Amputee Healings?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Body Hammer wrote:

[quote]koffea wrote:
this arguement “why hasnt god regenerated limbs?” is popping up in the humanist coffee house slums a lot lately. I have probably heard this arguement 3 dozen times in the last 4 or 5 months. Just interesting how a group can latch on to something, and how fast it propagates the world over.

they generally bait the christian - what would it take to make you not believe in god.
the christian responds “nothing” as if to admit a stalemate
the humanist says well if christians started regenerating limbs i would definitely start believing in god . . .

pretty ridiculous really[/quote]

How is this ridiculous exactly?
[/quote]
nice avi - i loved that show.

whats ridiculous is the tit for tat that goes on. and really it does not matter to either one in these settings. i dont know of a single christian that believes in hopes of getting over the sniffles, cancer, etc. They may pray for healing - its not the same as hinging your faith on it. their faith is based on something more fundamental then that.

belief in healings millenia’s ago might be in the tradition, but it is not a part of their personal spiritual experience. regenerating limbs might strengthen their religious experience, but lack of it wont hurt their spiritual experience. And for that matter, I dont believe for a second that a regenerated limb would convince hardened atheists - so what difference does it make?

really, humanism is just another belief system that establishes constructs that allow one group of people to feel more superior than another group of people. they like to embrace convenient facts and ignore inconvenient facts, just like all the other religions. some of their base beliefs are just as disturbing as all of the other religions. its certainly not the perfect belief system that most pot smoking college students make it out to be.

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[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Why would god heal the blind, cure cancer, and perform other miracles that just happen to occur spontaneously, but never, even once, perform miracles with no alternate explanation?[/quote]I give you my word that the account I gave about my friend in North Dakota is 100% true. This guy that I met when he was 19 had 10 years earlier had his crippled legs, as in knee caps pointing totally inward toward each other crippled, instantly healed, as in knee caps turn to the front before your eyes healed. He would convince even you that it happened. I knew him well for over a year before I found out and I saw the pictures of his legs as a child. It was a miracle. Trust me.

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[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< You’d think after he turned the Nile to blood, that Pharaoh would have listened…But nooooo, he had to be a bad ass.[/quote]Don’t forget about the campaigns of Joshua and Saul. Every man, women and child God told them. Not one survivor was to remain.
[/quote]

Hey, what was the parable in the Bible which is paraphrased something like "even if a man returns from the dead people would still not believe? Didn’t Lazarus say that to the rich man who was in hell?[/quote]

It was Abraham, actually.[/quote]

I’ll look it up, plus another quote if I can find it about miracles and why they will pass away after Christ’s ressurection. (edited)

here ya go, quote 1: 52. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:14-31) | Bible.org

quote 2: 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 NIV - Love never fails. But where there are - Bible Gateway

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[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If it’s not supposed to be a miracle, why do people constantly interpret it as such and use it to support their belief in their god?

And if god doesn’t prove himself through miracles, does nobody find it a little suspect that every single one of these “miracles” can occur spontaneously, while there isn’t a single example of something that would not be possible spontaneously?[/quote]

As I’ve posited before, science can never explain free will/non-determination. It is a) part of the standard copenhagan model of quantum physics and b) is by definition in that model “beyond further explanation” and yet free will would make every human thought and choice a miracle. Science can not explain why the universe is a collapsed wave function-an “observable” and not just a superposition of all mathematical possibilities.

I think the root of your question is not about “miracles”, but about why God allows pain. Maybe I’m wrong here, but let me ask, why would God heal a missing leg?

Why is there pain, and why doesn’t God just show himself beyond any human capacity to doubt seem to be the deeper questions. No?[/quote]

Why would god heal the blind, cure cancer, and perform other miracles that just happen to occur spontaneously, but never, even once, perform miracles with no alternate explanation?[/quote]

If you believed that God healed the blind, cured cancer and performed other explainable miracles, the question wouldn’t matter would it?

If you don’t believe that God healed the blind, cured cancer and performed other explainable miracles, the question wouldn’t matter would it?

Either Christ is Risen and nothing else matters, or Christ is not Risen and nothing else matters.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Why would god heal the blind, cure cancer, and perform other miracles that just happen to occur spontaneously, but never, even once, perform miracles with no alternate explanation?[/quote]I give you my word that the account I gave about my friend in North Dakota is 100% true. This guy that I met when he was 19 had 10 years earlier had his crippled legs, as in knee caps pointing totally inward toward each other crippled, instantly healed, as in knee caps turn to the front before your eyes healed. He would convince even you that it happened. I knew him well for over a year before I found out and I saw the pictures of his legs as a child. It was a miracle. Trust me.
[/quote]

I give you my word the account of this guy that knows this guy that I once heard about. He saw a pig sprout wings and fly. I knew this pig for well over a year before I found out and I saw pictures of the wingless pig. It was a miracle. Trust me.

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Faith and luck is what heal people. God doesn’t give a shit about your sorry ass!
Those people believing that god himself saved them have incredibly huge ego! Do they really believe they deserve God’s direct own intervention? Come own! You’re not better than that innocent child being tortured in the most horrific manner by some perv!

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Maybe the miracles are more subtle…so much so that we take them for granted.
For example…AIDS was a death sentence a few decades ago. Now, many with AIDS live somewhat normally. Maybe God worked the miracle through the medical profession to advance the cure. Same with cancer. Same with prosthetic devices. They weren’t nearly advanced a few decades ago as they are now. If an 1950 amputee could see what they do now with a prosthetic (run a marathon, for example), he might say it’s a marvel, or miracle.

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[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Maybe the miracles are more subtle…so much so that we take them for granted.
For example…AIDS was a death sentence a few decades ago. Now, many with AIDS live somewhat normally. Maybe God worked the miracle through the medical profession to advance the cure. Same with cancer. Same with prosthetic devices. They weren’t nearly advanced a few decades ago as they are now. If an 1950 amputee could see what they do now with a prosthetic (run a marathon, for example), he might say it’s a marvel, or miracle.[/quote]

But we know why it is possible now, which pretty much does destroys the idea that it is a miracle.

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< Either Christ is Risen and nothing else matters, or Christ is not Risen and nothing else matters.[/quote]OUTSTANDING!!! There is just no way I can say this without you taking it the wrong way, but if you only really understood how the towering profundity that you just typed destroys the declared epistemology of Aristotle and Aquinas. I’ll leave it to Gods grace what it means for you, but this statement of yours is THE sum of absolutely EVERYTHING that is ,was and is to come. All knowledge, being and potentiality for all time and eternity as it pertains to created man.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< Either Christ is Risen and nothing else matters, or Christ is not Risen and nothing else matters.[/quote]OUTSTANDING!!! There is just no way I can say this without you taking it the wrong way, but if you only really understood how the towering profundity that you just typed destroys the declared epistemology of Aristotle and Aquinas. I’ll leave it to Gods grace what it means for you, but this statement of yours is THE sum of absolutely EVERYTHING that is ,was and is to come. All knowledge, being and potentiality for all time and eternity as it pertains to created man.
[/quote]

It doesn’t destroy it, it complements it. Rather, Aquinas, Augustine, and Aristotle compliment him and this event…

You want to know what that fact actually destroys?
Divine Election. This man made farce of a satanic, apostasy renders Christ’s death and ressurection, meaningless. If God already orchestrated our destiny there was no need to redeem us for what we didn’t do, because it put all culpability for our sins on God. God didn’t need to die to redeem himself. Therefore divine election is crap, plain and simple.

Now bravely run away like you always do.

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s easy to give your god credit for healing something that is known to spontaneously heal anyway.

A true miracle would be a healing, like restoring an amputated limb, that has never occurred spontaneously.

I’ve brought this up before, and believers never have an answer.
[/quote]

never have an answer? I think that God doesn’t want people to believe in him because of miracles.

[/quote]

You’d better avoid the bible then, because there’s a shit ton of accounts of god providing miracles in order to get people to believe in him.

Fail.

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[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< Either Christ is Risen and nothing else matters, or Christ is not Risen and nothing else matters.[/quote]OUTSTANDING!!! There is just no way I can say this without you taking it the wrong way, but if you only really understood how the towering profundity that you just typed destroys the declared epistemology of Aristotle and Aquinas. I’ll leave it to Gods grace what it means for you, but this statement of yours is THE sum of absolutely EVERYTHING that is ,was and is to come. All knowledge, being and potentiality for all time and eternity as it pertains to created man.
[/quote]

It doesn’t destroy it, it complements it. Rather, Aquinas, Augustine, and Aristotle compliment him and this event…

You want to know what that fact actually destroys?
Divine Election. This man made farce of a satanic, apostasy renders Christ’s death and ressurection, meaningless. If God already orchestrated our destiny there was no need to redeem us for what we didn’t do, because it put all culpability for our sins on God. God didn’t need to die to redeem himself. Therefore divine election is crap, plain and simple.

Now bravely run away like you always do.[/quote]You’re clueless Pat. You have absolutely no more comprehension of what I believe than you did a year ago. Even after you copied and pasted some perfectly sound excerpts on the flawlessly biblical tulip doctrines you still have grasped exactly none of it. You are a walking breathing, typing straw man. EDIT: That doesn’t make you stupid or even dishonest in my view. Just wanted to make that clear.

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Personally, I don’t think that if we can explain something, it’s less miraculous. Maybe in definition, but not necessarily in effect.

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[quote]byukid wrote:
Personally, I don’t think that if we can explain something, it’s less miraculous. Maybe in definition, but not necessarily in effect. [/quote]

Science =/= miracle.

It might be awesome, but not miraculous.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
What I really think we need is another religious thread where believers can try to speculate why God does what he does, and atheists can ridicule the idea that God exists. More of these threads are needed because we never know how they’re going to end. And that’s because THEY NEVER END they just keep going and going, one after the other endlessly.

[/quote]

Holy shit we agree on something.

God works in ways that many times, but not always seem mysterious to us, yet are ALWAYS for HIS glory. Unbelievers will never understand this?[/quote]Fixed that for ya.
[/quote]

As opposed as we are in almost all our views on religion (me being an atheist and all), holy shit, for once I KIND of agree with you.

At least you’re not pretending that god’s good, as we understand it. Hey, the best theistic argument for me would be for someone to say that god is powerful, can do what the fuck he wants, and doesn’t give a fuck about anyone else. This doesn’t make him good in my eyes, but like I said, if a big powerful being doesn’t give a fuck about our feelings, at least it is a consistent theology.

That at least, would be internally consistent with what we see around us.

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[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Now a Christian will post back about how sin entered the world when Adam and Eve fell from grace, thus bringing all of this upon us.
[/quote]

Bring what, amputees? Is there no room for bad luck in this world? And wouldn’t accidents be possible even in paradise? Is amputation a result of sin? [/quote]

Christian View: There would have been no amputees in a perfect world which was BEFORE the fall of man.

Atheist View: Ha Ha what a bunch of crap! Things happen man and there is no fairy tale created by man which can change this.

Can we stop now?

[/quote]

If the world was perfect BEFORE the fall of man, then how did the fall of man occur?

Y u no see this?

77

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< At least you’re not pretending that god’s good, as we understand it. >>>[/quote]Never have. He’s good as He understands it and we are good or bad in direct proportion to our conformity to Him. In other words, left to ourselves we’re screwed. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:Hey, the best theistic argument for me would be for someone to say that god is powerful, can do what the fuck he wants, >>>[/quote]I have said this in different words a thousand times here. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:and doesn’t give a fuck about anyone else. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false, as the incarnation, sinless life, willful sacrifice, resurrection and glorification of GOD THE SON on the behalf of others who fully deserve eternal death maximally demonstrates. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< This doesn’t make him good in my eyes, >>>[/quote]He IS not only good in my eyes, but incomprehensibly great. mighty, powerful, just, holy, righteous, loving, merciful and gracious because my eyes have been opened by He Himself and thus enabled to see Him AND myself as He does. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< but like I said, if a big powerful being doesn’t give a fuck about our feelings, at least it is a consistent theology.
That at least, would be internally consistent with what we see around us.
[/quote]Everything He is and does is absolutely for Himself as well it should be. He loves His elect for His own glory. He hates the rest for His own glory. He saves the lost for His own glory. He damns the lost for His own glory. He creates and destroys for His own glory and praise be to His incomparable name He allows me the unthinkable privilege of participating in His own glorification in whatever ways HE sees fit. See, I know what you’re thinkin. WTF!!! I ain’t bowin to no invisible phantom who gives life and takes it at His pleasure while demanding my unconditional surrender and obedience to rules that He Himself isn’t bound by!!! I understand. I lived my first 20 years right there with ya.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< At least you’re not pretending that god’s good, as we understand it. >>>[/quote]Never have. He’s good as He understands it and we are good or bad in direct proportion to our conformity to Him. In other words, left to ourselves we’re screwed. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:Hey, the best theistic argument for me would be for someone to say that god is powerful, can do what the fuck he wants, >>>[/quote]I have said this in different words a thousand times here. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:and doesn’t give a fuck about anyone else. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false, as the incarnation, sinless life, willful sacrifice, resurrection and glorification of GOD THE SON on the behalf of others who fully deserve eternal death maximally demonstrates. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< This doesn’t make him good in my eyes, >>>[/quote]He IS not only good in my eyes, but incomprehensibly great. mighty, powerful, just, holy, righteous, loving, merciful and gracious because my eyes have been opened by He Himself and thus enabled to see Him AND myself as He does. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< but like I said, if a big powerful being doesn’t give a fuck about our feelings, at least it is a consistent theology.
That at least, would be internally consistent with what we see around us.
[/quote]Everything He is and does is absolutely for Himself as well it should be. He loves His elect for His own glory. He hates the rest for His own glory. He saves the lost for His own glory. He damns the lost for His own glory. He creates and destroys for His own glory and praise be to His incomparable name He allows me the unthinkable privilege of participating in His own glorification in whatever ways HE sees fit. See, I know what you’re thinkin. WTF!!! I ain’t bowin to no invisible phantom who gives life and takes it at His pleasure while demanding my unconditional surrender and obedience to rules that He Himself isn’t bound by!!! I understand. I lived my first 20 years right there with ya.
[/quote]

So, you just said God is evil except in your eyes? That ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are relative depending on your point of view? And you really don’t see the flaw in this reasoning? I mean really?
Honestly, you sound almost occultish and brainwashed, not faithful out of love.

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Ya know what scares me for you Pat? This magicpunch guy who makes no pretense to faith in any way will understand what I just said while you absolutely do not.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya know what scares me for you Pat? This magicpunch guy who makes no pretense to faith in any way will understand what I just while you absolutely do not.[/quote]

Maybe I need to sniff more glue to make sense of it…You just told him you made no pretense that God is Good, did you not? You just agreed with him that in fact that God is not good, did you not? I mean those were your words…