[quote]AdamC wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
AdamC wrote:
This is getting boring.
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
what a stupid statement.
did you start this thread to have Americans apologize?
What wrong is anyone supposed to admit to?
Blimey.
I was referring to the fact that everyone is just going round in circles and insulting each other.
Take it easy. you know, like us superior Europeans xxxx (tongue in cheek)
[/quote]
my bad
and my apologies
[quote]lixy wrote:
The point I’m trying to make is that the US is a bully on the international scene. The US thinks the whole freakin’ world is within its sphere of influence. This has lead to unspeakable violence committed in the name of your country.
[/quote]
The U.S. does influence the world, who’s fault is that?
and that is the reason we are talked about. EVERYONE looks to the U.S.
We are an idol with clay feet. But who put us on that pedestal?
When I mentioned racial tensions in France you quickly said to look at my own country. True, but that doesn’t negate the fact that France has a racial problem but you didn’t agree to that point.
you’ve got a damn big American monkey on your back. I kind of like that we get you in such a twist. I hope we ride you straight into a psycho break down because that looks like where you are heading. I love the idea that your last gasping crying words aren’t going to be of love for your family or any of the good you’ve done but your hatred of the U.S. HAHA your last and only thoughts will probably be of my country.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
The U.S. does influence the world, who’s fault is that? [/quote]
Influence? The US bombs and invades countries. I don’t think influence is an accurate term.
Every country on the face of the globe has a racial problem. My mother is French so I know what France is all about. I wouldn’t put the country high up in the list. They probably don’t even make it in the top 50.
If you can elaborate on your point, maybe we can have a constructive debate then.
I don’t hate any country. I oppose certain policies. There’s a world of difference between the two.
But you’re right. the idea that no lessons are drawn from the Iraq war by Americans can indeed haunt me. I did my part by shouting in the streets with millions others in early 2003 to oppose the war, so I don’t think my last thoughts will be of your country.
[quote]lixy wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Thanks for narrowing that down to the last couple of decades. It does take Vietman out of the equation though, do want to extend it a little further to validate whatever point it is you were trying to make?
The point I’m trying to make is that the US is a bully on the international scene. The US thinks the whole freakin’ world is within its sphere of influence. This has lead to unspeakable violence committed in the name of your country.
As opposed to the way more unspeakable violence by muslim terrorists or insurgents or whackjobs?
If we limit it to Iraq. You are right. You got me there. Not many Iraqis are doing any blowing up. It seems to be mostly foreigners.
Are you sure about that? Doesn’t Al-Mahdi’s army have Iraqis in it? Heck, does it have foreigners at all? How about the Ba’athists? Are they not Iraqis. By most accounts, Al-Qaeda represents around 10% of what you like to group under the “insurgency” banner.
Are members or Al-Mahdi’s group blowing themselves up and/or killing civilians? Prove your 10% figure. I call bullshit on that.
I guess I’ll have to expand my remarks to the middle east.
And that’s exactly the thing you shouldn’t do. Amalgamating the Israel-Palestine issue with anything else is a classic case of logical fallacy.
Not once did I mention that. That is your agenda trap bullshit. Although I think it can be included. “Classic case of logical fallacy?” Again I’d appreciate if you would stick to the point.
Again, what the hell is your point?
Nothing as far as I know. But my remarks were made regarding muslim terrorists.
You did bring up 9/11 when I said that there were no suicide bombers in Iraq prior to your invasion. Must be subliminal propaganda that got to you…
Okay and I clarified, so now what?
Just because you don’t know anyone doesn’t make it so. I think that the families of the bombers are reimbursed or were at one point. Gosh your wrong a lot.
Explain to me how you can “reimburse” a mother who lost a son.
Well the government or organization, PLO, Hamas…etc… gives cash to the family of the suicide bomber.
The terrorists who blew up your towers are NOT supported by the Iraqis. They were directly financed by the Saudis, and 15 out of the 19 hijackers were Saudis themselves.
Yes, I’ve heard this talking point many times. So what?
Show me one person who finances the mo-fo’s blowing up cars in markets in Baghdad, and I’ll personally break his/her nose.
What is the point of this sentence?
The US army and its murderous war is financed and supported by the American populace.
Last I looked support for the war was not that strong by the American populace. The government maybe.
Can I hold you responsible for the Mahmudiya massacre? You bet! Can you hold me responsible for any of the actions of Al-Qaeda? No! That they happen to be using a Holy Book I hold dear to spread their terror and hatred is not my fault, now is it?
That sounds about par for your course. I’m not trying to hold you responsible for anything other than you seem to be in denial about the fact that the side that you support has killed more civilians than the side you hate.
Huh? Please don’t try and define things for me. As shown before, you are wrong. Maybe this will help. For the most part it is people who are not Iraqi citizens that are doing the opposing, especially the violent kind. I notice in the news that 2 Iraqi civilians were wrongly killed. The US is taking steps and working with the families and such to try and make amends. (To the extent possible.) Does this happen when Achmed blows up an innocent? I think not. Its the insurgents to whom everyone is fair game. That wasn’t even a good try dude.
Alright, I won’t define things for you. I’ll let you define them yourself. Answer this then: Do you consider anyone shooting at US soldiers in Iraq an insurgent or not? Who do you consider to be insurgents?
Not necessarily. An insurgent, to me, is someone from out of country fighting against US forces. I suppose it could include Iraqi’s, but there we would have to draw some sort of idealogical motivation for further classification.
We’ll take it from there.
Thanks for clearin that up. I think it would be a lot better if it were free from the damned insurgents.
Again with the “insurgents” wildcard? You obviously try to obfuscate thing by amalgamating the legitimate Iraqi resistance which doesn’t want a foreign military power on its oil and the whackjob terrorists.
Who and where is this legitimate Iraqi resistance? Are they blowing themselves up? Killing civilians? If they are I feel comfortable lumping them together for purposes of accusing of you of refusing to see that the side you support kills more civilians than the US.
I doubt it. I don’t think you have the balls.
Try me.
Send pictures. Are you hot?
It does if you go to another country and do it. We all know what an insurgent is as opposed to a citizen of that country. Do you?
Strawman. Like I said, if you come to my town I’ll blow your head up.
Blow my head up? That’ll leave a mark!
When will this strawman thing go away? Its seems to be the new internet way to dismiss an argument when you’ve lost as far as I can tell.
I guess my point still stands. Its okay to have your opinion, but you do seem more than a little hell bent on bringing up every little thing wrong with the US, but all the killing is justified from the other side and that is just not as simple as one side being right and the other wrong. Of course there are others on here just as one sided as you for the US also and that is not right either.
The US has a lot of blood of its hands. Its foreign policy is the most interventionist and bullying on the face of the planet. That is what I am denouncing.
Muslims have a lot of blood on their hands too. Their policies are bullying and violent and chickenshit and kill more civilians than the US. That is what I am denouncing.
I don’t think it’s inherent to the system. It’s a fuckin’ hijack of a few extremely influential lobbies that is shaping US foreign policy. It can change and am sure it will eventually. It will not take other terrorist attacks for you to realize that. It will take lending an ear to the rest of the world and realizing that your government is not currently acting in your best interests.
I agree with this paragraph. I’m not arguing that.
Violence can only be justified in some extreme cases and the burden of proof is always on the aggressor. So far, I haven’t heard a single reason that’s good enough to justify the destruction of Iraq.
Again thats not what I’m talking about.
It’s not about who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s about you failing to listen to the world community and prove that you were right in invading Iraq.[/quote]
Maybe, but not this post and what I’m talking about.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Influence? The US bombs and invades countries. I don’t think influence is an accurate term.[/quote]
and you are a deliberate fool if you think that is the only influence the U.S. has over the world. Doesn’t France even have the word “Cocacolanization” regarding the influence of American products, culture, etc…? Countries BUY our culture and CRAVE our influence.
[quote]Every country on the face of the globe has a racial problem. My mother is French so I know what France is all about. I wouldn’t put the country high up in the list. They probably don’t even make it in the top 50.
If you can elaborate on your point, maybe we can have a constructive debate then.[/quote]
What is there to elaborate on? As a jew who’s grandmother fled France, I would rate France much higher on your list, but see that is always going to be a subjective list. I was quite clear but as always you are the deliberate fool.
delusional
I bet it will and the thought of that really makes me laugh.
[quote]lixy wrote:
The US has a lot of blood of its hands. Its foreign policy is the most interventionist and bullying on the face of the planet. That is what I am denouncing.
I don’t think it’s inherent to the system. It’s a fuckin’ hijack of a few extremely influential lobbies that is shaping US foreign policy. It can change and am sure it will eventually. It will not take other terrorist attacks for you to realize that. It will take lending an ear to the rest of the world and realizing that your government is not currently acting in your best interests.
Violence can only be justified in some extreme cases and the burden of proof is always on the aggressor. So far, I haven’t heard a single reason that’s good enough to justify the destruction of Iraq.
It’s not about who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s about you failing to listen to the world community and prove that you were right in invading Iraq.[/quote]
Paragraph 1: Goes to show how little you know about the world. It’s what exposure to left wing KGB propaganda will do to you.
Paragraph 2: You will probably still hate the US if we stay the way we are or if we change. There will always be something about us you despise.
Paragraph 3: You’re right, we should have left Saddam in charge. What a great guy.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Simon Forsyth wrote:
Lixy I have already proved that you don’t know what your on about and why is it that you have to bag out another country?
You have proved (sic) that? That’s rich. You just need to use “therefore” more often to sound just like JeffR.
What has America personally done to you for you to hate it?
I don’t hate America. I’m very critical of its foreign policy. Here’s why:
What gives you the right to challenge the decisions of America…
That’s an inalienable right.
Could you honestly handle the job of being President of America?
Don’t you need to be born in the US to become president?
Do you know much about your country?
Sure. Better than you.
Why do you hate the corporations?
Do I? That is certainly news to me.
I think you hate yourself and your country so much.
I hate many things. Myself and my country (or any other country for that matter) are not one of them.
I hate violence. I hate racism. I hate all form of slavery. I hate ignorance. I hate the series “Family Guy”.[/quote]
Like I care if you like Family Guy or not, that doesn’t prove a thing. When I asked if you could handle being the President I wasn’t asking about who can be President (someone correct me if I am wrong but you do need to be an American to be president right… Otherwise the Terminator would be running for office). I was asking if you could handle the job… I personally think I would make so many bad mistakes and I don’t think I would be able to handle it… but at least my speeches would be good.
You talk about th oppressive regime you lived under that was supported by America and since you hate Israel I would say that you think your a Palestinian… I have meet heaps of Palestinians and they hate Israel with a vengeance, mainly because Israel treats them in a fashion similar to apartheid south africa.
In what way does America having bases in many countries change your quality of life? You say your from Sweden so please tell me how bases in the UK, Italy Afghanistan and other countries is actually effecting your quality of life to such a point you decide to constantly complain any chance you get.
"The reason I said you hate the corporations is because you have complained about them previously, besides the major corporations are American and they are the ones that really start wars (according to you - so is it you hate the president of America or you hate the corporations, make up your mind).
Besides those pissy central and south American countries what country has America “over thrown”… and even if they are legitimate why does that concern you? You live in Sweden (apparently) so why worry about what happened 50 years ago (give or take) in some central/south American country… How does this affect your quality of life?
Now grow up and leave the big boys to tall.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Kerry and his wife are parasites, living off the fortune created by another man.
Kerry was also pretty hated by our Swift Boat veterans here, one of whom I know, a retired Master Chief. I asked him how Kerry got all those medals in 4 months. His response began with “That sonofabitch…” and went downhill from there.
[/quote]
Funny thing is I know a guy who saw him on TV during the last presidential campaign, the moment he saw him he said “fucking hell I am going to kill that guy”… Then he went really weird a few days later I asked him what was wrong with the guy and he said “I will kill him one day… He isn’t to be trusted”. the guy I am talking about claimed to have been liaising with American service personnel for the Australian forces.
Anyway I don’t like the guy based on what he said. Australia has always put its hand up when America needs someone. We aren’t the biggest or best equipped but we are damn good soldiers. We are always standing by America come hell or high water… Like I said read a book called ‘18 Hours’ its a really good book.
[quote]lixy wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Who’s dropping bombs on innocent peoples heads? This is like your mantra or something.
Of all countries, the US is the only to have been dropped bombs on people’s heads all over the globe. If anything, that should be the US army’s mantra.
If you are referring to the US, I’d like you to give some equal time to the ragheads blowing themselves up on street corners every 5 minutes.
By all means. But here’s the thing: Did anyone blow themselves up [u]before[/u] you got to Iraq?
Curbing terrorism is police work.
Hold your own damn people accountable for a change.
My damn people? Who’s that exactly?
When I hear US soldiers getting shot at, I can’t help but think I would have done the same if they (or any other foreign power) were patrolling my soil. You would do just the same.
Failing that I suggest if you feel that strongly about it, then get off your dead ass and go to Iraq or Afghanistan and get in the shit. Get some boy!
Iraqis are defending their country against a foreign occupier. Americans are building bases all across the region.
Which side should I fight on? The aggressor or the victim? If the latter, what chance do I stand with my pocketknife against the most powerful army the world has ever seen? And in the name of what should I fight? I’m not Iraqi. Heck, even Iraqis are fleeing the land that used to be theirs. [/quote]
And this is where you fucked up Lixy. Fist of all you were saying you lived under an oppressive regime that was supported by the US. Now when you say “my damn people, who is that exactly?” you are hiding behind any type of concealment. You are a fuck head in every way shape and form.
You see you get off on the idea that people don’t know what type of background you have, the reason they don’t know is because your not proud, your not proud of yourself or your people.
Everyone else here is proud to say who they are and where they are from. Your not because your pathetic
Fuck off and leave us alone.
Gotta love Lixy’s trolling. You guys post serious rebuttals to his “arguments” and he, in return, cherry picks 5 words out of them and then calls you a strawman.
And, sadly, some of you are effectively baited by it.
Keep it up Lixy, I haven’t seen such a half-way decent troll since my usenet days in the 90’s.
Allahu akbar, old son.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
What OG is saying is that, of all the superior countries youlist in front of the US - all of them have rescinded the right to vote, or withheld their citizenship to certain groups. Tell me how that is conducive to democracy. The US is bound by the constitution to extend rights guaranteed therein to all citizens. We have never taken a guaranteed right away like your examples. [/quote]
Of course you did.
1777 Women lose the right to vote in New York.
1780 Women lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.
1784 Women lose the right to vote in New Hampshire.
1787 US Constitutional Convention places voting qualifications in the hands of the states. Women in all states except New Jersey lose the right to vote.
1807 Women lose the right to vote in New Jersey, the last state to revoke the right.
Then Black people could not vote in some places until the 60s and state authorities took part in that. Arguably that also means taking a guaranteed right.
[quote]hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
AdamC wrote:
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
Certainly not the ones who invaded Iraq.
Or the one’s that think blowing themselves and other innocent people up is a ticket to heaven.
[/quote]
Well, they have an excellent excuse though, having blown up themselves and all…
[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
We do not do the same. I rant a little when I feel overhwelmed by the worlds stupidity.
No, you go on and on and on and on. Day after day. Month after month. Do you not? And not about “the world” (and certainly not about your own country’s shortcomings) but about the US.
In the end, all of your razzle-dazzle intellectual gymnastics are about satisfying some deep inadequacy somewhere or an inability to deal with some aspect of your life. Nothing else would explain such extreme behavior.
Let us try the alternative explanation that I work on my computer all day.
Be that as it may, maybe I am a deeply disturbed individual, maybe I hate America and all of this becuase my mommy did not love me enough.
That is as relevant as the question if Galileo Galilei was a betwetter, the earth still revolves around the sun, not the other way around.
Plus, if you compare what you wrote about Europe and what I wrote about America you are probably not in the position to analyze me or to diagnose me.
Ah, but many posters here “work on their computers all day,” yet none of them can match the shear volume that you produce. A volume devoted almost exclusively to criticizing one country: the USA. This is just not normal.
And this is where you are wrong about your being disturbed, your hatred for America and your lack of maternal love not being relevant. These are the kinds of things that cause your view of the world to be so skewed and distorted; to lack any sense of perspective. You can only see what is necessary to see in order to soothe your anger, to fill your void, or to compensate for your inadequacy.
Day in and day out, every day of every month of every year, there are terrible, unjust things happening all over the world that have absolutely nothing to do with the US. But Orion doesn’t rail against these things. Orion doesn’t take a balanced approach to the world’s problems. Orion can only see through the tunnel vision that his inadequacy, fear, anger, or sense of void has saddled him with.
Orion is literally compelled to criticize the US incessantly. It is the salve that allows him to live with his psychic wound, the opiate that enables him to feel ok about himself. He will never stop; to do so would mean having to face the internal demon whom he keeps quite by feeding here everyday.
Orion and his pathology NEED to bash the US.[/quote]
Damn, let us all be glad Orion does not work in a post office…
[quote]btm62 wrote:
As opposed to the way more unspeakable violence by muslim terrorists or insurgents or whackjobs? [/quote]
I don’t support the terrorists.
You support the US army.
Can’t you see the huge flaw in your argument?
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2007/0710.tilghman.html
The State Department estimates Al Qaeda in Iraq at from 850 �?? about 3 to 5 percent of the Sunni insurgency �?? to a few thousand.
What does a people resisting the only way they can in the face of the Zionist occupier have to do with a bunch of whackjobs determined to spread terror around the world?
Terrorists are one thing. Palestinian resistance inside the occupied territories is another.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the US hand out cash to the family of a fallen soldier. Now, what’s the difference between somebody destroying civilian buildings with an F-16 and the Palestinian suicide bombers?
On a side note, you may wanna look up the verb “to reimburse”.
So what?
Saddam was a secular mo-fo who hung Islamists by their balls. The Al-Sauds are fundamentalist and absolutist nut-jobs with known ties to terrorist organizations.
If you can’t see the problem with turning Iraq into a safe haven for terrorists, there’s no helping you.
To show you that I’m in no way responsible for any innocent deaths. Your tax-money and neo-con-cheerleading on the other hand…
The US army and its murderous war is financed and supported by the American populace.
Not anymore. Back in 2003, the majority of Americans supported the obliterating and invasion of Iraq thanks to a carefully crafted propaganda. Remember Cheney linking Saddam to 9/11? Remember the WMDs?
I don’t support any faction that harms innocents. However, I am sick and tired of shedding tears for the Americans who get blown up in Iraq. It’s not their land. They have no business dictating the rules there. And don’t get me started on the mercenaries…
That didn’t make the least bit of sense, now did it. Are the insurgents “from out of country” or do they “include Iraqi’s” (sic)? If the latter, then we’re back to my previous definition: Anyone shooting at US forces is an insurgent. And to think that the people of an occupied country don’t have the right to resist is simply preposterous.
Let’s please differentiate between people blowing themselves up with the intent of killing civilians and the ones doing the same to take out US forces.
Now that it’s done, I’ll totally agree with you. Anyone harming civilians should be taken out. And let me remind you that the US army has done more than its fair share at killing and maiming civilians, sometimes on purpose.
Nice retort.
I meant try bombing the town I reside in and see the size of my balls for yourself.
Sheesh! You’re being silly.
And I’m right behind you. (no pun intended)
Praise the lord!
I must say that I have no idea where you stood on the 2003 invasion. Did you support Bush’s decision to blow up Iraq?
[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
What OG is saying is that, of all the superior countries youlist in front of the US - all of them have rescinded the right to vote, or withheld their citizenship to certain groups. Tell me how that is conducive to democracy. The US is bound by the constitution to extend rights guaranteed therein to all citizens. We have never taken a guaranteed right away like your examples.
Of course you did.
1777 Women lose the right to vote in New York.
1780 Women lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.
1784 Women lose the right to vote in New Hampshire.
1787 US Constitutional Convention places voting qualifications in the hands of the states. Women in all states except New Jersey lose the right to vote.
1807 Women lose the right to vote in New Jersey, the last state to revoke the right.
Then Black people could not vote in some places until the 60s and state authorities took part in that. Arguably that also means taking a guaranteed right.
[/quote]
You are a fool. Read what I wrote. With the exception of New Jersey in 1807 you are using examples of colonies. I specifically said that the US has never taken a right away that was provided for in the constitution.
Black suffrage was guaranteed by the constitution with the 14th and 15th amendments. That right has never been taken away. There were many different ways to prevent blacks from voting, particularly in the South but that is not the same as your glorious superior democracies flat removing rights from their people.
Maybe you can go back to the Puritans, or even Red Ericson to prove how evil the US is. That makes about as much sense as using the colonies’ policies before the constitution was even written, or ratified.
Try harder, moron.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
and you are a deliberate fool if you think that is the only influence the U.S. has over the world. Doesn’t France even have the word “Cocacolanization” regarding the influence of American products, culture, etc…? Countries BUY our culture and CRAVE our influence. [/quote]
I sure would be a deliberate fool to think that. But you have to admit that you used the term “influence” to downplay the military interventionism of the United States, not to state the obvious.
Seeing that the French elected a guy with a Hungarian dad and a mother of Jewish descent, I’ll say that you may wanna reconsider your list.
You claimed France had a racial problem, Sweden had an immigration problem, and Spain had a religious one. I thought it would be fair to discuss whatever misconceptions/legitimate concerns you may have.
So just because somebody opposes the cannabis ban in Sweden or the weapons they sell around the world, makes them a Sweden-hater?
Must be your time of the…year, OctoberGirl.
[quote]lixy wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Is it too much to ask for anyone to grasp the concept that they’re both wrong?
Hedo loves him some strawmen.[/quote]
Strawman? It’s a statement of the obvious. Precisely the type of statements you routinely deny.
Why do you support terrorism Lixy?