Chrispowers:
I don’t see much of an effort to point out that racism is as RAMPANT as it was forty years ago. Its not, and no one is saying it is. I saw Bobby Seale give a speech on Feb.2 and he spent a lot of time saying that police brutality now is nothing compared to in the '60s. In the '60s it was fifty times worse, because now at least officers can be put on trial, according to him.
The fact is that no one is declaring that racism is as rampant or as bad as it was then. Not Sharpton or Jackson. It is quite the opposite. In the 1980s Reagan ordered that we stop investigating racism in schools. To him it was like ‘hey this is 80s, racism doesn’t exist. We’re past that’. That is the mentality that prevails today. Thankfully, there are those out there that still like to remind us every once in a while, that while progress has been made, there still are inequalities among women and minorities. Without these voices, America, the silent majority, would remain comfortable with the status quo, led by leaders like Reagan.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
I don’t see much of an effort to point out that racism is as RAMPANT as it was forty years ago. Its not, and no one is saying it is.[/quote]
Fair enough. Although the implication that nobody’s out lynching Blacks because now we just leave it to the cops borders on that, in my opinion. I certainly hope that we can all agree that race relations have come a long way since the '60s.
I suppose what I meant by the “rampant” comment is that racism is not as rampant as it tends to be portrayed by these parties who have a vested interest in racism like Jesse Jackson, who extorts corporations by “insisting” that they hire more Blacks (often his friends) in exchange for a proclamation that the corp. has been deemed “not racist” by his not-for-profit org. Some of the “anti-racist” comments on this board share with Sharpton & Co. the element of overreaction. “Those White people used the adjective ‘Black’ when referring to a Black person who committed a crime. That shows they feel that Blacks are prone to committing crimes.” It’s ridiculous. If you go out of your way to look for something, then you can rest assured you will find it. Every time.
I can’t honestly speak to this, as I’m not knowledgable enough about the history, but my guess would be that it was more along the lines of what I’ve been saying, which is that as long as we continue to consider racism as being an enormous problem with rich White men getting together in secret smoky rooms and deciding on how they’re going to keep Black Americans down, we’re not going to get anywhere. I mean, you’re talking about a climate where we have people referring to one man in a video as a “big, Black dude” and other trying to call them out as closet racists. This is absurd and only HURTS the cause of easing race relations because it engenders anger and resentment.
[quote]vroom wrote:
However, the consequences of such actions are still prevalent today. If we ignore the current situation, during our lifetime, because we didn’t bring it about, it is still wrong. This is the part that remains equivalent to standing around the pizza joint.
Nowadays we, most of us, are simply responsible for our inaction. Excuse me while I step over this body to go order my pizza – since it was here before I got here, I’m certainly not going to concern myself with it.[/quote]
I would gladly have thrown a few blows to call his attention away, then slapped his girl up, and ran like hell. I would have constantly taken note of how far behind me he was, to make sure he didn’t go back to do more damage. If he did try, a powerful offensive sidekick to his spine would do some damage, enough to disable his fat ass anyways. I took martial arts for 5 years for this exact purpose. To make a difference. To fight for those who cannot. Let this be a lesson, it’s not always what you do that hurts people, what you dont do can be just as damaging.
[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
It’s ridiculous. If you go out of your way to look for something, then you can rest assured you will find it. Every time…as we continue to consider racism as being an enormous problem … we’re not going to get anywhere. I mean, you’re talking about a climate where we have people referring to one man in a video as a “big, Black dude” and other trying to call them out as closet racists. This is absurd and only HURTS the cause of easing race relations because it engenders anger and resentment.[/quote]
Let me point something out to you. This statement was written by “rockhard_4eva”[quote]
02/25/05
04:21 PM
Ontario, CAN
So this is an example of the “projects” that I always hear about.
Wow, I guess the US isn’t the greatest place to live, well, at least certain parts aren’t that great.
The zoo’s are filled with nicer looking animals though.
[/quote]
That was actually one of the first responses that picked up my attention. Why would this person, after looking at a pizza place FILLED with white people, assume this was the projects? If you try to tell me that race had nothing to do with this comment, you deserve to be slapped. It was not a comment only based on the crime. It was an implication that since the crime was committed by a certain race then this must also be indicative of where that race lives. Not to mention that it also assume that black people are from the ghetto. Let me guess…you can’t see that. Well, here’s a another:
[quote]Orbitalboner
02/26/05
12:45 PM
Ontario, CAN
The problem is the location. If this happened in the ghetto in somewhere like detroit, then I definitely would not have intervened. But if this happened anywhere in Canada, with that many people standing there, I would have jumped in for sure. In the US people are shot daily, so you have to be a lot more careful in these situations. [/quote]
Of course, now I’m thinking maybe it is just a problem with the way Canada is perceiving America…as if every incident or crime concerning a black person automatically means that this happened in “THE GHETTO”. You’ll have to excuse me, but I seriously doubt most of the people using this term even know what the fuck they are talking about and have probably never seen any projects outside of television.
Mind you, other random comments of the “big black coward” slowly start the wheel turning even more. Why? Because racism today isn’t blatant. It is quiet and hidden. Blacks look for it because we know it is still there. We still deal with it, therefore our eyes are out scoping for it, regardless of the form it comes in. It is quite similar to how a rape victim must view her environment after the incident…her guard will always be up and her awareness more acutely tuned.
But here was the clincher for me that showed there was an underlying current:
Now, do you see what I see? If you are blind to this, then there truly is no point going further in this discussion with you. You will be forever blind to what others are saying as you try to act as if there is no problem at all or is if the problem is so small, it isn’t worth noticing. For you, maybe it is like those “Where’s Waldo” pictures where you have to look really really hard. I see it like a shining light. Perhaps you need glasses?
Your view seems to be that you want the country to act more like there is no problem. You seem to think that underlying currents, left ignored, will somehow dissipate and no lasting damage will be done that needs to be addressed. Obviously, in your head, no act or slight remark, or undercurrent could possibly affect a person’s mentality or keep them from seeking success in the same places that people who have never had these experiences look for it. I see Waldo. Why can’t you see him? Shouldn’t we try to expose Waldo, even if he isn’t as big and bad as he was 60 years ago?
Waldo hasn’t lynched anyone in decades. Now, he stands a little more in the background, hidden within careless, carefree comments that when they slip out, are either hurridly trampled over or excused as “Oh, that was nothing”…much like a fart in a crowded elevator. You want to ignore Waldo. I say put a bright red and white striped shirt on the motherfucker and prance him around on the nightly news. That son of a bitch can’t hide then.
Many things can be learned from this and here are a few:
1: The Bystander Effect-That is, the presence of another bystander tends to inhibit action! To more clearly state this point let me give a prime example that many of you may know:
In 1964 a young women named Kitty Genovese was brutally stabbed to death in New York City. What made this one unique from other murders in New York City was that no less then 38 neighbors came to their window at 3:00 am from hearing the screaming and horror. Not a phone or helping hand was lifted while the murderer stabbed her countless times. Why then did no one do anything and simply watched in horror as the incident occured right in front of them? Were these 38 people not in horror? Were they non chalant? Are they that different from “us”? It appears they are not…
Several studies were conducted to explain this: The main theme was that people thought “why are not these other people doing something to help if it is so damn important?” Simply stated there is a diffusion of responsibility-That is, the studies conducted show that the MORE people around… the decrease of liklihood that any ONE of them will help.
If one person provides a bad example of not helping then it is likely that bad response triggers others to simply stand by and watch this occurence. They think someone else is taking care of it (why else would everyone be standing and watching this)
There are many other factors and experiments showing what factors influence not helping in emergency situations. Another link is the interdependance disregarded in our society. Simply, if we believe we may share the same fate as another person the more likely we are to help. If not, we tend not to help as much. A Lack of EMPATHY is the main theme behind these studies. The predominant explanation in the Kitty case and the Pizza parlor brawl in regards to the onlookers was, “I didn’t want to get involved.”
I could go on and on but just a little smudge of this lesson I can say this:
The next time you see someone getting the piss kicked out of them and there are a lot of people watching. Don’t think someone else will handle it or I did not want to get involved. The chances are and studies suggest the MORE people the LESS help one receives. Think of this and set the good example by aiding the person.
IE: Be the one to help and don’t even think for a second… " You got it bro or hes got it bro.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Let me point something out to you. This statement was written by “rockhard_4eva”
02/25/05
04:21 PM
Ontario, CAN
So this is an example of the “projects” that I always hear about.
Wow, I guess the US isn’t the greatest place to live, well, at least certain parts aren’t that great.
The zoo’s are filled with nicer looking animals though.
That was actually one of the first responses that picked up my attention. Why would this person, after looking at a pizza place FILLED with white people, assume this was the projects? If you try to tell me that race had nothing to do with this comment, you deserve to be slapped. It was not a comment only based on the crime. It was an implication that since the crime was committed by a certain race then this must also be indicative of where that race lives. Not to mention that it also assume that black people are from the ghetto. Let me guess…you can’t see that.[/quote]
There are inconsistincies here that I don’t understand at all. First you say, “Why would this person, after looking at a pizza place FILLED with white people, assume this was the projects?” What’s your point? That with such a large population of Whites in the area, no one should conclude it took place in the projects, since as we all know only Blacks live in the projects? Okay, fine.
You then say, “Not to mention that it also assume that black people are from the ghetto.” By implying that the presence of so many White people should have dismissed the notion that this took place in the projects, you are demonstrating that you take that position as well. Then mere sentences later, you criticize that position as being racist. Which is it?
You said yourself that the video shows people of multiple ethnicities. So why would you think that ethnicity had a factor in this poster assuming the incident took place in the projects? That dude was from Canada. His position may be a result of ignorance to this country, not racism. He sees crime and thinks it’s near the projects. I can’t speak for what’s in a person’s mind, but I likewise can’t conclude from what he wrote that his motivations were racist.
And I deserve to be slapped if I have an opinion that you don’t agree with? What kind of weak shit is that?
[quote]Well, here’s a another:
Orbitalboner
02/26/05
12:45 PM
Ontario, CAN
The problem is the location. If this happened in the ghetto in somewhere like detroit, then I definitely would not have intervened. But if this happened anywhere in Canada, with that many people standing there, I would have jumped in for sure. In the US people are shot daily, so you have to be a lot more careful in these situations.
Of course, now I’m thinking maybe it is just a problem with the way Canada is perceiving America…as if every incident or crime concerning a black person automatically means that this happened in “THE GHETTO”. You’ll have to excuse me, but I seriously doubt most of the people using this term even know what the fuck they are talking about and have probably never seen any projects outside of television.[/quote]
Right, if this happened in a city where the murder rate is among the highest in the country, it’s racism to think that it might make sense not to intervene when the likelihood of a person carrying a gun is that much higher. That’s racism.
[quote]Mind you, other random comments of the “big black coward” slowly start the wheel turning even more. Why? Because racism today isn’t blatant. It is quiet and hidden. Blacks look for it because we know it is still there. We still deal with it, therefore our eyes are out scoping for it, regardless of the form it comes in. It is quite similar to how a rape victim must view her environment after the incident…her guard will always be up and her awareness more acutely tuned.
[/quote]
Again, “big black coward” shows racism and not sizeism. Let’s just all pretend that the person we’re describing wasn’t black, or we might be accused of racism, and in today’s politically correct society, that’s a virtual social death sentence. So I’ll bite my tongue next time and go to great lengths to avoid using race as a descriptive term. But only when I’m saying bad things of course. When making good points about someone, I can use their race like crazy because then people will think I can’t possibly be racist.
You can deny it all you want. Being forced into that sort of unnatural behavior by societal pressures is a major component of why race is still such a big issue and why people will continue to harbor resentment about the way they’re being forced to act in public in order to avoid accusations.
“Blacks look for [racism] because we know it is still there.” Then you will continue to find it forever.
[quote]But here was the clincher for me that showed there was an underlying current:
MDLP
02/27/05
11:23 AM
What a small world… I was at the best buy in Parma, OH last night looking for a washer and dryer for one of my rental properties and who comes up to assist me? Joe Scarpino. Unbelieveable… We talked for about 20 minutes about what happened. What a small world.
Originally I found out about this on Friday night while reading T-Nation. I didnt know where the event had took place, but later that evening while watching the news I was stunned, well not really, to learn that it had occured in Akron, Ohio. Then on Saturday I meet the guy at Best Buy. He looks ok now. He said the event happened last July.
The part of Akron where this took place is commonly refered to as “LA” “Lower Akron” while in the presence of mixed company or “Lower Africa” by those in the know… And now a nation knows why.
Now, do you see what I see? If you are blind to this, then there truly is no point going further in this discussion with you. You will be forever blind to what others are saying as you try to act as if there is no problem at all or is if the problem is so small, it isn’t worth noticing. For you, maybe it is like those “Where’s Waldo” pictures where you have to look really really hard. I see it like a shining light. Perhaps you need glasses?[/quote]
I agreed with you on this post already, but perhaps you brought it up again to drive home your point. Fair enough. I concede that this was an inappropriate response. In fact, I singled it out as well.
Sure we should expose him. Should we TRY to expose him? Sure, but only if he’s there. Ignore racism and pretend it doesn’t exist? No, that’s asinine. Go out of our way to nitpick every god damn word that a person says to “expose” their racism which we know is already there? No. We agree that at least one post in this thread exposed a person’s racism–perhaps the poster is so sheltered that he didn’t realize that what he said would be offensive. That’s good, because he knows better now. You think racism is rampant in this thread; I disagree. Slap me.
Man, what world of “careless, carefree comments” are you living in? It’s not the same one as me, where people hold their tongues and avoid saying things that they fear might be construed as racist by some hypersensitive person who may be listening. Only when people aren’t walking on eggshells when race is the topic of conversation will we actually be able to put this bullshit behind us.
I’m with you. This will probably be my last post, but not because you’re just too damn ignorant to understand how right I am, or because you’re blind to reality, as you implied of me.
I read these posts and feel compelled to respond, but what’s the ultimate point? Nobody’s listening, nobody’s going to be persuaded by anything we write, I won’t be changing any minds and neither will you. These discussions are like dozens of people all talking to a wall. I feel that I’ve listened to what people have written, considered it honestly, and tried to respond in good humor, but the responses I receive don’t speak to that, so perhaps I’m deluding myself.
[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
There are inconsistincies here that I don’t understand at all. First you say, “Why would this person, after looking at a pizza place FILLED with white people, assume this was the projects?” What’s your point? That with such a large population of Whites in the area, no one should conclude it took place in the projects, since as we all know only Blacks live in the projects? Okay, fine.
You then say, “Not to mention that it also assume that black people are from the ghetto.” By implying that the presence of so many White people should have dismissed the notion that this took place in the projects, you are demonstrating that you take that position as well. Then mere sentences later, you criticize that position as being racist. Which is it?.[/quote]
I haven’t read the rest of your post yet, but I will address this. WHAT “GHETTO” HAVE YOU BEEN TO WHERE YOU CAN WALK INTO A FOOD PLACE OR STORE AND NOT SEE ANY BLACK PEOPLE BUT SEVERAL WELL DRESSED WHITE PEOPLE WITH CELL PHONES? Answer that question and we will go from there. You want to play games. Not only that, but you aren’t even good at it. You will dismiss the fact that it must be projects because of two black people, while also trying to act as if this establishment gave any hint of being set up in a poor part of town or near any “projects” or a “ghetto”. Get real.
I think it’s a mistake to view this incident as being about race. That’s completely beside the point.
Rather, this is an example of what happens in this day and age when someone dares step between a fat chick and her pizza. Hell hath no fury like a she-cow starved.
You want conspiracy theories about The Man willfully dispensing destructive and addictive substances? How about blaming the Dept. of Agriculture? I’d bet their half-assed nutritional guidelines play a part in transforming regular folks into menacing obese psychopaths jonesing for a slice of thin-crust. Honestly, there’s just no way a pepperoni pie should be worth fighting over.
Of course, if anyone cuts in front of a T-man at a steakhouse, you know the gloves are coming off …
ChrisPowers’ position is clearly that of denial. Try to convince a holocaust denier, and no matter how much evidence you give, they’ll still deny it.
Prof X, I have to disagree with you on this point:
I don’t know how often you watch the news, but I see waldo making nooses on trees all the time. Why, he’s had Mumia standing on a chair for years, just waiting for everyone to turn away so he can kick it.
The difference is, like you said, it isn’t blatant any more. By being subtle, you can try to convince people it’s all their imagination. But you’d have to be pretty naive to think it’s all made up. Well, either that, or have some specific agenda…
This thread, which started off very interesting, has deteriorated into a parody. I’ve read it patiently and held my peace, but no more. It’s time for a reality check. Look at yourselves.
We’ve got white guys with their heads in the sand claiming that racism doesn’t exist, black guys claiming it is the cause of virtually everything and seeing it were it sometimes is not, fools telling us our society would be safer if we were all walking around with the ability to snuff out someone’s life in an instant in a holster, and braggarts talking about how they would have easily knocked out one of the biggest men they would ever see. Everyone grow up.
I can’t believe this thread has degraded into indignant black folk and white apologists. “Fuck you”. A white man was mauled by some silver back and his disgustingly uncouth female side kick and some of us feel obliged to champion the cause of 400 years of oppression, blah, fucking blah. In my opinion blacks are out of control in this country. Vroom, it’s that liberal emasculating philosophy that is at the root of this whole incident to begin with. What should be done with Mr. Jones, pardon his jail sentence, and give him a full ride to Harvard. Name one black eatery in America, one, where a white couple could come in and terrorize the place and black patrons would just stand around and hope “whitey don’t be comin after me”. Please. It wouldn’t happen, that imaginary white couple would be laid out. Period. White males are terrified of black males in general. Either from a physical stand point(mainly), or a litigation standpoint. That’s what our country has come to. I remember when I read about those white men in Texas who drug the black man behind their car, how horrified and somewhat ashamed I felt. I was not indignant and rehashing that some tired old social injustice was at the root cause of these white man’s transgressions(that was a huge step backwards on our part). Or, we don’t know the whole story and shouldn’t jump to any negative conclusions. Fuck me. Here’s what I saw in the video, a black women acting like a fucking embarrasment to the human race and her black behemoth championing her pathetic existence and brutally, savagely beating down a white man while other members of my race pathetically stood by and did nothing. Had the entire white crowd jumped in and beat the man back, well that video would have ended up on Oprah, with the caption, "Racism alive and well in America, as whites savagely beat defenseless black male. Prestia Sims would have been portrayed as a wonderful mother and pillar of the community as she spent the weekend at Oprah’s Hawaiin hideaway rehasing the events of that horrible evening. I hope none feel my opinions or beliefs are being concealed in an udercurrent of the unspoken.
Kyle
[quote]KFall wrote:
Had the entire white crowd jumped in and beat the man back, well that video would have ended up on Oprah, with the caption, "Racism alive and well in America, as whites savagely beat defenseless black male. Prestia Sims would have been portrayed as a wonderful mother and pillar of the community as she spent the weekend at Oprah’s Hawaiin hideaway rehasing the events of that horrible evening. I hope none feel my opinions or beliefs are being concealed in an udercurrent of the unspoken.
Kyle[/quote]
I don’t know what fictitious world you live in where any group of people would have been crucified for helping a human being…but I can tell you that when Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times by police officers for reaching into his pocket for his wallet to show his ID, this did not end up on Oprah. It didn’t end up on Good Morning America. In fact, I doubt that you have even heard of him. Go ahead, look up this case and educate yourself on what America hides and what it chooses to expose. I’ll wait.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t know what fictitious world you live in where any group of people would have been crucified for helping a human being…but I can tell you that when Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times by police officers for reaching into his pocket for his wallet to show his ID, this did not end up on Oprah. It didn’t end up on Good Morning America. In fact, I doubt that you have even heard of him. Go ahead, look up this case and educate yourself on what America hides and what it chooses to expose. I’ll wait.
[/quote]
what world are you living in where you feel free to assume that most “white folk” don’t know about Amadou Diallo?
For chrissakes, Bruce Springsteen even wrote a damn song about it.
And it’s easy to find fault with everyone.
But think about the hair trigger cops are on.
They literally don’t know whether they’ll come home at the end of their shift. Was it a tragedy? Yes.
But come on…
Professor X,
I was hoping you would respond, and so soon. Just chomping at the bit to unmask the social injustice done to Mr. Jones in the beating of Mr. Scarpino. This post wasn’t up 5 minutes and here we are. I’ll bite.
I totally believe you about Mr. Amadou Diallo, and I have no doubt a majority of those police officers were white. Exactly my point, white american males are terrified of black american males. I think we feel they’ve been bred too big and too strong to meet on a level playing field. So we cower. I feel this needs to change, “by any means necessary”. I don’t disagree that there is social injustice, or prejudice oon the part of white America. I’m just saying from this particular video clip where do you possibly get off on launching your racial rhetoric from your soap box. I live in Omaha, NE. Several years ago a black man stole a white man’s SUV, led the police on a high speed chase through streets full of young black children, when finally pulled over he refused to get out of the vehicle and when reaching for his cell phone against numerous ploice warnings, was shot and killed. Our local black politician, Ernie Chambers was outraged and fanned the black community into hte expected hysteria. I was hoping the headline would have run “What is America coming to, when a black man can’t steal a white man’s SUV, get in high speed chase with the police, put children playing in the street in danger, without fear of getting shot?”
Kyle
[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
what world are you living in where you feel free to assume that most “white folk” don’t know about Amadou Diallo?
For chrissakes, Bruce Springsteen even wrote a damn song about it.
And it’s easy to find fault with everyone.
But think about the hair trigger cops are on.
They literally don’t know whether they’ll come home at the end of their shift. Was it a tragedy? Yes.
But come on…
[/quote]
Wow, someone justifying what happened. Read this please:
He was shot…even after he was on the ground. That doesn’t take a hair trigger. It takes hatred and violence…one reason that entire Street Squad has since been disbanded. I have never seen a case where blacks have done anything like this and been acquitted of all charges. Please educate me as to some. Hell, just one, please. Let me know. I could be completely wrong. Show me the light.
I wasnt much interested in jumping into this thread after it changed gears into a race debate. I do want to correct some of the professor’s assumptions on the Diallo incident.
As soon as I heard about this case, it broke my heart. I have a lot of contact with guys like Diallo(hard working immigrants) and I respect them immensely. I call some of them friends.
He was shot by members of a street crimes unit(a very tough detail by the way), in a horrendous
neighborhood because he closely fit the description of a wanted violent rapist. The street crimes guys were doing their jobs…seeking out society’s predators.
It just so happens that they made a mistake. Diallo wasnt their guy. In fact, by all accounts he was one of the good guys. Because of a language barrier, he did not comply with the 4 officer’s commands. Instead he reached behind his back. Thats when he was shot in a hail of bullets(41 to be exact).
He was reaching for his wallet, as was later determined, probably in an attempt to produce ID because of the language barrier issues.
Where does race come into it? I know that there are a lot of people who tried to mold this incident, as they often do, to fit their
own agenda, but don’t believe it.
The root of the whole thing was combat stress. The bashers have never been there, under almost all circumstances. Sure they say they have been robbed, or in fights or shot at, but that is like saying you know how to investigate a car accident because you were hit once.
Did they fuck up? Obviously. Could better training have avoided this? Maybe. Tell that to the police administrators who want to pinch pennies at every turn or just simply don’t care(Ive fought this battle before).
A lot was made of the 41 shots, as if there was some kind of white police rage fueling their barrage. The informed know better. This is the “oh shit” effect of combat stress…one guy opens up and the others present figure he has cause and now want to put the bad guy down as fast as possible so they dont get hurt or shot. That is all there is to it…this phenomenon is well documented, especially with lesser trained warriors(we are not talking about extremely disciplined full-time SWAT officers here…that would be a different story).
He fit the description of a violent offender(who happened to be black) and did not comply with officer’s instructions. He made furtive movements to an area consistant with a location that people carry firearms.
The cops who made this mistake have to live with it forever. But let’s call it what it was, a horrible mistake…not proof of systematic racism by the police or US society in general. That is pure lunacy and perpetuates the problems that boiled to the surface earlier in this thread.
[quote]vandalay15 wrote:
This group bystander effect results because it takes 1 person to step up from a whole group. Not many people in our world stray from the norm and assume the lead role. People take their cues on how to act based on what others do. [/quote]
And that’s why I say people, by and large, are sheep, and don’t deserve the right to make their own decisions.
Just an example of a few individuals who should be forcibly sterilized.