I cannot be forced or manipulated to do anything immoral.
But I am under the force and coercion, daily, of a self-serving, faceless institution that claims to work for my best interest.

[orion]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
What if there is no ideal when it comes to dominating mankind?[/quote]

Then someone can walk into your house kick you in the face and take your stuff.

Now you don’t want that do you Lifty?

No, of course not. Now stop with all this anarchy nonsense and get to work.[/quote]

What does this have to do with anything?

Anyone can walk into my house now…they’re called the cops.[/quote]

And by that statement you are saying that you trust hoodlums, rapists and burglars over the Police.

Do I have that right?

Do you think you can fend off the hordes of those bigger, badder and better armed than you are?

Tell us all Lifty–Tell us how we don’t need government.

You joker…You are always good for a laugh.[/quote]

I don’t trust anyone to make decisions for me.

I don’t trust cops to protect me…it’s not like they stand outside my house keeping me safe - nor would I want that.

Government cannot do anything that we don’t already do for ourselves.

There really is no government. It’s just people pretending to be important.[/quote]

LOL…You are a nut but you’ve been told that by others in your personal life I’m sure.

[/quote]

Lol, you are a nut and you have not been told that anything approaching often enough.

Rapists, burglars, hoodlums?

I can shoot them.

Cops?

Well, even a videotape might get you 20 years…

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. [/quote]

The invisible lines that denote where you private property starts and stops do not have my voluntary consent, nor would they have the voluntary consent of any person born after you acquired that property.

So, therefore, such designations of private property must also be as illegitimate as the non-voluntary rules set up by the non-voluntary government. They are based on observance of rules - on one side the line I am trespassing, on the other I am not - none of which I have consented to.

Nor would business owners. I didn’t consent to anyone’s patent, no did future generations born after the patent. So, it must illegitimate.

Even adoloscents should know how philosophically incoherent “anarchy!” is. But you don’t.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Constitutional Monarchy with Distributism. [/quote]

Someone been reading John Medaille and others over at http://distributistreview.com/mag/ ?
[/quote]

I haven’t been reading them for awhile. But, yes I also read GKC and Belloc and Day.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]florelius wrote:
Distributism seems okay and are a bit similar to syndicalism and some forms utopian socialism in a way.

One thing it reminded me of where Proudhons mutualism.

[/quote]

Can you explain further?

[ZEB]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

[/quote]

Okay, explain exactly who is manipulating you and forcing you to do things that are somehow immoral.

Go ahead this should be really good.[/quote]

No one.
No one is manipulating or forcing me to do anything moral or immoral ( which calls into question moral according to whose standards? ).
I am fully aware of my free will and my right to exercise it.
I can, for instance, check out of society completely and find another autonomous male and start my own “civilization”/tribe/society in a forgotten island.

I chose freely to cooperate with the laws of the society I live in, however, doing so because I do not follow laws but live my life out of principles.
The principle being to cooperate but not to become compliant; to see coercion and live side by side with it but not to be broken by it.

There are many forms of coercion; con schemes, lip service, emotional hooks, double standards that fall under the umbrella of manipulation and deceit, which are all attempts to control and violate the other’s exercise of free will.
I am free because I am not blind to it and I am aware I can exercise my free will to go with it or against it.
In a violent manner or in an indifferent manner; my choice of style there, too.

I cannot be forced or manipulated to do anything immoral.
But I am under the force and coercion, daily, of a self-serving, faceless institution that claims to work for my best interest.[/quote]

Just as I thought not a single good example.

Oh, and rambling doesn’t count as an answer.

Thanks.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

In a civil society one can only have authority in one legitimate way - voluntarily. When I think of legitimate authority I think of technical experts and business owners, etc. People that make their way on merit and whose “followers” voluntarily do so. [/quote]

If we are being manipulated and/or forced to obey then we are simply pets.

[/quote]

Okay, explain exactly who is manipulating you and forcing you to do things that are somehow immoral.

Go ahead this should be really good.[/quote]

No one.
No one is manipulating or forcing me to do anything moral or immoral ( which calls into question moral according to whose standards? ).
I am fully aware of my free will and my right to exercise it.
I can, for instance, check out of society completely and find another autonomous male and start my own “civilization”/tribe/society in a forgotten island.

I chose freely to cooperate with the laws of the society I live in, however, doing so because I do not follow laws but live my life out of principles.
The principle being to cooperate but not to become compliant; to see coercion and live side by side with it but not to be broken by it.

There are many forms of coercion; con schemes, lip service, emotional hooks, double standards that fall under the umbrella of manipulation and deceit, which are all attempts to control and violate the other’s exercise of free will.
I am free because I am not blind to it and I am aware I can exercise my free will to go with it or against it.
In a violent manner or in an indifferent manner; my choice of style there, too.

I cannot be forced or manipulated to do anything immoral.
But I am under the force and coercion, daily, of a self-serving, faceless institution that claims to work for my best interest.[/quote]

Just as I thought not a single good example.

Oh, and rambling doesn’t count as an answer.

Thanks.

[/quote]

You are welcome.

[florelius]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Distributism seems okay and are a bit similar to syndicalism and some forms utopian socialism in a way.

One thing it reminded me of where Proudhons mutualism.

[/quote]

Can you explain further?[/quote]

I dont have the time right now, but I will later.

ps. I have just read a wikipedia article about distributism, so I am basing my understanding of it from that.