Amputee Healings?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
82

[quote]pushharder wrote:
If I may interject here…Pat, you are deliberately being Orion-ish here, that is, obtuse to a fault. You are figuratively holding your hands over your eyes and complaining that you can’t see Tirib and…chanting, “Nan-nan-nan-nan-nah!”

Tirib, you are doing a bang-up job. My compliments.[/quote]

Forgive me, but after being called evil and a whore many, many times over, I tend to e somewhat less than amicable…
There’s a long history here.

Don’t tell me you believe in predestination too?

83

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< At least you’re not pretending that god’s good, as we understand it. >>>[/quote]Never have. He’s good as He understands it and we are good or bad in direct proportion to our conformity to Him. In other words, left to ourselves we’re screwed. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:Hey, the best theistic argument for me would be for someone to say that god is powerful, can do what the fuck he wants, >>>[/quote]I have said this in different words a thousand times here. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:and doesn’t give a fuck about anyone else. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false, as the incarnation, sinless life, willful sacrifice, resurrection and glorification of GOD THE SON on the behalf of others who fully deserve eternal death maximally demonstrates. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< This doesn’t make him good in my eyes, >>>[/quote]He IS not only good in my eyes, but incomprehensibly great. mighty, powerful, just, holy, righteous, loving, merciful and gracious because my eyes have been opened by He Himself and thus enabled to see Him AND myself as He does. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< but like I said, if a big powerful being doesn’t give a fuck about our feelings, at least it is a consistent theology.
That at least, would be internally consistent with what we see around us.
[/quote]Everything He is and does is absolutely for Himself as well it should be. He loves His elect for His own glory. He hates the rest for His own glory. He saves the lost for His own glory. He damns the lost for His own glory. He creates and destroys for His own glory and praise be to His incomparable name He allows me the unthinkable privilege of participating in His own glorification in whatever ways HE sees fit. See, I know what you’re thinkin. WTF!!! I ain’t bowin to no invisible phantom who gives life and takes it at His pleasure while demanding my unconditional surrender and obedience to rules that He Himself isn’t bound by!!! I understand. I lived my first 20 years right there with ya.
[/quote]

In other words, your god is a narcissistic prick who only cares about his own glorification. Sounds a lot like Satan to me.

In contrast, Jesus taught that God is Love, which is about caring for the happiness of others, rather than being obsessed with your own needs and wants.

85

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
If I may interject here…Pat, you are deliberately being Orion-ish here, that is, obtuse to a fault. You are figuratively holding your hands over your eyes and complaining that you can’t see Tirib and…chanting, “Nan-nan-nan-nan-nah!”

Tirib, you are doing a bang-up job. My compliments.[/quote]

Forgive me, but after being called evil and a whore many, many times over, I tend to e somewhat less than amicable…There’s a long history here…[/quote]

I have bumped heads from time to time with Uncle Tirib too. But not often.[quote]

Don’t tell me you believe in predestination too?[/quote]

I believe it is a very complex subject and the semantics can easily trip one up in their quest for insight.

I also believe that most folks simply do not fully fathom the concepts of omniscience, omnipotence and who and what an Almighty God truly is. Until that occurs predestination is too deep of water for one to be swimming in.
[/quote]

I agree up until here: “predestination is too deep of water for one to be swimming in”. ← Determinism vs. freewill is a complex topic, in that neither can be proven to exist at all, but either we are or we are not preordained to make good or bad choices / go to heaven or hell. Predestination is absolute with no exceptions and it is the common tenet of atheists, not most theists. I am happy to discuss specifics in a civil manor…

86

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< At least you’re not pretending that god’s good, as we understand it. >>>[/quote]Never have. He’s good as He understands it and we are good or bad in direct proportion to our conformity to Him. In other words, left to ourselves we’re screwed. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:Hey, the best theistic argument for me would be for someone to say that god is powerful, can do what the fuck he wants, >>>[/quote]I have said this in different words a thousand times here. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:and doesn’t give a fuck about anyone else. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false, as the incarnation, sinless life, willful sacrifice, resurrection and glorification of GOD THE SON on the behalf of others who fully deserve eternal death maximally demonstrates. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< This doesn’t make him good in my eyes, >>>[/quote]He IS not only good in my eyes, but incomprehensibly great. mighty, powerful, just, holy, righteous, loving, merciful and gracious because my eyes have been opened by He Himself and thus enabled to see Him AND myself as He does. [quote]Magicpunch wrote:<<< but like I said, if a big powerful being doesn’t give a fuck about our feelings, at least it is a consistent theology.
That at least, would be internally consistent with what we see around us.
[/quote]Everything He is and does is absolutely for Himself as well it should be. He loves His elect for His own glory. He hates the rest for His own glory. He saves the lost for His own glory. He damns the lost for His own glory. He creates and destroys for His own glory and praise be to His incomparable name He allows me the unthinkable privilege of participating in His own glorification in whatever ways HE sees fit. See, I know what you’re thinkin. WTF!!! I ain’t bowin to no invisible phantom who gives life and takes it at His pleasure while demanding my unconditional surrender and obedience to rules that He Himself isn’t bound by!!! I understand. I lived my first 20 years right there with ya.
[/quote]

In other words, your god is a narcissistic prick who only cares about his own glorification. Sounds a lot like Satan to me.

In contrast, Jesus taught that God is Love, which is about caring for the happiness of others, rather than being obsessed with your own needs and wants.
[/quote]

As you can see Tirib, your explanation sucked. This is what I meant. This is how you described God to the masses.
If I never knew about God and your above explanation was the only description of God I have ever heard, my thoughts would echo exactly what forlife just said.

Quite frankly, forlife’s reaction responding to the precisness of your description.

You think I misunderstood, and your wrong. I know what you trying to say. Which is this:
God is good, because God defines good. God is not bound by the rules of his creation and his work, though sometimes seemingly unpleasant looking is for ultimate good. ← This is the ‘nutshell’ version. What you described though? It’s exactly as forlife took it…That’s a problem.
You don’t do your cause much good by telling people that God is a dick who seeks his own pleasure and you can get one board or go strait to hell. ← That was your description in a nutshell. Sounds like Jaba the Hut, more than God. I happen to think that God is a heck of a nice guy, myself.
Really, can you see why the linguistics of your prose is a problem? Can you see why people may get the wrong impression?

87

[quote]pat wrote:
Can you see why people may get the right impression?
[/quote]

fixed

88

You are in for a very rude awakening Pat. Hopefully BEFORE you die. I mean that. I am on your side, but the sugar daddy hippified commune leader you call God is an idol created in your own image. There’s a lotta that goin around.

89

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Next time you’re with a group of children, and their parents, tell them all about this. See how they react.

“My god killed a bunch of kids about your age, once. Its ok, he promised he would.”[/quote]It was more than once and it’s common knowledge among the fanatics I roll with… and their children. Rest easy. We also know that our God in His Christ fulfilled all the earthly dominion and His kingdom not being of this world will never require that again.
[/quote]

So, and I guess I’m being kinda serial here, what’s the point of living? Just to praise God and sort of accept that he plans your death and it’s out of your hands? Like, when you see genocides in Africa do you think we should stop those? If the people getting killed are just going to heaven then what’s the point of stopping it? I don’t get the life perspective here.

90

Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.

91

[quote]saveski wrote:
Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.[/quote]

IF one accepted your (argument sake) premises that God performs explainable miracles like curing cancer and healing other diseases, but does not heal amputees, the obvious answer would be that he only performs miracles that could have another explanation. Or put another way he only performs miracles that don’t violate laws of physics, but that he only shifts or manipulates reality within the parameters of the probabalistic laws of physics.

92

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.[/quote]

IF one accepted your (argument sake) premises that God performs explainable miracles like curing cancer and healing other diseases, but does not heal amputees, the obvious answer would be that he only performs miracles that could have another explanation. Or put another way he only performs miracles that don’t violate laws of physics, but that he only shifts or manipulates reality within the parameters of the probabalistic laws of physics.
[/quote]

or simply doesnt exist.

93

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.[/quote]

IF one accepted your (argument sake) premises that God performs explainable miracles like curing cancer and healing other diseases, but does not heal amputees, the obvious answer would be that he only performs miracles that could have another explanation. Or put another way he only performs miracles that don’t violate laws of physics, but that he only shifts or manipulates reality within the parameters of the probabalistic laws of physics.
[/quote]

I thought god was supposed to be omnipotent. What you’re saying, essentially, is that miracles don’t exist and everything follows the laws of nature. If that is true, a supernatural god is both impossible and unnecessary.

94

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You are in for a very rude awakening Pat. Hopefully BEFORE you die. I mean that. I am on your side, but the sugar daddy hippified commune leader you call God is an idol created in your own image. There’s a lotta that goin around.
[/quote]

My god is gonna getcha if ya don’t watch out!!!

95

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Next time you’re with a group of children, and their parents, tell them all about this. See how they react.

“My god killed a bunch of kids about your age, once. Its ok, he promised he would.”[/quote]It was more than once and it’s common knowledge among the fanatics I roll with… and their children. Rest easy. We also know that our God in His Christ fulfilled all the earthly dominion and His kingdom not being of this world will never require that again.
[/quote]

So, and I guess I’m being kinda serial here, what’s the point of living? Just to praise God and sort of accept that he plans your death and it’s out of your hands? Like, when you see genocides in Africa do you think we should stop those? If the people getting killed are just going to heaven then what’s the point of stopping it? I don’t get the life perspective here.[/quote]On the contrary. There is no point in living were it not for His all encompassing purpose.

96

[quote]saveski wrote:
Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.[/quote]

How do you know it has never happened? Do you know the fate of every amputee that has ever lived on the Earth? If not, you don’t know.

97

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Next time you’re with a group of children, and their parents, tell them all about this. See how they react.

“My god killed a bunch of kids about your age, once. Its ok, he promised he would.”[/quote]It was more than once and it’s common knowledge among the fanatics I roll with… and their children. Rest easy. We also know that our God in His Christ fulfilled all the earthly dominion and His kingdom not being of this world will never require that again.
[/quote]

So, and I guess I’m being kinda serial here, what’s the point of living? Just to praise God and sort of accept that he plans your death and it’s out of your hands? Like, when you see genocides in Africa do you think we should stop those? If the people getting killed are just going to heaven then what’s the point of stopping it? I don’t get the life perspective here.[/quote]On the contrary. There is no point in living were it not for His all encompassing purpose.
[/quote]

How sad that you’re not able to find any happiness, peace, or love in life without believing in a supernatural puppet master pulling your strings.

98

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.[/quote]

IF one accepted your (argument sake) premises that God performs explainable miracles like curing cancer and healing other diseases, but does not heal amputees, the obvious answer would be that he only performs miracles that could have another explanation. Or put another way he only performs miracles that don’t violate laws of physics, but that he only shifts or manipulates reality within the parameters of the probabalistic laws of physics.
[/quote]

or simply doesnt exist.[/quote]

That is not consistent with his stated premise.

99

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You are in for a very rude awakening Pat. Hopefully BEFORE you die. I mean that. I am on your side, but the sugar daddy hippified commune leader you call God is an idol created in your own image. There’s a lotta that goin around.
[/quote]

What awakening would that be? How do you know I am not right?

Do me a favor and do not concern yourself with my fate.

If I were God, I would be very offended by your description of Him. If I make him out to he a hippie, you make Him out to be Stalin. Hippies are better people than evil communist dictators.

Your big fat flaw is you think you know things, you don’t and cannot know.

Enlighten me guru, don’t let me walk in this darkness…

100

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
Still no answer to my post - why has God never healed an amputee?

I see all kinds of other mumbo-jumbo but no ANSWERs.[/quote]

IF one accepted your (argument sake) premises that God performs explainable miracles like curing cancer and healing other diseases, but does not heal amputees, the obvious answer would be that he only performs miracles that could have another explanation. Or put another way he only performs miracles that don’t violate laws of physics, but that he only shifts or manipulates reality within the parameters of the probabalistic laws of physics.
[/quote]

I thought god was supposed to be omnipotent. What you’re saying, essentially, is that miracles don’t exist and everything follows the laws of nature. If that is true, a supernatural god is both impossible and unnecessary.[/quote]

Define Omnipotent. IF God is truely omnipotent to the extreme definition then he can violate the constricts of logical argument. You can’t logically limit a OMNIPOTENT being.

Others have argued that God is omnipotent to the degree that he sets the laws and does but not break his own laws.

If he is the creator of natural laws, and desires not to violate them, then when he heals an amputee, he would do so by going back in time and keeping it from happening in the first place and we’d never know.

Or he would erase any inconsistency from the history of the universe and we’d never know.

Or if he wanted to change something that would be unexplainable, he’d change the laws of physics and then we wouldn’t consider it to be unexplainable anymore.

Lastly, all that my statement requires is that a god would chose not to perform miracles by violating the lmits of physics, but only by manipulating reality within probabilistic constraints. If its a choice then it does not limit omnipotence.

But “some god” could still steer the universe within probability limits, and he actually does this through our unexplainable free will ability to affect the universe within the limits of probability. Some “god” whatever you call it, only need to be the last step beyond the edge of scientific explanation, and that science itself requires. Science can never completely describe reality because science is a creature of reality. It is part of it and a map can never contain the territory that it is mapping, unless the map is greater than the territory.

So as far as God being possible or necessary, that does not require that he perform unexplainable mysteries, except the one unexplainable mystery of non-determinism, which allows the ability for “probabalistic miracles”. Would it be explainable if you flipped a coin and it cam up heads 50 straight times? A god could avoid violating laws, and still basically dtermine the coin flip for every binary quantum event.

“Everytihing” does not follow the laws of physics anyway. The laws of physics are non-deterministic. They only set limits so that part is a misunderstanding too.