Americas New Defender of Capitalism.

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]ZEB wrote:
This is a good video which dissects at least some of the things that are in this horrible, horrible health care bill. After viewing this video it will be obvious to those who are not yet aware that this is pure socialism:[/quote]

Damn Zeb, that was poerfull, and nothing but the truth. If you don’t watch that video and walk away PISSED OFF!, well then, you’re simply not an American IMHO. Fuck this bill, and fuck the statists who are trying to ram this down our throats. This is the sort of governance that WILL bring about the next revolution, and force freedom loving individuals to band together and overthrow their opressive government…again.

22

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
The “best hospital care money can buy in the U.S.” is not found in Bismark, North Dakota.

[/quote]
And what does that say about the care he received in Canada?

He could go to a small town in the US and get better care than he could in Canada. 'Nuff said.[/quote]

Okay, I’m not a fan of socialized medicine, but these comparisons are complete bullshit.

Bismarck has somewhere around 100,000 people (Metropolitan), is the state capital, and has colleges and a University.

Gimli on the other hand has less than 6,000 people, and that’s about it.

The reason why medical care sucks there is because it’s a nothing town, that’s about an hour away from a larger center. If you went to a similar sized town in the Dakotas that was near, but not too close to a larger center, you would probably find the same shit health care.

There are problems with socialized medicine, but this story was weak.

23

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Are you telling me I cannot go into a drug store and buy medicine whenever I need it?
[/quote]

Actually, and that is the fun part of these obscure -isms, german FDP (libertarian party), who is in partly in charge right now, is quite against online drugstores. I thought this is a prime example of “let the individual decide”?
Free market mechanisms like competition can always be circimvented, and that’s exactly what every big corporation does, especially in an unregulated environment.
So called libertarianism is often just an excuse to get showered with corporate schmear, an ideology to cope with one’s guilt, similar to the sin-and-repent idea of christianity.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The market works just fine though yes I agree the government is trying to circumvent it and give us socialism.[/quote]

The real problem is that tags like “socialism”, “capitalism” et al don’t function anymore and prevent a good discussion about what’s could be done in our 21st C.

24

Make sure you get enough fiber kiddies!

25

Schwarzfahrer, my point still stands.

Whereas the market will always give me choices about my own livelihood the government takes them away.

The end.

26

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schwarzfahrer, my point still stands.

Whereas the market will always give me choices about my own livelihood the government takes them away.

The end.[/quote]

Absolutely.

27

Yes “the market”, the invisible, naked idea of that entity.

But where is it?

In your fantasy it’s surely there.
Like with communism; in theory, it’s awesome. Which you -rightfully- never fail to point out.

In reality, both screw us up a certain bodypart, taking turns.

28

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Yes “the market”, the invisible, naked idea of that entity.

But where is it?

[/quote]
In all of economic reality there exists only two states:

Power or Market.

Market is that state of economic productivity where individuals exchange one set of lesser affairs for affairs that they perceive to be better. Market does not exist an any spacial-temporal “place”, per se. The market can only exist in voluntary society.

Power is a state of “authority” and really what we are talking about here is the power structure that attempts to circumvent the market. Power does not really exist in human social terms but the market does. The power structure operates in coercive society as that is how it is maintained – by command and force.

29

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Yes “the market”, the invisible, naked idea of that entity.

But where is it?

In your fantasy it’s surely there.
Like with communism; in theory, it’s awesome. Which you -rightfully- never fail to point out.

In reality, both screw us up a certain bodypart, taking turns.

[/quote]

But capitalism askes me nicely and is sometimes gentle and generous whereas socialism is bed in bed and never calls.

30

I agree to a point, the communistic idea is, in comparison, much more ham handed and unsexy.
Big brother doesn’t have to lie that good since it’s already hard coded in the system that he’s always right.

For a good example we just have to look at the sparkling heroes on the silver screen.
Now let’s see what the eastern bloc had to match…hero of work, oh great…

But really, it’s a buffett where only the shit-sandwich and the shit-burger is left?
Nothing else?
And why can’t I mix the sandwich without turd with the shit free burger parts?

31

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
And why can’t I mix the sandwich without turd with the shit free burger parts?
[/quote]
Aggression Lite?

32

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I agree to a point, the communistic idea is, in comparison, much more ham handed and unsexy.
Big brother doesn’t have to lie that good since it’s already hard coded in the system that he’s always right.

For a good example we just have to look at the sparkling heroes on the silver screen.
Now let’s see what the eastern bloc had to match…hero of work, oh great…

But really, it’s a buffett where only the shit-sandwich and the shit-burger is left?
Nothing else?
And why can’t I mix the sandwich without turd with the shit free burger parts?
[/quote]

Because you are morally obligated to eat as much shit as a majority dictates that you eat.

Or so they tell us.

33

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In all of economic reality there exists only two states:
Power or Market.

Market is that state of economic productivity where individuals exchange one set of lesser affairs for affairs that they perceive to be better. Market does not exist an any spacial-temporal “place”, per se. The market can only exist in voluntary society.

Power is a state of “authority” and really what we are talking about here is the power structure that attempts to circumvent the market. Power does not really exist in human social terms but the market does. The power structure operates in coercive society as that is how it is maintained – by command and force.[/quote]

I’m not sure about the power. I think it’s rather the base of all social contracts.
In other words -and that is my ultimate test to most sociologic ideas- why shouldn’t someone just bash your head in?
You can bluff in poker or outsmart in chess. You can even cheat successfully in both, but the game doesn’t end with your win when the other guy decides he wants to introduce you to Mr. Fist.
I think the market is highly virtual, especially in the western world, and power is dangerously real, even if they keep telling us it’s not.
That’s why the masses will ALWAYS have to be pacified via “socialistic” means (not exactly by a genius consiracy, but rather through unspectacular, systemic structure) to some degree.

Care to share some material that I could read myself into to better understand your power theory?

34

[quote]orion wrote:
Because you are morally obligated to eat as much shit as a majority dictates that you eat.
Or so they tell us.

[/quote]

No I mean: why can’t I have the best of both worlds? Is it verboten?

The chinese do it to a degree; probably the evil version.
I want an even better capitalism/socialism mix!

35

Is it too much to ask that the Insurance Providers (who do not actually provide any care, but just take in and distribute money) don’t skim 30% off the top and deny care to people? There’s no reason a CEO of an insurance company should be making 100’s of millions of dollars for being a middle man. They are not adding value to our society.

I’d like to see anti-trust legislation introduced to the health insurance industry, and then maybe we’d get some competition, open up the ability to buy insurance from other states too. Actually have competition.

US health CARE is the best. US health INSURANCE has problems.

36

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In all of economic reality there exists only two states:
Power or Market.

Market is that state of economic productivity where individuals exchange one set of lesser affairs for affairs that they perceive to be better. Market does not exist an any spacial-temporal “place”, per se. The market can only exist in voluntary society.

Power is a state of “authority” and really what we are talking about here is the power structure that attempts to circumvent the market. Power does not really exist in human social terms but the market does. The power structure operates in coercive society as that is how it is maintained – by command and force.[/quote]

I’m not sure about the power. I think it’s rather the base of all social contracts.
In other words -and that is my ultimate test to most sociologic ideas- why shouldn’t someone just bash your head in?
You can bluff in poker or outsmart in chess. You can even cheat successfully in both, but the game doesn’t end with your win when the other guy decides he wants to introduce you to Mr. Fist.
I think the market is highly virtual, especially in the western world, and power is dangerously real, even if they keep telling us it’s not.
That’s why the masses will ALWAYS have to be pacified via “socialistic” means (not exactly by a genius consiracy, but rather through unspectacular, systemic structure) to some degree.

Care to share some material that I could read myself into to better understand your power theory?
[/quote]

Again, power is not real. The power structure is! People who desire authority must obtain it by means of the power structure or they must use outright violence. The power structure gives them legitimacy to gain authority, as Orion so eloquently put it a few posts up. Violence typically does not lead to legitimate rule as there will be others waiting in the wings to overthrown this new “power” with violence of its own. And hence it is fleeting; though I firmly beleive there are people who delude themselves into believing in its realness. That is the problem.

The social contract is an implied contract that must be based on voluntary cooperation. In fact, I would call the use of the power structure to enter into or maintain such contracts “anti-social”. Society cannot exist outside of cooperative efforts. In fact, even government cannot exist without this implied contract.

Given the choice people will always choose to enter a voluntary contract before they would choose coercive contracts unless it is them that is using coercion to enter into it. That, in my mind, cannot even be rightly called a contract. That is thuggery – and the primary means of the state.

37

[quote]The Monarch wrote:
Is it too much to ask that the Insurance Providers (who do not actually provide any care, but just take in and distribute money) don’t skim 30% off the top and deny care to people? There’s no reason a CEO of an insurance company should be making 100’s of millions of dollars for being a middle man. They are not adding value to our society.

I’d like to see anti-trust legislation introduced to the health insurance industry, and then maybe we’d get some competition, open up the ability to buy insurance from other states too. Actually have competition.

US health CARE is the best. US health INSURANCE has problems. [/quote]

The problem with US health insurance IS… Dun Dun Dun… Government interference.

V

38

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
The chinese do it to a degree; probably the evil version.
I want an even better capitalism/socialism mix!
[/quote]
Fascism!

You cannot have a mixture of the two. Where there is socialism capitalism does not exist. Capitalism is a doctrine of property exchange in a market based economy. Socialism seeks to do away with the entire concept of property altogether and hence it replaces a market economy with a command economy (i.e., Power). The two ideas are entirely diametrically opposed to each other.

What is going to happen to the Chinese economy as they become “wealthier” but their all loving government does not let them enter into property contracts because it does not allow the ownership of property? Right now they are commanded to save but they have a hunger to consume – after all, what is the point of productivity with out some of the benefits it bestows?

I think the communists are quietly conceding the power of capitalism to transform society though they would never publicly admit it.

39

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]The Monarch wrote:
Is it too much to ask that the Insurance Providers (who do not actually provide any care, but just take in and distribute money) don’t skim 30% off the top and deny care to people? There’s no reason a CEO of an insurance company should be making 100’s of millions of dollars for being a middle man. They are not adding value to our society.

I’d like to see anti-trust legislation introduced to the health insurance industry, and then maybe we’d get some competition, open up the ability to buy insurance from other states too. Actually have competition.

US health CARE is the best. US health INSURANCE has problems. [/quote]

The problem with US health insurance IS… Dun Dun Dun… Government interference.

V[/quote]

Could you elaborate, please?

40

[quote]The Monarch wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]The Monarch wrote:
Is it too much to ask that the Insurance Providers (who do not actually provide any care, but just take in and distribute money) don’t skim 30% off the top and deny care to people? There’s no reason a CEO of an insurance company should be making 100’s of millions of dollars for being a middle man. They are not adding value to our society.

I’d like to see anti-trust legislation introduced to the health insurance industry, and then maybe we’d get some competition, open up the ability to buy insurance from other states too. Actually have competition.

US health CARE is the best. US health INSURANCE has problems. [/quote]

The problem with US health insurance IS… Dun Dun Dun… Government interference.

V[/quote]

Could you elaborate, please?
[/quote]

The free market didn’t just decide to not let competition, or to give huge breaks to employer based healthcare vs personalized healthcare. The governemnt pulls the strings, sets the playing field so to speak. If they removed some of the rules which seem to favor the rich, I think competition would drive prices down, and people could buy and afford health insurance just like they buy a homeowners policy, a car insurance policy or a life insurance policy.

V