Affirmative Action

Just wondering what everybody’s opinion is.
Hopefully there can be an intelligent debate on this. I have always strongly disagreed with it and I’m continually baffled on how it can be justified.

The reason I bring this up is that yesterday my law class had a presentation from a RCMP officer. She mentioned in passing while talking about recruiting that if you were a white male you would have a hard time getting accepted. So then I ask her directly that if in a hypothetical situation me(white/male) and lets say a Chinese female had the exact same credentials(test scores,background check,fitness ect…) who would get in. Obviously she said the minority would and that even if I surpassed her in areas she could still potentially get the job over me.

Another area I find disturbing is the differences in physical requirements. Females standards are much lower than the male standards. I have absolutely no problem with women being cops as long as everyone is judged in the same manner. They are both doing the exact same job!! How come a women only has to do 6 chins whereas a guy has to do 12?

I agree with you 100% No offense to women but i dont think they should be cops who are out patrol…this may sound bad but hear me out. Paper work and all that other is just fine, but when it comes to running down a suspect, having to tackle him, wrestle around with him ect. there is just no way 99% of females could do that as effective as many males could. Im not saying ALL females, just the extreme vast majority.

The standards should also be set to the same level. A female should have to do just as many pull-up as a male, if not more because most females are on avg. much lighter than males. Having lower standards for women is like saying a hypothetical suspect is going to run slower just because a female is chasing him, or the suspect is going to wrestle around with her as hard as simply cuz shes a female. If your a suspect hiding crack cocaine in ur pocket and ur trying to get ur @ss out of there it doesnt matter if ur a male or female. The female is going to get her butt beat by the desperate suspect 99/10 times.

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
Just wondering what everybody’s opinion is.
Hopefully there can be an intelligent debate on this. I have always strongly disagreed with it and I’m continually baffled on how it can be justified.

The reason I bring this up is that yesterday my law class had a presentation from a RCMP officer. She mentioned in passing while talking about recruiting that if you were a white male you would have a hard time getting accepted. So then I ask her directly that if in a hypothetical situation me(white/male) and lets say a Chinese female had the exact same credentials(test scores,background check,fitness ect…) who would get in. Obviously she said the minority would and that even if I surpassed her in areas she could still potentially get the job over me.

Another area I find disturbing is the differences in physical requirements. Females standards are much lower than the male standards. I have absolutely no problem with women being cops as long as everyone is judged in the same manner. They are both doing the exact same job!! How come a women only has to do 6 chins whereas a guy has to do 12?
[/quote]

I think that affirmative action is racist on 2 parts:

1)It gives priority to someone based on their race and

2)It tells minorities that they are inferior since they need a racist policy to help them advance

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
tmay11 wrote:
Just wondering what everybody’s opinion is.
Hopefully there can be an intelligent debate on this. I have always strongly disagreed with it and I’m continually baffled on how it can be justified.

The reason I bring this up is that yesterday my law class had a presentation from a RCMP officer. She mentioned in passing while talking about recruiting that if you were a white male you would have a hard time getting accepted. So then I ask her directly that if in a hypothetical situation me(white/male) and lets say a Chinese female had the exact same credentials(test scores,background check,fitness ect…) who would get in. Obviously she said the minority would and that even if I surpassed her in areas she could still potentially get the job over me.

Another area I find disturbing is the differences in physical requirements. Females standards are much lower than the male standards. I have absolutely no problem with women being cops as long as everyone is judged in the same manner. They are both doing the exact same job!! How come a women only has to do 6 chins whereas a guy has to do 12?

I think that affirmative action is racist on 2 parts:

1)It gives priority to someone based on their race and

2)It tells minorities that they are inferior since they need a racist policy to help them advance

mike[/quote]

Completely correct mike, how the hell is something that gives privelege based on race not racist in itself? As for your second statement, Martin Luther King Jr. and a large amount of blacks hated the idea of Affirmitive Action for that reason, that it made them seem too inferior to do what whites were capable of, and that they needed some method of assistance.

They want a completely non-discriminatory method of admission to schools and employment, how about not showing the name, race, religion, sex, etc, and only qualifications, then if they are deemed accepted or what not, their information can be shown. Obviously a face to face interview wouldn’t be able to implement these methods, but it’s a start for college at least.

You guys DO realize that the OP was getting information from a Royal Canadian Mounted Police Officer, right?

I have NO way of knowing what the situation is in Canada; but if you guys are still feeling this way in the U.S., you must have been hiding under a rock for the past 10 years.

INSTITUTIONALLY, AA as been fought, challenged, and often rescinded and done away with within almost every segment of our society.

“Preferences” always HAVE been, and most likely will be, a part of admissions and employment; whether it be a “preference” for the Alumnus kid, a relative or the kid of a large contributor. And yes, there are people and companies who feel like having a diversity of students and/or employees is actually a good thing.(Go figure…!)

However, AA as a general institutional policy is dead. “Angry White Guys” who don’t get a job or don’t get into Med School need to quit blaming it on black people.

Mufasa

One other thing:

We should want a female Police Officer or Marine or Soldier who is strong, in shape, and is as prepared to “watch your back” as a male counterpart.

No question.

This is done by :

  1. Interviews, psychological exams, training evaluations, etc.

  2. Evaluating COMPARABLE, not “equal” physical requirements. (Men to men/women to women).

Mufasa

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
So then I ask her directly that if in a hypothetical situation me(white/male) and lets say a Chinese female had the exact same credentials(test scores,background check,fitness ect…) who would get in. Obviously she said the minority would and that even if I surpassed her in areas she could still potentially get the job over me. [/quote]

I think to better understand AA one needs to look at the corporate world. A handful of companies maintain a quasi-monopoly because of the economy of scale and the edge they got by jumping on the wagon early on.

Two centuries ago, the white guy’s ancestor had probably a house, a land and all sort of properties while the black guy’s didn’t even own himself. You can’t pretend that they are given the same chances to start with. Blacks are 10% of US population and yet, in jails they’re many folds more than the whites.

That being said, I believe AA to be a form of racism and do not support it.

Anyone who’ve seen how erratic the behavior of a menopausal woman can be would have difficulties entrusting her with his life. The physiological changes when pregnant or when aunt Irma visits can also reinforce that impression.

Now, men’s actions are often dictated by their penile members which can lead to all kind of trouble and abuses. So there’s no difference is that men are more consistent in their pussy-driven craze while women can have chronically unstable periods.

As an engineer, I believe in using the right tool for the job. Women are physically different from men. Generally, they tend to be weaker because of Androgens and all, but have sharper senses, naturally developed communication skills, less greed and more importantly, bigger hearts (figuratively speaking).

For all those reasons, it would be wrong to expect that a girl do as many chin-ups as a guy. Women are better cut for jobs that men perform clumsily in. My opinion is that if a woman insists on becoming a cop but can’t do the 12 push-ups, it’s only fair to cut some 10 to 20% of her salary to account for the difference in output.

“A girl can always fuck her way out of trouble” – Anonymous

lixy:

You ARE “a paradox” my friend…

I REALLY can’t tell sometimes when your rantings are serious or sarcastic!

(That makes Life fun, though, huh?)

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
However, AA as a general institutional policy is dead. “Angry White Guys” who don’t get a job or don’t get into Med School need to quit blaming it on black people.
[/quote]
Yeah, tell that to Alan Bakke.

Bakke:

A 1978 Supreme Court decision that SUPPORTS what I’ve written!

(I wrote a paper on it, by the way).

It was one case (among many) that was the “beginning of the end” for AA.

It’s now 2007…

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Bakke:

A 1978 Supreme Court decision that SUPPORTS what I’ve written!

(I wrote a paper on it, by the way).

It was one case (among many) that was the “beginning of the end” for AA.

It’s now 2007…

Mufasa[/quote]

I was agreeing with you Mufasa, I know what the case involved.

Sorry, MA!

You know the problem with getting intent across with just text!

My apologies!

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Bakke:

A 1978 Supreme Court decision that SUPPORTS what I’ve written!

(I wrote a paper on it, by the way).

It was one case (among many) that was the “beginning of the end” for AA.

It’s now 2007…

Mufasa[/quote]

Any chance you would be willing to post the paper? I would be interested in reading it. I am not one of those “angry white males” in my protest of AA, I merely find the idea disgusting. I am not sure how prevalent it is in society. My train of thought is pretty much along the lines of if the threat of AA is there (and I guess even if it is not) then you better damn well make certain you are BETTER qualified than everyone else.

mike

AA may not be officially used anymore, however, I do know of some state run programs that openly encourage minorities to apply(of course this is a good thing). A friend of mine(who is black) has gone through one of these programs and has made it very clear to his peers that being a minority did make it easier for him to complete the course, and he wasn’t happy about that. I wouldn’t be either.

Putting “Bakke” in a search yields 4.5 million hits.

There’s not much that I can add with posting a Grad School paper that hasn’t already been archived on the Internet…

Mufasa

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
tmay11 wrote:
Just wondering what everybody’s opinion is.
Hopefully there can be an intelligent debate on this. I have always strongly disagreed with it and I’m continually baffled on how it can be justified.

The reason I bring this up is that yesterday my law class had a presentation from a RCMP officer. She mentioned in passing while talking about recruiting that if you were a white male you would have a hard time getting accepted. So then I ask her directly that if in a hypothetical situation me(white/male) and lets say a Chinese female had the exact same credentials(test scores,background check,fitness ect…) who would get in. Obviously she said the minority would and that even if I surpassed her in areas she could still potentially get the job over me.

Another area I find disturbing is the differences in physical requirements. Females standards are much lower than the male standards. I have absolutely no problem with women being cops as long as everyone is judged in the same manner. They are both doing the exact same job!! How come a women only has to do 6 chins whereas a guy has to do 12?

I think that affirmative action is racist on 2 parts:

1)It gives priority to someone based on their race and

2)It tells minorities that they are inferior since they need a racist policy to help them advance

mike[/quote]

Mikeyali I agree with what you said 100%

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Bakke:

A 1978 Supreme Court decision that SUPPORTS what I’ve written!

(I wrote a paper on it, by the way).

It was one case (among many) that was the “beginning of the end” for AA.

It’s now 2007…

Mufasa[/quote]

I don’t think it’s quite as settled as it’s made out to be. Particularly if the rationale is the Bakke case.

To paraphrase Monty Python, it’s not dead yet.

Look at the reaction in Michigan to the recent passage of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, particularly from the University of Michigan. See here: Michigan Civil Rights Initiative - Wikipedia

The cities and state institutions are scrambling to try to find ways to get around the new law.

One could also look at the proxy preference categories that have been put in place, or are experimented with, in CA to see how city and state governments are attempting to subvert bans on AA.

Private schools can, and do, engage in racial affirmative action – as do private companies. And pressure from outside groups on private companies to engage in more affirmative action in hiring is growing stronger, not weaker - at least from where I sit.

Law firms fall all over themselves to try to recruit “diversity.” And I can guarantee you that there are candidates who are considered and to whom offers are made who come from law schools, or from percentiles within law schools, which would disqualify them did they not have some specific diversity trait that the firms were trying to recruit.

Which isn’t to say such a person couldn’t be a great lawyer – but is to say that candidate is benefiting from “diversity,” – which, when you’re dealing with a zero-sum game of a certain number of openings, is also to say that someone else is being discriminated against for lacking “diversity.”

Whether one thinks these things are good or bad is another matter. But the matter is very much open.

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
Another area I find disturbing is the differences in physical requirements. Females standards are much lower than the male standards. I have absolutely no problem with women being cops as long as everyone is judged in the same manner. They are both doing the exact same job!! How come a women only has to do 6 chins whereas a guy has to do 12?
[/quote]

Consider this the tyranny of correcting past indiscretions.

If physical standards actually meant anything we wouldn’t see fat cops, ever. The likelihood of a law enforcement officers having to take down a hostile suspect singularly–using their own strength and endurance–is improbable. Would you rather have an in-shape female who is only capable of 6 pull-ups or some fat-ass who never works out but is male and has more absolute strength?

What do pull-ups have to do with anything other than a standard measurement for some ambiguous performance evaluation? The amount of pull-ups performed doesn’t mean anything in relation to ability in other non-related areas. In my best physical shape when I was in the USMC I could whip out 15 pull-ups but couldn’t run 3 miles in under 24 minutes? What kind of marine did this make me?

I say make the aptitude tests more rigorous but then males would probably bomb in comparison to their female counterparts. We all have different talents and it is a matter of identifying the talents that lend to the credibility of our chosen profession not trying to mold individuals into our perceived idea of what makes that profession.

Nathaniel Abraham was convicted of murder in 1998 and incarcerated, but only until he turned 21, which was in January, at which time he was moved into a rent-free apartment in Bay City, Mich., and enrolled tuition-free in Delta College, in a program sponsored by Michigan Rehabilitation Services. Though some criticized such lavish treatment of a murderer, Abraham seemed ready to start his new life, arriving in Oakland Circuit Court for his formal release wearing “a black fur coat, ivory fedora hat, and a ivory and hot-pink pinstriped suit with matching pink tie and shoes,” according to a Detroit News reporter. [Detroit News, 1-19-07]

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:

I think that affirmative action is racist on 2 parts:

1)It gives priority to someone based on their race and

2)It tells minorities that they are inferior since they need a racist policy to help them advance

mike[/quote]

That makes perfect sense. You can place those two things along with having an entire month dedicated to black history. When do we dedicate a month to Japanese, Irish, Polish. Italian…ah never mind. Just more bullshit from our bullshit government intimidated by special interest groups screaming for special rights while at the same time screaming for equality.

Crazy.