[quote]JeffR wrote:
Huh?
Are you implying that your fellow teeth gnashers would be a match for a Red Blooded American male?
If so, allow me to laugh out loud.
[/quote]
Oh God no, not a red blooded American male!
The sheer horror!
No, I am talking about you.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
So back to where you called me a liar.
I´d like you to show me one of my lies please.
So - every person that has died since Gulf War I, OFF, 17 UN resolutions, and Gulf II that has not been directly attributed to terrorist murders is on the head of the US?
If you can’t see the lie - there is no helping you.
[/quote]
I see the giant strawman.
When did I write this? Should be in the archives.
Show me.
[quote]orion wrote:
Oldest continuous Parliament is the Tynwald on the Isle of Man, which started 979.
[/quote]
oh right cuz all those peasants, slaves, serfs and common people got to take part in the government. Get real. That and those were no governments of the people, by the people, for the people.
So yes, I am correct.
Orion, I can tell you just hate to accept the truth on that fact that in your eyes we are the incredible devil but it is the truth. Your covering your ears and singing La-La-La will not change that.
Some folks bash America because we are the yardstick that is used to measure the power, prestige, the totality of other nations. Of course other folks dislike that. That and the fact that everyone waits to see what America will do. Well then step up folks and take some responsibility and stop waiting around to follow our lead.
And of course this is a thread full of bashing because that is the topic. A good topic. Let’s us all talk about the why to hopefully understand.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
Oldest continuous Parliament is the Tynwald on the Isle of Man, which started 979.
oh right cuz all those peasants, slaves, serfs and common people got to take part in the government. Get real. That and those were no governments of the people, by the people, for the people.
So yes, I am correct.
[/quote]
No you`re not.
Universal male suffrage, either Island or the Isle of man.
Universal suffrage, surprise, Corsica 1755. You were also beat by NZ which is still an independant nation.
Black people were not allowed to vote until the end of the Civil war and in many places they could not vote until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Woman were allowed to vote until 1920.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
We are? Can you give examples? No other countries have ever dropped bombs? must be your first day on the planet. [/quote]
I badly expressed myself. Others have dropped bombs, but I dare you to name one that’s bombed more countries than you did in the last couple of decades.
[quote]If you are referring to the US, I’d like you to give some equal time to the ragheads blowing themselves up on street corners every 5 minutes.
By all means. But here’s the thing: Did anyone blow themselves up [u]before[/u] you got to Iraq?
Why yes, I believe they did. 9/11 ring a bell? I’m sure you could look into the history if Israel. Or you could look at today when one blew himself up in India. Good post so far Lixy! [/quote]
When you said “every 5 minutes”, I figured you were referring to Iraq. They do have attacks almost on a daily basis. But there were none before you got there.
And what the hell do the Iraqis have to do with 9/11?
I don’t know anyone giving money to terrorists. I don’t know anyone voting for them. Heck, if I meet one, I’ll drag his/her ass to a police station presto.
You folks don’t seem to get that, do you?
And that semantics tricks is supposed to make everything alright? If you saw a foreign army patrolling the streets, you bet your ass that you’ll get a rifle and start taking them down.
By your definition, anyone opposing your presence there is not a civilian but an insurgent, and is therefore “fair game”. That’s sickening.
What do Iraqis want? I’ll tell you: A free country.
Suicide is a no-no for me - unless I’m dead certain (no pun intended) that it will save loads of lives. I’m not in the business of killing people.
Now, if my town was to be bombed and invaded by some foreign power, I will start shooting at them, blasting their equipment, and do everything to get them out. I don’t think that’ll make me an insurgent though.
[quote]orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
Oldest continuous Parliament is the Tynwald on the Isle of Man, which started 979.
oh right cuz all those peasants, slaves, serfs and common people got to take part in the government. Get real. That and those were no governments of the people, by the people, for the people.
So yes, I am correct.
No you`re not.
Universal male suffrage, either Island or the Isle of man.
Universal suffrage, surprise, Corsica 1755. You were also beat by NZ which is still an independant nation.
Black people were not allowed to vote until the end of the Civil war and in many places they could not vote until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Woman were allowed to vote 1920.
[/quote]
Of course male, in New Zealand women weren’t given the right to retain their nationality until 1934 and weren’t eligible for government positions until 1920. And then there are the Maori.
You misunderstand the Civil Rights Act and Jim Crowe laws. African-American’s could vote, some people just made it hard to impossible for them to vote.
Corsica’s women’s vote was rescinded in 1769
I guess we could just keep going back and forth though.
Although when you go to your internet and type oldest-continuous-democracy I am sure yours, like mine, also lists the US. But I see you ignore that.
And then we can start to talk about the types of Democracy such as direct and parliamentary.
It is pointless to discuss with you because your mind only works out, nothing in, not even for consideration. And you probably think you are open minded and that you are reading these posts and considering them, but you aren’t. You are too close minded and judgemental for that. HEY why don’t you start doing one of your freaky off tangent posts because that is what you do when you can’t make a point.
It is okay Orion. I get yah. Just keep putting up that finger (whichever one you choose) to blot out the sun.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
Oldest continuous Parliament is the Tynwald on the Isle of Man, which started 979.
oh right cuz all those peasants, slaves, serfs and common people got to take part in the government. Get real. That and those were no governments of the people, by the people, for the people.
not vote until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Woman were allowed to vote 1920.
Of course male, in New Zealand women weren’t given the right to retain their nationality until 1934 and weren’t eligible for government positions until 1920. And then there are the Maori.
You misunderstand the Civil Rights Act and Jim Crowe laws. African-American’s could vote, some people just made it hard to impossible for them to vote.
Corsica’s women’s vote was rescinded in 1769
I guess we could just keep going back and forth though.
Although when you go to your internet and type oldest-continuous-democracy I am sure yours, like mine, also lists the US. But I see you ignore that.
And then we can start to talk about the types of Democracy such as direct and parliamentary.
It is pointless to discuss with you because your mind only works out, nothing in, not even for consideration. And you probably think you are open minded and that you are reading these posts and considering them, but you aren’t. You are too close minded and judgemental for that. HEY why don’t you start doing one of your freaky off tangent posts because that is what you do when you can’t make a point.
It is okay Orion. I get yah. Just keep putting up that finger (whichever one you choose) to blot out the sun.
[/quote]
So you´ve seen the WWI fighter pilot movies too?
As I said, if you narrow your definitions enough, eventually the US will be number one.
So the US is the oldest continous democracy if you don`t count women or black people and if you think that the actual possibility does not matter half as much as the theoretical right to vote.
If you put it like that, I kind of agree with you.
But why go through all the trouble?
Just ask “what is the oldest continuous Democracy between Canada and Mexico.”
This is getting boring.
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
[quote]AdamC wrote:
This is getting boring.
No one is going to admit they are wrong.[/quote]
I admitt to be wrong all the time.
When I think that I am wrong.
[quote]lixy wrote:
btm62 wrote:
We are? Can you give examples? No other countries have ever dropped bombs? must be your first day on the planet.
I badly expressed myself. Others have dropped bombs, but I dare you to name one that’s bombed more countries than you did in the last couple of decades.
Thanks for narrowing that down to the last couple of decades. It does take Vietman out of the equation though, do want to extend it a little further to validate whatever point it is you were trying to make?
If you are referring to the US, I’d like you to give some equal time to the ragheads blowing themselves up on street corners every 5 minutes.
By all means. But here’s the thing: Did anyone blow themselves up [u]before[/u] you got to Iraq?
Why yes, I believe they did. 9/11 ring a bell? I’m sure you could look into the history if Israel. Or you could look at today when one blew himself up in India. Good post so far Lixy!
When you said “every 5 minutes”, I figured you were referring to Iraq. They do have attacks almost on a daily basis. But there were none before you got there.
If we limit it to Iraq. You are right. You got me there. Not many Iraqis are doing any blowing up. It seems to be mostly foreigners. I guess I’ll have to expand my remarks to the middle east. Again, what the hell is your point?
And what the hell do the Iraqis have to do with 9/11?
Nothing as far as I know. But my remarks were made regarding muslim terrorists.
Muslims Terrorists. They’ve killed far more civilians than the US army.
I don’t know anyone giving money to terrorists. I don’t know anyone voting for them. Heck, if I meet one, I’ll drag his/her ass to a police station presto.
You folks don’t seem to get that, do you?
Just because you don’t know anyone doesn’t make it so. I think that the families of the bombers are reimbursed or were at one point. Gosh your wrong a lot.
Its not the civilians doing the shooting for the most part. Its the insurgents. Not a relevant statement at all.
And that semantics tricks is supposed to make everything alright? If you saw a foreign army patrolling the streets, you bet your ass that you’ll get a rifle and start taking them down.
By your definition, anyone opposing your presence there is not a civilian but an insurgent, and is therefore “fair game”. That’s sickening.
Huh? Please don’t try and define things for me. As shown before, you are wrong. Maybe this will help. For the most part it is people who are not Iraqi citizens that are doing the opposing, especially the violent kind. I notice in the news that 2 Iraqi civilians were wrongly killed. The US is taking steps and working with the families and such to try and make amends. (To the extent possible.) Does this happen when Achmed blows up an innocent? I think not. Its the insurgents to whom everyone is fair game. That wasn’t even a good try dude.
No, insurgents and the corruption and greed of the Iraqis in power are keeping the Iraqis from what they want.
What do Iraqis want? I’ll tell you: A free country.
Thanks for clearin that up. I think it would be a lot better if it were free from the damned insurgents.
I guess from your posts you would go as an insurgent. Blow yourself up. Take a bunch of school children with you and people out buying food for their families or young men waiting in line for jobs.
Suicide is a no-no for me - unless I’m dead certain (no pun intended) that it will save loads of lives. I’m not in the business of killing people.
Now, if my town was to be bombed and invaded by some foreign power, I will start shooting at them, blasting their equipment, and do everything to get them out. I don’t think that’ll make me an insurgent though.[/quote]
I doubt it. I don’t think you have the balls.
It does if you go to another country and do it. We all know what an insurgent is as opposed to a citizen of that country. Do you?
I guess my point still stands. Its okay to have your opinion, but you do seem more than a little hell bent on bringing up every little thing wrong with the US, but all the killing is justified from the other side and that is just not as simple as one side being right and the other wrong. Of course there are others on here just as one sided as you for the US also and that is not right either.
[quote]AdamC wrote:
This is getting boring.
No one is going to admit they are wrong.[/quote]
what a stupid statement.
did you start this thread to have Americans apologize?
What wrong is anyone supposed to admit to?
[quote]btm62 wrote:
I doubt it. I don’t think you have the balls. [/quote]
She doesn’t. She runs to Europe when it gets even a little scary.
[quote]orion wrote:
As I said, if you narrow your definitions enough, eventually the US will be number one.
So the US is the oldest continous democracy if you don`t count women or black people and if you think that the actual possibility does not matter half as much as the theoretical right to vote.
If you put it like that, I kind of agree with you.
But why go through all the trouble?
Just ask “what is the oldest continuous Democracy between Canada and Mexico.”
[/quote]
That’s sorta like you and your hatred of th US, or the Iraqi death count.
If you stand just right, tilt your head at the proper angle, and hold your tongue just so - the US is indeed the Great Satan, and we have killed a million innocent people in the last 4 years.
What?..We can’t play the game by your rules?
Pathetic.
What OG is saying is that, of all the superior countries youlist in front of the US - all of them have rescinded the right to vote, or withheld their citizenship to certain groups. Tell me how that is conducive to democracy. The US is bound by the constitution to extend rights guaranteed therein to all citizens. We have never taken a guaranteed right away like your examples.
[quote]AdamC wrote:
No one is going to admit they are wrong.[/quote]
Certainly not the ones who invaded Iraq.
[quote]lixy wrote:
AdamC wrote:
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
Certainly not the ones who invaded Iraq.[/quote]
Or the one’s that think blowing themselves and other innocent people up is a ticket to heaven.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
Thanks for narrowing that down to the last couple of decades. It does take Vietman out of the equation though, do want to extend it a little further to validate whatever point it is you were trying to make? [/quote]
The point I’m trying to make is that the US is a bully on the international scene. The US thinks the whole freakin’ world is within its sphere of influence. This has lead to unspeakable violence committed in the name of your country.
Are you sure about that? Doesn’t Al-Mahdi’s army have Iraqis in it? Heck, does it have foreigners at all? How about the Ba’athists? Are they not Iraqis. By most accounts, Al-Qaeda represents around 10% of what you like to group under the “insurgency” banner.
And that’s exactly the thing you shouldn’t do. Amalgamating the Israel-Palestine issue with anything else is a classic case of logical fallacy.
Again, what the hell is your point? [/quote]
You did bring up 9/11 when I said that there were no suicide bombers in Iraq prior to your invasion. Must be subliminal propaganda that got to you…
Explain to me how you can “reimburse” a mother who lost a son.
The terrorists who blew up your towers are NOT supported by the Iraqis. They were directly financed by the Saudis, and 15 out of the 19 hijackers were Saudis themselves.
Show me one person who finances the mo-fo’s blowing up cars in markets in Baghdad, and I’ll personally break his/her nose.
The US army and its murderous war is financed and supported by the American populace.
Can I hold you responsible for the Mahmudiya massacre? You bet! Can you hold me responsible for any of the actions of Al-Qaeda? No! That they happen to be using a Holy Book I hold dear to spread their terror and hatred is not my fault, now is it?
Alright, I won’t define things for you. I’ll let you define them yourself. Answer this then: Do you consider anyone shooting at US soldiers in Iraq an insurgent or not? Who do you consider to be insurgents?
We’ll take it from there.
Again with the “insurgents” wildcard? You obviously try to obfuscate thing by amalgamating the legitimate Iraqi resistance which doesn’t want a foreign military power on its oil and the whackjob terrorists.
Try me.
Strawman. Like I said, if you come to my town I’ll blow your head up.
The US has a lot of blood of its hands. Its foreign policy is the most interventionist and bullying on the face of the planet. That is what I am denouncing.
I don’t think it’s inherent to the system. It’s a fuckin’ hijack of a few extremely influential lobbies that is shaping US foreign policy. It can change and am sure it will eventually. It will not take other terrorist attacks for you to realize that. It will take lending an ear to the rest of the world and realizing that your government is not currently acting in your best interests.
Violence can only be justified in some extreme cases and the burden of proof is always on the aggressor. So far, I haven’t heard a single reason that’s good enough to justify the destruction of Iraq.
It’s not about who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s about you failing to listen to the world community and prove that you were right in invading Iraq.
[quote]hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
AdamC wrote:
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
Certainly not the ones who invaded Iraq.
Or the one’s that think blowing themselves and other innocent people up is a ticket to heaven.
[/quote]
Is it too much to ask for anyone to grasp the concept that they’re both wrong?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Is it too much to ask for anyone to grasp the concept that they’re both wrong?[/quote]
Hedo loves him some strawmen.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
AdamC wrote:
This is getting boring.
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
what a stupid statement.
did you start this thread to have Americans apologize?
What wrong is anyone supposed to admit to?
[/quote]
Blimey.
I was referring to the fact that everyone is just going round in circles and insulting each other.
Take it easy. you know, like us superior Europeans xxxx (tongue in cheek)
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
AdamC wrote:
No one is going to admit they are wrong.
Certainly not the ones who invaded Iraq.
Or the one’s that think blowing themselves and other innocent people up is a ticket to heaven.
Is it too much to ask for anyone to grasp the concept that they’re both wrong?[/quote]
Too many egos, too much pride, too many insults.