American Companies Caving to Chinese Censorship

[pat]

I don’t recall expressing a view on how Chinese lived their lives. The question centered around the whether the Chinese people favor their government.
We both have anecdotal evidence informing our views but you are grandstanding I am not.

I did have the benefit of talking to a young Chinese ex-pat for a good while just the other day. I asked him if he wouldn’t mind talking about why he left.
“I leave because CCP” he says. “I leave because I hate Chinese government.”
So I proposed to him that most Chinese stay because they are complacent and don’t really care about the government in their day to day lives.
He balked at this idea. He said, and I am paraphrasing that most people he knows hates the government, period. He continued to say that people can’t and won’t talk about it because they will be arrested.
Then he dropped my favorite line of the night, “Communist is stupid!”
We had a grand old time talking about all this stuff, we went on to talk about Hong Kong and Tienanmen Square and general Chinese oppression. He was very open about it and he’s very glad to be here and I let him know that I was glad he was here too.
Pretty similar to just about ever conversation I have ever had with a former Chinese citizen.

These conversations inform me that most Chinese people do care about the oppression of the Chinese government, they are not complacent, they just cannot do anything about it.
Is it scientific? no. Is it concrete proof? Of course not. Is it possible that some Chinese people like the government as is? Certainly.
What I don’t get is the vibe that the vast majority of Chinese are just fine with way things are, or simply don’t care.

[dt79]

What is an “ex-pat”?

@pat

I don’t recall expressing a view on how Chinese lived their lives. The question centered around the whether the Chinese people favor their government.

You wrote “nobody knows how they feel about the government”. I made the point that people do criticize the government in their everyday lives. Who says they don’t? These things are part of normal conversations.

@pat

We both have anecdotal evidence informing our views but you are grandstanding I am not.

How was I grandstanding? I wrote that I have relatives in China and I have done business and purchased property there, which is why I am quite in tune with the mindset of people there. You don’t get to do business in China unless you’re familiar with the multitude of unspoken rules and structures in place both in the private and government sectors. How would you even know who to bribe?

@pat

“I leave because CCP” he says. “I leave because I hate Chinese government.”

Come on man. Did you make this up? This isn’t how Chinese people speak. This sounds like some kind of sound bite from a clip taken from youtube.

@pat

So I proposed to him that most Chinese stay because they are complacent and don’t really care about the government in their day to day lives.

Why would this make them complacent? Who in the world thinks about the government every day other than students and people who have too much free time?

People understand there are trade-offs. It’s that simple.

@pat

He balked at this idea. He said, and I am paraphrasing that most people he knows hates the government, period. He continued to say that people can’t and won’t talk about it because they will be arrested.

This would be a load of rubbish lol. You think the police have so much time on their hands? I’ve cracked so many Mao Zedong jokes in China in public over the years, the CCP should have long sent me to the reeducation camp, in a single cell, and thrown away the key.

@pat

Then he dropped my favorite line of the night, “Communist is stupid!”

I agree. But China isn’t communist anymore. The CCP is an authoritarian government practicing something much closer to state capitalism. How does a communist country go through such rapid economic advancement? Do you think that’s possible?

@pat

We had a grand old time talking about all this stuff, we went on to talk about Hong Kong and Tienanmen Square and general Chinese oppression. He was very open about it and he’s very glad to be here and I let him know that I was glad he was here too.

Good for him.

@pat

Pretty similar to just about ever conversation I have ever had with a former Chinese citizen.

Conversations? Ok. I’ve had conversations with die hard patriots in China who have called me a “bastard” and “race traitor” because I’m of Chinese ethnicity but I’m not a citizen of China.

I’m also a “banana”, yellow on the outside and white on the inside, because I believe in liberalism and freedom of speech.

I’ve been told badmouthing the government is unpatriotic and detrimental to the common good.

I’ve also had conversations with US citizens and Brits working in China who think the current system is “socialist”, and it should be implemented in their respective countries.

@pat

These conversations inform me that most Chinese people do care about the oppression of the Chinese government, they are not complacent, they just cannot do anything about it.

What is “oppression”? Your definition of “oppression” isn’t the same as a Chinese person’s. Chinese people are taught to respect hierarchies through their upbringing. This isn’t limited to the Chinese in China.

They want reform within the existing government, not a change of leadership. Especially not when they’ve been taught how “great” the CCP is in school and how the Western countries have screwed them over time after time throughout modern history(lots of the latter are true, actually).

[pat]

@dt79

Come on man. Did you make this up? This isn’t how Chinese people speak. This sounds like some kind of sound bite from a clip taken from youtube.

That was a literal quote. His English wasn’t great, but way better than my Chinese.

@dt79

This would be a load of rubbish lol.

I forgot his name, but he was from Shanghai. It’s not just police, there are informants as well in his explanation. Not that they do not talk about government, but they are careful. That is his reporting not mine.

@dt79

I’ve cracked so many Mao Zedong jokes in China in public over the years, the CCP should have long sent me to the reeducation camp, in a single cell, and thrown away the key.

I am assuming your not shouting these in a loud speaker and probably American. And I am sure it’s harder to keep tabs on 1.2 billion people and I am sure there are regions so remote, they don’t know they have a government. But there are political dissident in prison and in prison camps, for speaking out. Churches that have been razed because they would not remove their crosses, Muslims in re-education camps, etc. I am sure you are aware China has an abysmal human rights record.

@dt79

I agree. But China isn’t communist anymore. The CCP is an authoritarian government practicing something much closer to state capitalism. How does a communist country go through such rapid economic advancement? Do you think that’s possible?

Sure they adopted a quasi-capitalist system which has allowed the the economy to thrive, though I hear it’s not doing hot right now. But socially, they are still what we would consider oppressive…

I am actually not sure what we are even arguing about? We seem to be in the same ballpark.
I don’t have a problem with the people or the place, I would even like to visit some time. But the Chinese government is oppressive.
I’ll rent me a Honkey and cruise the town in style.

[dt79]

@pat

That was a literal quote. His English wasn’t great, but way better than my Chinese.

This sounds hokey because it does not sound like the way a Chinese person would construct his sentances if his English sucks.

@pat

I forgot his name, but he was from Shanghai. It’s not just police, there are informants as well in his explanation. Not that they do not talk about government, but they are careful. That is his reporting not mine.

He’s probably just paranoid. Seriously, police and informants? How much money and manpower would be required for all this lol?

@pat

I am assuming your not shouting these in a loud speaker

Which ordinary citizen goes around shouting in a loudspeaker? This isn’t what we’ve been talking about. I’d probably piss enough people off that I’d end up running to the police when they arrive.

@pat

and probably American.

No, I am not from the US. People in China are normally only able to distinguish me from the average citizen because of my accent, and most of the time they think I’m Taiwanese.

@pat

But there are political dissident in prison and in prison camps, for speaking out. Churches that have been razed because they would not remove their crosses, Muslims in re-education camps, etc. I am sure you are aware China has an abysmal human rights record.

The CCP has spun Christianity as a Western thing which will erode Chinese culture, religion, tradition and values if not kept in check. The “errant” churches are branded as religious “extremists” who will corrupt and brainwash your children. The Muslims in reeducation camps have been branded as “terrorists” who pose a severe threat to the nation’s safety. These aren’t things the CCP does without considering public opinion.

@pat

Sure they adopted a quasi-capitalist system which has allowed the the economy to thrive, though I hear it’s not doing hot right now. But socially, they are still what we would consider oppressive…

I am actually not sure what we are even arguing about? We seem to be in the same ballpark.
I don’t have a problem with the people or the place, I would even like to visit some time. But the Chinese government is oppressive.
I’ll rent me a Honkey and cruise the town in style.

The question was whether the people of China consider the CCP oppressive, or at least, perceived they are oppressed to the extent that they would want a different regime.

[pat]

@dt79

The question was whether the people of China consider the CCP oppressive, or at least, perceived they are oppressed to the extent that they would want a different regime.

Hong Kong does, some Chinese do, I seriously doubt the Chinese government has ever considered public opinion ever, but that’s my opinion.
I wasn’t trying to mock the guy he said " I leave because of CCP" pretty sure I had that exact, but human memory is flawed, so it is possible I skipped a word. And we got along like gang-busters.
Nevertheless, I feel this topic is beaten to death, so I am going to leave it.

[dt79]

@pat

I wasn’t trying to mock the guy he said " I leave because of CCP" pretty sure I had that exact

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think you were mocking him at all.

[pat]

@dt79

Conversations? Ok. I’ve had conversations with die hard patriots in China who have called me a “bastard” and “race traitor” because I’m of Chinese ethnicity but I’m not a citizen of China.

Wait, that’s interesting. So because you chose to think differently, they berated and belittled you, assuming it’s true and you are not just saying it. I know there are some hard core factions in China, some who think Mao was to nice.

@dt79

I’m also a “banana”, yellow on the outside and white on the inside, because I believe in liberalism and freedom of speech.

I am pretty sure you’re mostly red on the inside assuming you have blood. But it sounds like you oppose the government of China as well.

@dt79

I’ve also had conversations with US citizens and Brits working in China who think the current system is “socialist”, and it should be implemented in their respective countries.

These lily white, self loathing socialists can just stay in China. I was happy when the Berlin wall fell, I just assume keep it down.

[pat]

Actually, I was really happy for him, because he was young, couldn’t be over 22 and he’s so appreciative of what he has here and seemed politically astute.

[dt79]

@pat

Wait, that’s interesting. So because you chose to think differently, they berated and belittled you, assuming it’s true and you are not just saying it. I know there are some hard core factions in China, some who think Mao was to nice.

No, they think that because I am Chinese by race, I should live in China. Think of them as the equivalent of racists and/or xenophobes today. It’s why I wouldn’t use them as a representation of the population as a whole even though I have encountered quite a few of them.

Regarding Mao, most people I know think he was nice. They don’t have the same history books there. This shouldn’t be surprising.

@pat

I am pretty sure you’re mostly red on the inside assuming you have blood. But it sounds like you oppose the government of China as well.

I don’t like the CCP nor anything related to Big Government.

[polo77j]

@dt79

Regarding Mao, most people I know think he was nice. They don’t have the same history books there. This shouldn’t be surprising.

Surely there must be some sort of oral history?

[dt79]

@polo77j

Surely there must be some sort of oral history?

The old people wouldn’t talk about it at the time. Lots of kids who were growing up in the era of communal dining halls actually remember those days fondly since they got to meet up and play with the other kids while being oblivious to everything else.

Plus, you need to take into account there were all sorts of social problems even after the Open Door Policy.

During the period when capitalism started being permitted, people lost their food stamps and there was a surge in street crime, scams, shady companies and all. Stock market scams where people preyed on old housewives, multilevel marketing companies etc. In the eighties, some people I know(old folk who seldom left their homes) would sew up their pockets when they left the house because they were sure they would get their wallets picked while using public transport. Until the late 2000s, I would only use an intermediary in Hong Kong for any form of payment to Chinese companies because there were so many that just folded up overnight and ran away after taking your money. Fuck, some of my Chinese friends did the same. In China. Some companies would show you samples of their goods and give you something of completely different quality once you make a bulk order.

Today, from personal experience having to do with a relative suffering from schizoprenia which cost me over 10k, you can get 5 fucking credit cards from different banks despite having no income and use them to gamble overnight at 24 hour online gaming shops. Till this day, my mother-in-law still drinks protein power bought from Amway every month.

Needless to say, the CCP has always blamed these on capitalism.

[zecarlo]

It’s hard to mock someone who doesn’t exist.

[pat]

@dt79

No, they think that because I am Chinese by race, I should live in China. Think of them as the equivalent of racists and/or xenophobes today. It’s why I wouldn’t use them as a representation of the population as a whole even though I have encountered quite a few of them.

I just know there are some extremist factions in China, how big or how many I don’t know, but it doesn’t surprise me.
What does surprise me is the CCP’s fear of religion. It’s growing in China against all odds. But the government keeps knocking over their churches. But these people are tenacious, they just rebuild and continue, bravo to them. The question is why? They should have learned from the USSR that state sponsored atheism doesn’t work and has dire consequences sometimes as you back them into corners where they have nothing to lose by fighting their way out.
I heard one Chinese Pastor, refusing to remove the cross from his church, being totally defiant. He said, he doesn’t care if he goes to prison he’ll preach there and make a bunch of converts. He had BALLS. He said this on television.

@dt79

Regarding Mao, most people I know think he was nice. They don’t have the same history books there. This shouldn’t be surprising.

Part of the sad history of China. That little red book was your ticket to violence and mayhem. It was targeted at the youth of the time, so they must be old now and remember the ‘good old days’ when they got to beat the shit out of people on the street and Mao would just politely clap.

[pat]

China is not unique to the abuses of capitalism, India has the same problem, it may be even worse, because there is no controls in place.
Don’t get me wrong, capitalism is the best of all possible models where the most people can make the most money, but without structure it’s potential for abuse is high.

[dt79]

@pat

What does surprise me is the CCP’s fear of religion. It’s growing in China against all odds. But the government keeps knocking over their churches. But these people are tenacious, they just rebuild and continue, bravo to them. The question is why? They should have learned from the USSR that state sponsored atheism doesn’t work and has dire consequences sometimes as you back them into corners where they have nothing to lose by fighting their way out.
I heard one Chinese Pastor, refusing to remove the cross from his church, being totally defiant. He said, he doesn’t care if he goes to prison he’ll preach there and make a bunch of converts. He had BALLS. He said this on television.

Lol what on earth are you talking about? There are like 10,000 churches in China. The CCP shut down 5.

[pat]

I don’t understand why you have to talk to me like that? I thought we were having a conversation? How the hell am I supposed to know how many churches there are in China? I did, ‘Google it’ nobody seems to know.
I go by what I am able to glean from the media. They don’t talk about how many churches their are, just how many have been razed.

[dt79]

I apologize. It’s just that I find all this media spinning getting too ridiculous. You can probably see why it’s so easy for the CCP to convince it’s citizens that the foreign media is spinning bullshit about them, which makes it easy to get it’s citizens to only listen to them and shift the blame for everything they do, like shutting down churches, to “insidious foreign forces trying to screw with China”.

We should probably end this here.