really enjoying training with the guys. still getting to know everyone but there seem to be a few regulars who train when i do. one guy is in the junior all blacks another plays basketball (i really can’t bitch about how long my arms and legs are because his are freaky long and damn he needs to drive those jerks uber-high). another who is focused on oly lifting. get quite a few more through on saturdays. probably around 10 guys. a couple who mostly oly lift but most of them supplementing for sport (some of them only working powercleans). maybe a few who can’t train with us during the week because of work.
i think they think i’m a bit odd in being the only girl… but they seem basically accepting. i think more of them might be sticking around to do their squats instead of running away about then. think they might be scared i’ll squat more than them if they don’t work them hard haha. think the coach is happy about that. i’m not quite sure how things will go when i get stronger to be lifting more than some of the athletes who are more focused on their sport… attitudes might change then… though i guess i’ll have earned the respect from those who matter when i get to that point. they will know how hard i’ve worked for it.
guess the coach sets the tone and he seems stoked that there is another lifter who is into it who is prioritizing weightlifting. he seems happy that i’m getting stronger, too. and happy that i’m obviously prepared to work my squats hard. it really is super motivating training with others
Heya Lex!! Loving the training girlie! You.are.killing it!
I’m SO SO happy you’re finding a gym that works with you and supports your training. Thats your second home! Its gotta feel like it one. Plus you have a coach now!! So awesome! I think they really make a world of difference, and the fact that he’s happy with your progress is wonderful. YAY!!!
Also, congrats on the PRs! 50kg on the powerclean is BIG. Great work.
And lucky you, you get to play with straps! So much fun. I’d love to see some of these clean pulls, and maybe some snatch pulls when/if you get to them. I thought that these always ended with a shrug…
And DO NOT diminish the difficult of an ATG back squat! Breaking parallel at any weight is always harder if you ask me. Or at least I struggle with it!! So yeah…
Ok, so now, down to business. I just got my mind blown by the fact that my push press form could be totally incorrect, and I can’t seem to figure out the right way to do them! I looked online and I’ve seen a bunch of different forms that range from the way I was taught and then the way Rippentoe teaches them (which is the way Shackle does them).
I was taught that the PP is basically like a clean grip press with a dip (leg drive). But then I saw this article about how the “Olympic Press” (i guess that’s the push press?) is really like an overhead press with elbows DOWN and a dip. So I guess my questions are:
Is the Push Press and the Olympic Press the same thing?
What the FUCK is the proper Push Press form?
I’m honestly not sure why I care so much considering the push press is kind of a whatever lift, but I MUST get to the bottom of this!
Of course I checked out my sexy boys at catalyst and I can’t tell for the life of me what kind of grip he’s using…must be those giant muscles getting in the way. sigh…
there was a lot of discussion a while back over on the oly forum about whether your elbows were meant to be up (like in racking the clean) or more vertical for the start of the jerk.
i think koing said it didn’t matter… but then something about him working on having them more vertical actually…
to the best of my knowledge all that really matters is that you dip short for max power and then you drive the bar straight up (which involves shoving your head back so you don’t take off your face and then shoving your head through). if you don’t drive the bar straight up (you drive it forwards) then you get stuck chasing it (bad) or probably missing.
aside from that i think it comes down to personal preference - but i’m not sure. will be interested to know what others think.
i’ll try and get some vids next week… i’d be interested to see what my 65kg clean pulls look like… everett reckons that the weight simply will swing back from the floor once the weight gets heavy (heavier than you) and i want to see…
[quote]alexus wrote:
everett reckons that the weight simply will swing back from the floor once the weight gets heavy (heavier than you) and i want to see…
[/quote]
HA! That’s awesome! I want to see that too!
And thank you!! I was really dreading having to change my form since I had just gotten used to it. ugh! I figure I’ll stick with what works until I have no choice but to tweak my form.
one thing i’m learning from my coach is to quit fussing! i used to not like straps because i couldn’t get them all perfect. and i used to fuss about quite a lot more generally. he doesn’t seem at all concerned about almost everything i fuss over. he focuses on things i’ve never really thought of. but not much of that. mostly he just seems keen for me to simply do the reps with more weight so i build up my work capacity and more particularly my confidence.
keep doing the jerks the way you do them. i’m sure your coach will tell you to try different if he thinks trying different might get you a better result. it can be really hard to know how much things ‘should’ be done a certain way vs how much idiosyncracy in style is tolerated. my coach doesn’t seem to mind my squatting down properly before initiating lifts - but i’ve seen him tell other people off when they try it. not quite sure why… maybe because it seems to help me but tends to mess them up??
I am of the understanding and I perform the push press with the elbows down and you crack the hips back for the drive. I don’t think the dip is deep enough to warrant bringing the elbows up into the front squat / cleaned position. Not sure how much drive you could get from the shoulders with th elbows up either.
I am of the understanding and I perform the push press with the elbows down and you crack the hips back for the drive. I don’t think the dip is deep enough to warrant bringing the elbows up into the front squat / cleaned position. Not sure how much drive you could get from the shoulders with th elbows up either.
spook[/quote]
Hm…interesting. last night I did a couple of sets using each form and I can see where they differ. For me, elbows down felt “easier” but it made me lean backwards more than I think I should, whereas with the elbows up its harder, I stay much more upright, but like you say spook, not as much drive in the shoulders.
I personally feel more explosive in the elbows up position, but I think only because I’ve conditioned myself in this form. I also used the same dip as I normally do when I tried elbows down, so maybe if I think about it as a “hip crack” it’ll be different.
I don’t know. I’m clearly also being incredibly stubborn and having a hard time doing away with ineffectual training due to pride. shrug But like you say Lex, when I start Oly up again I’ll have my form properly critiqued.
I found for me that if I don’t think about cracking hips back I will end up cracking my knees forward. This does keep me more comfortably upright but it does give me sore knees if I push press near max weight for too long a period. Now will have to try elbows up Maschy style.
masch - maybe take some side on vids of the different approaches and have a look at the bar path. i just say that because i think it feels to me that i’m almost falling over backwards before i dip-drive when i generate the most vertical bar path (as part of getting my head back out the way, perhaps). i find it harder with my elbows down, i think, because i need them up to make my delts protrude so the bar has a shelf to sit on. not up as much as for the rack - but certainly more up than vertical. I think i lose a lot of force from the leg drive if it is being held in my hands rather than resting on my delts. but i don’t know…
Maschy, my coach had me do presses with elbows starting not as high, but that was basically just to build some strength in my upper body. I wasn’t allowed to use any momentum from lower body, except to lean back slightly squeezing my buttocks as the bar reached my nose, just so I wouldn’t hit my head. Which I seem to be doing a lot of lately, when lifting or not.
i’m such a gym whore… i found a gym where i can join and fill out an ‘i quit’ form within two weeks and pay NOTHING. i even got a free bag and water bottle for joining.
push-press
20kg 1x3
25kg 1x3
30kg 1x3
35kg 1x3
40kg single, single single.
snatch
(really bad idea. no chalk)
20kg few singles
25kg few singles
30kg single
35kg miss. grip slipped. miss. grip slipped. single. lucky me.
back squat
20kg 1x5
25kg 1x5
30kg 1x5
35kg 1x3
40kg 1x3
45kg 1x3
50kg 1x3 - got squashed last rep. wtf??? i did three sets at this weight two days ago. but… coach was right behind me yelling DRIVE FROM THE BOTTOM!!! for every single rep. perhaps i shouldn’t underestimate the power of that. think he had me do less warm-up too
1x5 with 20kg.
TRAINING
not feeling it today. really sore upper back from chin-ups yesterday (since I haven’t worked these in a while).
guess my body is starting to adapt to 3x a week training.
also i haven’t been very good with properly training assistance exercises and so now when i do train them they make me sore and stiff
i got through everything today (snatch, clean, jerk, back squat) but feeling kinda sad and fatigued. not that time of month or anything… did my squats up to 3x3@45kg. didn’t want to risk failing 50kg again and having my confidence take a hit. finished with 10x1 chins (jumping and doing them from a dead hang) because they are important to me dammit.
THE PLAN
gym 3x a week. do what my coach says. re: assistance…
do it last.
pick one or at most two from the following list of exercises I care about:
a) chin-ups (10x1 then will work towards doubles)
b) GHR (nearly tore my hamstrings off the other day when they cramped up. this really does need regular practice)
c) trap bar deadlift.
d) bench / push-up
e) weighted planks.
no rows. but then again no strict pressing either.
meh.
feeling awful. still… can’t be on fire everyday, I suppose
May I suggest less reps in the ramping to your squat. When I warm up for my squat its usually 2 sets of 10 with the bar, and then 2 sets of 7 reps at 50%, and then a pre-working set of 5 reps at about 75%-80%.
I get plenty of days when I don’t feel it. I guess that’s called being old.
Lots of volume, though, so I’m not surprised you’re tired. And yay on your 50kg squats. I remember when you struggled with 40kg. It wasn’t long ago at all.
Aw Lexy-woo, hope your next workout is better. I felt angry after mine today for some reason.
Quick question, to kinda frog knees out or not?, seeing as though we are the same height? I did it when doing my home set up, but have stopped since I have a coach now. The only thing is he is very short & my sometimes partner is short too, so maybe they don’t quite understand?? I felt like I had a bit more power, like I could bring in my leg power a bit better with slightly frogging them out. Anyway just putting it out there my cerebral lifter.
cal - i’ve moved from front squats to high bar back squats - that is why my squat has gone up!! high bar back squats are a new movement for me so i’m still making neurological gains on them, i think. still getting my head around being much stronger on them.
minimal - i think it depends… it is more about relative leg length than height… part of it comes down to different styles…
Everett advocates a ‘hips down’ start position that should be maintained through to the second pull as much as possible. he conceeds that longer legged lifters will inevitably have their hips shoot up briefly before their shoulders before things get righted for the second pull but that is because they have non-ideal levers and the tendancy for the hips to shoot up first should be minimized as much as possible.
since the hips are down and one is aiming to get the bar to swing back from the midfoot start position towards the torso to the hips during the first pull the knees need to go somewhere… one fix is to externally rotate the femur and shove the knees out to the sides to give the bar a clear path to swing back towards the torso. i think the idea is to externally rotate the femur and frog the legs out to the sides as much as is needed to give the bar a clear path (to not have it bump out away from the body when it moves off the floor. shoving the knees out to the sides also enables one to pull the hips forwards closer to the bar in the start position which should in theory minimize the amount it needs to swing back and might possible help minimize the swing forward at the second pull.
i personally find that my femurs don’t much like to be externally rotated. i get some wrenching feeling in them when i try and pull with frogged legs. i’m not entirely sure whether it is muscular or whether it is that my ball and socket joint isn’t shaped for the movement to be natural. i think it might be some of the latter…
i’d kinda like to fuss over this…
but right now i’m just kinda doing what i’m told. which involves doing things at heavier weights (even though i personally think my form is breaking down somewhat).
i think that maybe my fussing has been holding back my strength development… probably a balance is best. i’ll definately do things my coaches way for a while… try not to fuss over things he isn’t fussing over… see how that works out…
another plays basketball (i really can’t bitch about how long my arms and legs are because his are freaky long and damn he needs to drive those jerks uber-high). another who is focused on oly lifting. get quite a few more through on saturdays. probably around 10 guys. a couple who mostly oly lift but most of them supplementing for sport (some of them only working powercleans). maybe a few who can’t train with us during the week because of work.