[quote]MrRezister wrote:
One question:
Did any of those 60-64 year olds get their masters after they were 34?[/quote]
I suspect that significantly more members of the current class of 30-34 year olds will get their masters between 35 and 59 than did the current 60-64 class. This is only my impression mind you, but I do think people are acquiring education later and later as skills need more frequent updating, careers change more often, and professional schools prefer experienced candidates in general-- though this last category would still mostly fall into the masters by 30 category.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Why would a teacher deserve to make that much money? A doctor actually has skills. Teachers babysit and read textbooks to the class. Homeschooled kids often do better than those subjected to teachers.[/quote]
A good teacher has skills too. I’m not sure where you went to school, but a good teacher does a lot more than read the textbook to the class. I’m not arguing that a lot of them are glorified babysitters with only a minimal understanding of the material, but if you pay a babysitters wage, why would you expect to get anything but babysitters?
If wages for teachers were higher, at least more bright people would be attracted to teaching. As a CS/EE student, I can make twice what teachers around here make… without even finishing my degree. I think I might enjoy teaching high school, I might even be good at it, but with that kind of economic disincentive, I’m not likely to ever try.
Would enough bright people sign up to balance out the morons? I don’t know, but as you say, the system is obviously broken, so doing nothing isn’t really an option.
That said, you get out what you put in. I got my education by psuedo-homeschooling myself (that is, I ignored my teachers and learned the material on my own). Not everyone is necessarily willing to put in the time to complete a classical HS education, nor do most people in college really belong there, so the system probably needs a lot more than a little extra money for teachers, but at least its a start.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
It would be a true paradise if we had poor kids working 60 hours a week for $ 2 an hour instead of learning how to read and write.[/quote]
Yes, and one day they might earn $3/hr and only have to work 2/3 as long to make the same amount – but only with some hard work. Where does one get the right to a certain wage?
Price and wage controls create unemployment for those that might be employed on the margin – people with no skill or experience. It is better that some be employed at low wages than have those same people lose their job because of wage hikes.
Besides, not everyone who starts out on a low wage remains making that same wage for very long. Competition ensures this.
[quote]tom8658 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Why would a teacher deserve to make that much money? A doctor actually has skills. Teachers babysit and read textbooks to the class. Homeschooled kids often do better than those subjected to teachers.
A good teacher has skills too. I’m not sure where you went to school, but a good teacher does a lot more than read the textbook to the class. I’m not arguing that a lot of them are glorified babysitters with only a minimal understanding of the material, but if you pay a babysitters wage, why would you expect to get anything but babysitters?..[/quote]
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Price and wage controls create unemployment for those that might be employed on the margin – people with no skill or experience. It is better that some be employed at low wages than have those same people lose their job because of wage hikes.
Besides, not everyone who starts out on a low wage remains making that same wage for very long. Competition ensures this.[/quote]
Is there not a base minimum to make a job worthwhile however?
I always liked this Henry Ford quote:[quote] “There is one rule for industrialists and that is: make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible”.[/quote]
Is that sentiment dead now, to be replaced with the more modern greed is good ideal?
[quote]Joe D. wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Price and wage controls create unemployment for those that might be employed on the margin – people with no skill or experience. It is better that some be employed at low wages than have those same people lose their job because of wage hikes.
Besides, not everyone who starts out on a low wage remains making that same wage for very long. Competition ensures this.
Is there not a base minimum to make a job worthwhile however?
I always liked this Henry Ford quote: “There is one rule for industrialists and that is: make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible”.
Is that sentiment dead now, to be replaced with the more modern greed is good ideal?[/quote]
Henry Ford recognized an opportunity and took it. He could have easily been forced out of the market with what he did but other workers saw this and decided they wanted the same benefits. Free market competition is the only way this comes about. If the government has set wage limits or price controls on this new technology it may have taken longer for the 40 hour work week to come about. It wasn’t mandated by any regulation but rather is the result of the labor market.
What Henry Ford is arguing for in the above quote is for free markets. The only way to drive prices down and wages up at the same time as improving the quality of goods and services is through competition.
Workers will not work if the wage is not high enough. Or rather, they may start out at a lower wage but will move to another job when it is available. People are constantly on the lookout for better opportunities as part of the human condition. Employers know this therefore they must hire at a competitive wage to keep their employers.
Employers are no more able to take advantage of the work force than they are of taking advantage of consumers. They are usually given advantages through regulation. Long established companies love minimum wage laws because it drives out new competition. Companies like IBM can afford to pay higher wages to their employers but startup companies may never even get started because they cannot afford to pay marginal labor a minimum wage nor can they afford to pay health care coverage…this stifles the market more than most people realize.
WASHINGTON (AP) – Seventeen of the nation’s 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50 percent, with the lowest graduation rates reported in Detroit, Michigan; Indianapolis, Indiana and Cleveland, Ohio, according to a report released Tuesday.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
What this tells me is that younger people have less inclination to acquire an education than did all of us old pharts. Why is that?
[/quote]
Education post WW II was confounded with some sort of vo-tech training and students were by and large allowed to avoid anything that might have made them better thinkers. More to the point, intellectualism (no better word for it, give me one if you have it) at its best is an attitude towards ideas and their right usage/evaluation. This is what is considered impractical today. You don’t really need general critical thinking skills to get along in life. All you need are some specialized ones for your area which earn your keep.
In the olden days, a good education could reliably lift you out of humble beginnings. Now, everybody has some sort of college degree or coursework. Its value has been inflated away I’m afraid…
Won’t make a difference. The other part of this is the attitude towards thinking. Clear, critical thinking is a skill every bit as much as the ability to play a sport or a musical instrument, and it is taught to a high level with pretty much the same rarity, but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who will jump up and down proclaiming their inability to think straight. (cf. I’m a Mathematician by vocation, and everybody starts out by telling how bad they are in Math.)
Parents usually are the single biggest influence on how kids approach thinking. If mom and dad don’t read and tend towards half-baked ideas and glib cynicism, how on earth will the kids ever get past it? Peer pressure is the other major factor in kids’ lives and that is anything but intellectually stimulating. Sorry, I just think this has hit a steady state and will stay that way.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I just think this has hit a steady state and will stay that way.
[/quote]
A steady state implies that contentedness with current circumstances is constant. This may be the present state (as you see it) but to assume it will be a constant state ignores human nature – not to mention it uses the fallacy of collective thought.
Life is just way too dynamic that wee need worry about this. People, according to their nature, are constantly on the lookout to better their lives and this requires the ability to adjust to a changing world. There is no getting around the use of the intellect.
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
We also need to rewrite child labor laws to allow teens the opportunity to work.
You don’t ALLOW your teens to work!?!?
Twelve used to be old enough to fight “Zee Germans”.
ElbowStrike[/quote]
Plenty of teens work and make good grades too. I employ several teenagers in part time positions and they do a great job. I ask about grades prior to employment and make sure they know that if the grades drop…the job may be gone too. I give bonuses for straight “A” report cards.
Some are in H.S. and a few in College…great kids.
Most of them are making their own car payments and in most cases help pay for tuition when necessary.
Now, having said all that, if you ask most of them who the Secretary of Defense is, or for that matter who the Vice President of the United States is, hold on to your hat. Forget asking about Presidential candidates.
[quote]Go-Rilla wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
We also need to rewrite child labor laws to allow teens the opportunity to work.
You don’t ALLOW your teens to work!?!?
Twelve used to be old enough to fight “Zee Germans”.
ElbowStrike
Plenty of teens work and make good grades too. I employ several teenagers in part time positions and they do a great job. I ask about grades prior to employment and make sure they know that if the grades drop…the job may be gone too. I give bonuses for straight “A” report cards.
Some are in H.S. and a few in College…great kids.
Most of them are making their own car payments and in most cases help pay for tuition when necessary.
Now, having said all that, if you ask most of them who the Secretary of Defense is, or for that matter who the Vice President of the United States is, hold on to your hat. Forget asking about Presidential candidates.
[/quote]
Try asking them who Cincinnatus was…really good for the quizzical look.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
jj-dude wrote:
I just think this has hit a steady state and will stay that way.
A steady state implies that contentedness with current circumstances.
[/quote]
I don’t agree. Steady state means that various forces cancel each other out enough that the situation doesn’t change. Nobody may like it and indeed it may be a great topic of conversation. People have been griping about the “crisis in education” since the 1920’s.
I’m also a bit more pessimistic in my view of this topic than you might think. Newer technologies require more specific expertise and therefore have the paradoxical effect of increasing ignorance. Do you really know what’s inside your computer or microwave? Since we as a society also have very good organizational skills, nobody really ever needs to more than a tiny piece of anything. Large complex projects get done as much in spite of as because of the people involved. As I say, this is the reality at this time and to rise above this level takes no small measure of effort for uncertain return.
[quote]This may be the present state (as you see it) but to assume it will be a constant state ignores human nature – not to mention it uses the fallacy of collective thought.
Life is just way too dynamic that wee need worry about this. People, according to their nature, are constantly on the lookout to better their lives and this requires the ability to adjust to a changing world. There is no getting around the use of the intellect.[/quote]
Really? People are not rational as much as rationalizing animals. Once a modicum of ability is reached people tend to stop unless there is something driving improvement. Being poorly educated and botching the job will probably become the standard – maybe it already is for public discourse. Look at a lot of the numskulls who post on various fora. Personally I made it a very high priority to be as well-rounded as possible, since I believe that thinking is both craft and calling. I think you probably do as well (judging from your other posts, which I have enjoyed). So what I’m saying is that only for a small percentage of the population will shake off their slothful ways and really learn. The rest will watch Loveboat reruns sipping Margaritas.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Go-Rilla wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
We also need to rewrite child labor laws to allow teens the opportunity to work.
You don’t ALLOW your teens to work!?!?
Twelve used to be old enough to fight “Zee Germans”.
ElbowStrike
Plenty of teens work and make good grades too. I employ several teenagers in part time positions and they do a great job. I ask about grades prior to employment and make sure they know that if the grades drop…the job may be gone too. I give bonuses for straight “A” report cards.
Some are in H.S. and a few in College…great kids.
Most of them are making their own car payments and in most cases help pay for tuition when necessary.
Now, having said all that, if you ask most of them who the Secretary of Defense is, or for that matter who the Vice President of the United States is, hold on to your hat. Forget asking about Presidential candidates.
Try asking them who Cincinnatus was…really good for the quizzical look.
[/quote]
I’ll put that on the pre-employment exam. I’ll bet none of them know he was in Cream with Eric Clapton.
[quote]Go-Rilla wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Go-Rilla wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
We also need to rewrite child labor laws to allow teens the opportunity to work.
You don’t ALLOW your teens to work!?!?
Twelve used to be old enough to fight “Zee Germans”.
ElbowStrike
Plenty of teens work and make good grades too. I employ several teenagers in part time positions and they do a great job. I ask about grades prior to employment and make sure they know that if the grades drop…the job may be gone too. I give bonuses for straight “A” report cards.
Some are in H.S. and a few in College…great kids.
Most of them are making their own car payments and in most cases help pay for tuition when necessary.
Now, having said all that, if you ask most of them who the Secretary of Defense is, or for that matter who the Vice President of the United States is, hold on to your hat. Forget asking about Presidential candidates.
Try asking them who Cincinnatus was…really good for the quizzical look.
I’ll put that on the pre-employment exam. I’ll bet none of them know he was in Cream with Eric Clapton.
[/quote]
This is the question that trips up most of the part timers.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Go-Rilla wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
We also need to rewrite child labor laws to allow teens the opportunity to work.
You don’t ALLOW your teens to work!?!?
Twelve used to be old enough to fight “Zee Germans”.
ElbowStrike
Plenty of teens work and make good grades too. I employ several teenagers in part time positions and they do a great job. I ask about grades prior to employment and make sure they know that if the grades drop…the job may be gone too. I give bonuses for straight “A” report cards.
Some are in H.S. and a few in College…great kids.
Most of them are making their own car payments and in most cases help pay for tuition when necessary.
Now, having said all that, if you ask most of them who the Secretary of Defense is, or for that matter who the Vice President of the United States is, hold on to your hat. Forget asking about Presidential candidates.
Try asking them who Cincinnatus was…really good for the quizzical look.
