Affirmative Action

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
hspder wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
QUESTION: What objective standard in society should allow or should have allowed us, a nation, to know when Affirmative action is/was no longer needed?

That’s indeed a very good question…

I’ll say that until having AA makes no difference in the racial split of students made to college, it should be there.

So, to explain it another way, if with AA 10% of entrants are black, until 10% of entrants would also be black without AA, it should be there.

So you want to have a quota that stays in place until the underlying education-system problems mentioned above are fixed?[/quote]

Personally I think that a four or five year test is a good idea which I hadn’t thought of before, but I don’t think the TEST should be based of quotas, rather I think that it should look at a random sample of applicants to various positions (say 1-2%) and evaluate whether equally qualified candidates achieved equal positions regardless of race. Quotas were and may be necessary under the legal concept of an AFFIRMATIVE respose (that it is logistically impossible to guarantee a level playing field due to the large scope of the problem) but in an ideal world we can do away with AFFIRMATIVE law and utilize preventative law only (ie civil rights cases). We don’t expect the NBA to be 70% white etc. and we shouldn’t expect a certain percentage (more OR less than the set quotas) for minorities.

I am a student at Washington University in St. Louis. I am a white male. When applying here, I wrote an essay for a scholarship to the school of engineering. The question was along the lines of, “Write about a recent engineering project that you have done or that you would like to do in the future.” I myself had never done an engineering project and never had the opportunity to perform any engineering in high school as I am sure many others hadn’t either. It was a difficult essay to write for me. I happened to scan down to the other scholarships and read the two minority scholarships essay questions. One was “If one of your teachers from high school was asked about you, what do you think she would say?” Another was “What is your favorite book and why?” These aren’t exact quotes of the questions but very similar to what I remember. Is that fair as I think it is obvious that the non-minority question is much more difficult than the minority questions? I am personally against affirmative action as I think that it isn’t so much to do with race. I believe all races have equal opportunities to get into colleges in america but certain races’ cultures aren’t exactly a great helping hand to getting an education. I am from Louisiana and we consistently have one of the worst education systems in the US. If we have affirmative action? Why shouldn’t I also be given preference over a student from the Northeast with better schools and better opportunities for education? Should my test scores be “curved” upwards because I didn’t have equal opportunity to have a good education? I personally don’t think so. Affirmative action is racism and if we should have any form at all it should be more based upon where you live and opportunities such as quality of schooling and such available there. I say we get rid of it all.

[quote]bkerne wrote:
I am a student at Washington University in St. Louis. I am a white male. When applying here, I wrote an essay for a scholarship to the school of engineering. The question was along the lines of, “Write about a recent engineering project that you have done or that you would like to do in the future.” I myself had never done an engineering project and never had the opportunity to perform any engineering in high school [/quote]

You were trying to go to school for engineering but couldn’t write an essay about an engineering project you would like to design in the future? Look, I have no sympathy for your rant because that is like some kid complaining that the essay for medical school asks why would you like to be a doctor and what do you plan to accomplish. Do you think the kid trying to go to medical school should be accepted if they have absolutely no concept of what they are about to get into? Here’s a hint, none of those essays sound overly difficult (as in, they all sound easy as hell and I am sure I could write a winner and I don’t give a damn about engineering) and if you are that clueless about engineering that you no concept of it at all…why should they let you in? They are at fault for trying to make the essays relate to more students from different backgrounds? I could see if your essay was, “Please describe in detail the inner workings of a combustion engine”, but it wasn’t.

By the way. I have a cousin who majored in engineering and didn’t get a scholarship. He is now making over 90k a year and used to always talk about some “new technology” that he wanted to create eventually. I am sure he could write one hell of an essay on that topic that stumped you so much.

BostonBarrister,

You have it all wrong. That teacher singled you out because you were black. You just don’t have this whole flow down yet. This way, if you don’t get that internship that you wanted, you can say a)Well of course I didn’t, the firm in question is run by a bunch of middle-aged white men who hate blacks and b)The teacher who singled me out stupidly, as has happened to thousands of college students of all colors sexes and creeds over the years for all sorts of stupid reasons, messed me up so badly that I can hardly function.

For my part, I had trouble getting my hands on former papers, not because I was twice their size and intimidated them, but because all of them were inherently racist. I know they were all racist because when I had the occasional angry outburst after not talking to any of the whiteys all semester long, they just hid, you know, because nothing scares the white man more than a large loud black man! After looking stonily at them all semester long and seething, I can’t believe that a bunch of ultra-competitive nerds didn’t rush to my imediate aid!

So BostonBarrister, my response was a real tribute to the educated mind. I replaced the racism that I believed was in the whiteys’ hearts with true, unabashed racism. When a white kid got up the courage to ask me for a test, I scorned him because of his skin color, and gave it to a fellow black! (It was awesome, I even slashed my hand in the air, frowned, and said: “Don’t talk to the Black Man fishbelly motherfucker!”) Now I don’t get it when none of the crackers will talk to me during residency. Fuck 'em. I will just laugh and scare them off if they interrupt me.

Dear engineering school selection committee,

I have always thought that it would be real neat-o to make a little box and go sit in it.

i dont know if this has already been said…

but the “point” system and quotas were ruled unconstitutional, so that is illegal now. (the info about michigan u have is 4 years old)

[quote]Cream wrote:
BostonBarrister,

You have it all wrong. That teacher singled you out because you were black. You just don’t have this whole flow down yet. This way, if you don’t get that internship that you wanted, you can say a)Well of course I didn’t, the firm in question is run by a bunch of middle-aged white men who hate blacks and b)The teacher who singled me out stupidly, as has happened to thousands of college students of all colors sexes and creeds over the years for all sorts of stupid reasons, messed me up so badly that I can hardly function.[/quote]

Cream…and I say that name while laughing because that Prince song is the only thing that comes to mind and you sound just like the type to have “assless” jeans in his closet…you are an idiot. I just had to get that out. If you were a teacher, I feel sorry for any kids you taught. I truly mean that. I feel VERY sorry for them and hope that they don’t take the road of least resistance and end up bringing a rifle to their Office Christmas party due to the damage you caused. Then again, your posts do make me skim really fast over them so as not to reduce any bran cells along the way so at least that skill is kept sharp. I can only hope that I, one day, can match your extensive “hood experience” and reach out to others…only I plan to keep my ass in my jeans. Thanks for responding.

Professor X

I didn’t say I couldn’t write it. I did and am obviously a student at WashU now as I said in my post. It is blatantly obvious that the minority essays were easier than mine. I almost thought they were a joke when I first read them, not an essay that is supposed to get you a scholarship to the #11 college in the US.

[quote]bkerne wrote:
I didn’t say I couldn’t write it. I did and am obviously a student at WashU now as I said in my post. It is blatantly obvious that the minority essays were easier than mine. I almost thought they were a joke when I first read them, not an essay that is supposed to get you a scholarship to the #11 college in the US.[/quote]

It is obviously simply a matter of opinion. ALL of those essays seemed easy as hell. I would hate to see how you react to REAL essays that have to be double spaced and add up to 10 pages long. The questions asked are ALL basic essay questions for any type of school. What do you want to be, why are you here? These questions are designed to give the panel a good look at what is in your head. The question about what books you have read is a primary indicator that could keep more people OUT than in. If you say “Curious George” while the guy next to you writes about how involved he was with “The Da Vinci Code”, who do you think will be looked at more closely? Your own bias seems to be the only thing that makes you think these questions were harder for you. I would hope you would know something about ideas and innovations if you plan to be a freaking engineer. What do you think will get you hired upon graduation?

bkerne

I think the question of an “easy” essay topic is a bit fuzzy here. If anything, I would consider your essay question to be easier because it presented a good opportunity for you to demonstrate your intelligence and creativity. It would have been much harder to demonstrate your intelligence and creativity with the other topics you mentioned. Looks like the minority kids were once again robbed of an opportunity!

Wow, almost a year away from T-Mag and I see that we haven’t progressed an inch. Still a bunch of white dudes whining about some black guys who have it easier than them getting into college, still some pissed off black guy angry at the world because his grandmother drank out of a segregated water cooler.

Simply put: Awesome.

Whiny white guys: shut up and study. Straight A’s in a public high school is easier than crap if you want them. If you weren’t playing X-box all night, pretending you had the drive to succeed athletically that the black race does, and instead embraced your books, you’d do OK. Unfortunately, the same laziness that keeps you scoring a 1000 on a many times over watered down SAT, and hovering at a 3.0 GPA is really the reason why you can’t dunk and run a 4.6 or better forty ( a real 4.6, not a BS 4.6)

What amazed me is when my drunkard whore sister with a horrific lazy eye (and isn’t so bright either)went to Culver Military academy, and they MADE HER STUDY, she suddenly could get straight A’s…huh. I can’t believe that simply by making her sit at her desk for four hours a night, removing all priviledges on the weekends if her grades weren’t up to snuff, and keeping her from making self destructive choices 100% of the time, she could become successful. Not hugely successful mind you, just Smith College (a true academic school, not like WashU (11th ranked by whom?), where the workload for students could choke even the strongest young scholars), and eventually UMich Law School. And trust me, she isn’t inherently bright…maybe 10 watts at best.

You see whiteys, instead of whinning about what other people are getting, she worked, and worked, and worked, and worked, and worked.

So quite learning every 10-move combo on Playstation, hit the books, print out all of Chad and Christian’s articles off of this site and follow those workouts for the next two years, and maybe some lesser deserving minority applicant won’t take your “rightful place”. Maybe instead of whining like little bitches, you could gain enough perspective to realize that those 40 spots in a class of 400 weren’t yours to get in the first place. They were and are reserved for black students. And, if you didn’t suck, you could compete with other kids who have had similar backgrounds…ie, the white kids.

Just think of it like this, when you go to the “courts” to ball, you don’t play on the black court, because that court is reserved for those very few athletes who have worked hard enough on their athleticism and game to play there. You call it the black court, but if you walked over to the rim while the ball was on the other side, grabbed a ball with two hands, and vertically dunked it, you’d play there… talent and athleticism gain respect instantly, as does a 4.0 and a 1600 SAT. Some little black kid doesn’t go off and whine when I do precisely that whenever I go play ball at a new set of courts… they just respect what is…I have developed superior athleticism for my race…I was always the white boy with springs. They don’t whine, so you stop. It is sad as hell. We are a society of weak assed finger pointers. You bunch a wussy T-metros.

Just like on the court, you compete against those with like backgrounds: soft in the middle, cannot squat twice your weight ass to the floor, built top-heavy if at all, no GPP. The white court is good for you.

That being said, I have played ball with many tough as nails white boys… they just all had one thing in common, they were fighters, not whiners. So shut up, you embarrass yourselves. A bunch of soft vag’s if I have ever seen them.

That being said, I would enjoy living in a world where there was a common standard across the board for very definable situations. College is one of them. I realize that Mr. Trigonometry is a damn racist, he has a greek origin, but enjoys keeping the brothers down like no other. So do all of his buddies: Mr. Algebra, Mr. Geometry, and Mr. Calculus. Damn racists every one of them.

The basic entry criteria for colleges are fairly easily definable, and I believe that colleges are supposed to be institutions of higher education. They are supposed to have a diversity of thought, not skin color. If skin color happens, I personally feel that the learning experience is much enhanced.

Before becoming a corporate sellout, I taught in a very racially diverse high school with 50% blacks, and 60% “at-risk students”. For all of you suburb types, “At-Risk” means that those kids have lived though some of the most attrociaous crap ever dealt with by a young person…ever.

Being qualified could also apply to hiring college faculty. I raised quite a ruckus on my campus in my rebuttle to the campus newspaper’s claim that the school’s hiring practice was racist and sexist. You see, AA tries to match workplaces and our existing population percentages…unfortunately, most of the PHD’s received in many subjects are by white males, so the qualified candidate pool has a percentage breakdown very, very dissimilar to that of the entire population. Are we to make things fair among those who are actually qualified to do the job, or by any T, D, or H in society? In looking at the percentages, our faculty were far over represented in percentages by women and minorities when the actual qualified pool was taken into account. Just like the basketball courts, you have to be able to ball before you can play, regardless of color.

Only people as ignorant as politicians would dream up something so stupid… or let it be interpratted as such.

On the other hand, as Pro X knows from much experience, in the business world, it is very easy to hide racism. Did I say very? I meant very, very, very, very, very.

In these cases, AA does a world of good in that the actual criteria for promotions have only somewhat to do with performance. My hardest corporate lesson is that the quality of your work matters much less than the relationships you form…hmmmm Do all of you whiny white guys now see how easy and “undetectable” racism could be in this situation?

Now Pro X, I guess I have done enough “dopey white boy bashing” for now. Now lets educate you a bit, shall we?

I realize that you have had to deal with a bunch of BS in your day. I grew up in the trailer parks, and then we moved to a lower middle class neighborhood. I am the decendant of Swedes who came here as indentured servants after the Emmancipation Proclomation. We didn’t own any slaves, we basically were slaves for a period…but white ones. Now that you know a bit about my family, let’s move on.

Like I said, your plight is completely unknown to me, as it is to any white person. I do not belittle that… I respect what you have done more than you know. I will probably go from sheer anger while typing this to wanting to cry (I know, what a pus) due to the rage I feel about this issue.

You also said above that you have gained perspective from your father who is a principal figure. To start off with, 99% of the teachers and administartors out there are part of the problem. Period. If I have made an error in this estimation, it is that I have estimated too low. At least 99%…so, by sheer numbers and chance, your father probably sucks, and is part of the problem. Before you get pissed, understand that I also, by sheer chance, also probably sucked and was part of the problem…but I doubt it for many of the reasons you have picked up here…excellent education, always was with blacks growing up due to athletic ability, had no money, and so on.

Administartors always say that things are looking better, that things are getting better, that there is a much stronger emphasis on education, etc. We all know that that talk is BS. Things are horrific, and you know it…so do I. The SAT has been re-centered a number of times in the past three decades to make it easier across the board…for white kids and black kids. Across the board we are all less educated than we were 50 years ago. Even if things were getting better, and say that the black community has doubled its efforts to embrace education, unfortunately, 2 X 0 = 0.

You see, I grew up in a family that truly embraced education. They did everything to help my sister who literally may have ended up a crack whore if they hadn’t truly just shipped her to Culver kicking and screaming. But, even in my family, there was little to no focus on education in day to day life. My dad went to college for a while, my step-dad was a former marine, my mom dropped out of HS in 10th grade. They all talked a big education game, but they never supported me, they merely punished me for unacceptable grades. They talked a big “embracing education” game, but how did that BS talk translate to making me a better student? It didn’t…ever.

You stated in one thread that the books that a suburban kid reads are in much better shape than those in inner cities. True. They are also in much better shape than those in rural schools…all white rural schools…hmmm. Do those kids get AA also? They are from ignorant families with no education in their history, do not embrace history, and the teachers out at Po-Dunk senior high are no better than those in the inner-city…believe me. Do those hicks get to fill out special minority questionnares? Nope.

So please do not lump in all white people to one group…each person has his or her own tale. There are many more white kids in craphole schools than black kids, so you don’t get those bragging rights anymore. I am poor white trash, and we are discriminated against by socioeconomics, blacks, asians, whites, AA, everyone. (Probably rightfully so.)

Now, let’s move onto those blacks who were who have been discriminated against recently…horrific at best. People of two generations ago who have faced this type of crap, like segregated drinking fountains, have faced atrocities to the human spirit unknown to white americans…period.

And while I do sympathize with their plight, let’s look at how this all happened: Many, if not most Africans were traded in the Americas through a slave system originating on the west coast of Africa. Africans slave traders (other blacks), would sell their own people to white boaters. These slave traders also had slaves themselves. Blacks owning blacks…huh. These slaves were sold into a country who embraced enlightened thinking in some areas… unfortunately, we also have a large smattering of racist scum… at the time we refrered to these people as Confederates. The South realized that if the western territories weren’t divided up into slave states and free states rather evenly, the ability to own slaves legally might come under attack as the senate and congress would continue to have more and more free states. So, the South “made a run for the border”.

The North would not let this happen, so our country fought and lost 618,000+ men to figure this issue, and others, out. Remember how we all gasped when we lost 1000 men in Irag in a month…? Try tens of thousands in days. To decide the structure and power shift in our forming country… would the old South be able to survive moving forward? They knew that slavery would end if the west was settled as free states.

Meanwhile back in Africa, slavery still was quite prevalent. Does it still exist in some areas in 2005? Hmmm… those awful white people. Damn their ignorance. Why are your cries not directed towards freeing slaves in Somalia…huh. Instead you choose to argue with a bunch of dumbass white guys…not very bright. But, I am trying to help that. Help you with perspective.

Now let’s take a look at the general plight of the black community from a more worldly perspective. You see, if we are saying that white people (remember I wasn’t even out of Sweden yet!!!) took black people out of Africa, and enslaved them (not true, as we know, but OK), then their plot in life just got much worse. And since then, through all of the years we now look at the plight of blacks versus the plight of the whites in this country…obviously the average white person is much better of in America…no doubt. But wait a minute, I cannot do that. This is due to taking a basic logic and argument course. You cannot compare A to A, and then compare A to B as a direct result. If we are to compare the blacks in Africa in the 1700’s to blacks in America in the 1700’s, then we must also compare blacks in America in 2005 to blacks in Africa in 2005. This is basic sound logic, which I assume you know.

So let’s do that.

In America, an average black family has 1 car, a TV or two, Nintendo, eats 3 meals a day (probably not nutritious due to a lack of education (and don’t say it is too expensive…don’t dare, rice, cheap meat cuts, and canned veggies are damn cheap…but don’t taste as good as toasted sugary death cereal). The average family has heat, indoor plumbing, can bathe daily, wears deodorant, and has the opportunity to get an education. None of this is true of the average African family. Some, yes, but not most. While I hate what happened, and continues to happen, and dedicate much of my time to helping educate the young black community on the importance not only of college education, but also financial and entrepreneurial education (real wealth), if it ever gets too awful for you, try visitng Africa. The whites in America suck for bringing the blacks here under the circumstances that they did, I agree, but I don’t see anyone choosing to leave. It isn’t that awful. Perspective.

While it enrages me about your grandmother, if she was in Africa: a) she wouldn’t probably have lived that long, and B) there wouldn’t have been a water fountain to drink out of… it’s that simple.

So now that everyone is my enemy, except every black youth I come into contact with, where can we go from here in this thread?

How about this Pro X. You let the ignorant white people be ignorant. No matter how much you bitch, they will be dumb. Instead of that, why don’t you spend these hours talking at local high schools to parents about the importance of education, and what it has done for you. Don’t just talk about some obscure goal, design a real step-by-step way for the kids to find success. Give a series of talks: financial responsibility, entreprenurism, education, nutrition, etc.

Currently, you are wasting your life here. Instead, you could be changing other lives. These dopey assed " I feel slighted by AA" white guys will be here when you get back. Trust me. It is called “making excuses” to explain why I am mediocre.

Stop telling everyone what the problem is…anyone educated knows that the fault lies in many areas: both with your people, and with white people…so help alter the things your race, your people can alter. Talking to these people here is a waste of time, and a waste of your passion. You are obviously smart. Maybe too passionate for yuor own good at times, but OK, I love passion.

Use it. Be a catalyst for something amazing. Here you just look like an angry black guy… I know you are more than that.

Ignorance is Universal. Only change those worth changing.

Make sense?

A Friend,

Jumanji
CSCS

[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
one. His son goes to MIT and his Dad bought a 300k dollar home. The clincher is his Dad can’t speak English. I can’t talk to him, you can’t talk to him unless you’re ordering off the menu or talking Mandarin. My Dad is a real estate agent and he has to find a translator to talk to him. Kinda interesting… This doesn’t seem to hold him back. Then on the other [/quote]

I already gave you hard time on another thread about your clear bias in favor of Asians, but I wanted to make sure you got my point.

You talk about the fact that this Chinese dude doesn’t speak English as if it wasn’t a great show of disrespect for everybody else in this country.

It is. I believe it is absolutely outrageous that anybody comes to this country and does not bother to learn English - maybe with two exceptions: Spanish in Florida and California, for obvious (especially in California) historical reasons.

And, especially considering your stance on other issues, I’m pretty sure that the only reason you don’t feel the same way is because you clearly have a huge bias in favor of Asians… which basically undermines any race-based viewpoints you might have.

I have been remiss in my reading, looks like I need to do a little backreading.

And I am biased. People that work hard, acieve great things, and don’t bitch are among my favorites each and every day. Especailly when they don’t beg for handouts.

To the next… His lack of skill in English was used to illustrate his extreme disadvantage. Perhaps he doesn’t care to speak it or is blatantly indifferent. He gets by either way and that isn’t the point. What you are doing is called “muddying the waters” as one would say… Bringing up garbage that doesn’t make a damn bit of difference. And also… I think he actually isn’t a citizen I think he has his green card. But hey… I’m not for sure and it totally doesn’t matter.

Back to me… I am actually in favor of an English First Amendment. Every gov’t document in English. You want to appeal, vote, anything… You do it in English. No exceptions. You can’t speak it? You can’t become a citizen and you better find a translator.

Just thought I’d address that quickly.

[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
And I am biased. People that work hard, acieve great things, and don’t bitch are among my favorites each and every day. Especailly when they don’t beg for handouts.
[/quote]

You assume that all Asians are like that, and not only that, you’ve judged that’s a good thing.

Don’t you see a problem with that?

I can easily tell you that I’ve often worked with Asians and that every single experience I’ve had with them has been a nightmare. Every single Asian I’ve worked with - and they have been many - has been completely unable to show any kind of creativity outside established ideas, has had no problem with betraying colleagues (and was unable to defend colleagues in need) and has shown extreme signs of racism.

I know of several places - and I’m not talking Chinese restaurants - that have Asian bosses that will ONLY hire Asians and can get away with it because they have developed very clever techniques of hiding it from the Department of Labor and getting away from suits.

I can easily argue that the reason they don’t beg for handouts and don’t bitch is because they’re so arrogant and filled with pride that would be a sign of weakness. Are pride and arrogance good traits?

Do I go on on these boards saying how bad Asians are? No. Because I assume that the 100 or so people I knew do not necessarily represent the 2 billion Asians there are in the World.

You see, building a stereotype is ALWAYS bad, even if it’s a good one… As is bad elevating somebody due to your stereotype-created bias.

FYI, You can “get away with it” if you are running a small business. Only businesses of a certain size, meaning a certain number of full time employees, are covered by Equal Opportunity hiring laws.

I don’t know that small businesses such as those are the ones to which you are referring, but I wanted to point that out. Actually, the applicability of many, if not most, employment laws depends on a business’ attaining a certain minimum size (though not the same one for all laws).

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
FYI, You can “get away with it” if you are running a small business. Only businesses of a certain size, meaning a certain number of full time employees, are covered by Equal Opportunity hiring laws.
[/quote]

Right on the money BB, right on the money… That’s exactly what they explore: instead of having a large business, they keep it small and instead of expanding they create a separate company/business and stick the name of a friend or family member on it…

And then they only hire people from their own ethnicity, even if they barely speak English and have no idea what they’re doing.

Franchises are a perfect environment for that technique… Over here in the SF Bay Area there are whole franchises (and I’m not talking only about ethnic restaurants) that are completely dominated by a certain ethnicity and there’s no way anyone outside it will be able to get a job there.

Here’s a good article that touches on gender-based affirmative action and the theories surrounding it – it was touched off by the controversy engendered by a recent speech of Larry Summers, former high-up (I think he was Assistant Sec. of State, but my brain is failing me) in the Clinton Administration and current President of Harvard. While this article is about gender discrimination, many of the arguments are more broadly applicable (not those of child-bearing, but some of the stuff on choice is interesting to consider):

Wall Street Journal Op-Ed

Gender Fender-Bender

By RUTH R. WISSE
January 21, 2005; Page A8

Last week, the president of Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers, inadvertently provided further evidence of the opposition to free inquiry that currently governs our institutions of higher learning. Invited to speculate off the record on the “underrepresentation” of women in science, President Summers threw out some hypotheses, including one about innate differentials in aptitude between men and women, that may account for the phenomenon. At this point in his remarks, an MIT female professor of science quit the room, declaring to the press that she couldn’t breathe because “this kind of bias makes me physically ill.”

“What better proof than she of Summers’ thesis?” quipped a friend of mine – and, indeed, what better evidence of underprofessionalism than a scientist who becomes nauseated at the mere hint of a theory that differs from hers? But this woman had artfully framed her outrage. Her claim of “bias” was intended not simply to discredit the male who had asked whether there may be substantive differences between men and women, but to define the permissible terms of discussion. Her show of outrage and the ensuing media attention it elicited were designed to reinforce the claim that “bias” alone is responsible for the situation President Summers addressed.

This accusation of bias, advanced by feminists and often accepted at face value by the academic community, attempts to transform guarantees of equal opportunity into a demand for equal outcome. Thus, a huge majority of female professors at Harvard recently formed a Caucus for Gender Equality to protest the drop in senior job offers to women since President Summers came into office. Offering no evidence of discrimination in hiring and not a single example of a superior female applicant overlooked in favor of a less qualified male, the Caucus charged the president with having reduced “diversity” by failing to hire enough female professors. Although the university denied these unsubstantiated charges, it nonetheless instituted new rules for departmental searches that now require every committee to provide quantitative proof of how many women it has considered for a position at each stage of the screening and selection process.

Ironically, President Summers himself has on occasion advanced the view that affirmative-action procedures for women are necessary because of men’s unconscious bias. That particular unsubstantiated assumption, however, satisfies feminist dogma, whereas there mere possibility of other differences between the sexes offends it. The true character of the campaign against President Summers was corroborated when the same Harvard women’s group that is lobbying for more female professors reproached him for “speaking his mind as an individual” last week rather than toeing what they believe should be the university’s party line. Lobbying for women in the name of greater diversity, they used the club of gender to silence diversity.

Shamefully, they appear to have succeeded. Sounding more like a prisoner in a Soviet show trial than the original thinker that he is, President Summers recanted his error, has apologized at least three times for his insensitivity, and will no doubt hasten to appoint and to promote as many females as he can. The casualties of this exercise are genuine discussion of why women excel faster in some fields than in others, and the kind of intellectual independence that universities were once expected to promote.

The slogan “gender equality” reduces diversity on campus still further by pretending that all women share the same set of views. Protesting that there are currently only 85 tenured female professors at Harvard, about one-quarter of the faculty, the Women’s Caucus boasts that almost all of them agree with its politics. Meanwhile, in a country that has just elected a Republican president and a Republican Congress, one could not find, among Harvard professors, a quarter of a quarter who hold conservative views. Divergent thinkers are driven out of the universities to the think tanks where intellectual initiatives are encouraged rather than suppressed. On the campus, intimidation; beyond the campus, the democratic arena where better ideas can contend and prevail.

Had he been allowed to go on speculating about gender differentiation in the academy, President Summers might have taken up related issues, such as the effects of seeking parity in a marketplace of unequal resources. Given the far lower number of women in the sciences, one unacknowledged consequence of female preference in hiring may be the compensatory pressure to hire and promote women in the humanities and social sciences. The “feminization” of some branches of these “soft” disciplines has been a palpable byproduct of this strategy – feminization referring not just to the numbers but to what and how women who ostensibly share the ideological disposition of the Women’s Caucus tend to teach. Does this not necessarily reshape the nature of higher learning in ways that we would be wise to scrutinize?

Unfortunately, the problem President Summers addressed will persist despite the attempts to silence him. No one doubts that women seeking careers in science face greater challenges than those in other academic and research fields. At a recent forum of Harvard graduate students, a succession of budding female scientists expressed their anxieties about having chosen careers that will conflict, more than most, with their no less strong desires to raise and nurture a family. More than one young woman present felt that a job with reduced pressure during her childbearing years might better suit her needs than competition at the very highest levels. The good news is that most of the young women acknowledged that their dilemma was one of choice rather than a product of discrimination against them.

The very notion of “underrepresentation,” based as it is on the implicit goal of numerical parity, greatly prejudices our ability to understand why women make the choices that they do. If women gravitate to the hard sciences less than to other fields, we ought to grant them the intelligence of sentient creatures, recognizing the potential loneliness of such choices while trying to understand why groups and individuals act as they do. It is not President Summers who owes women an apology; it is the complainers and agitators who owe both him and all of us an apology for trying to shut down discussion of an “inequality” that is not likely to disappear.

Ms. Wisse is the Martin Peretz Professor of Yiddish Literature and Professor of Comparative Literature at Harvard.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Here’s a good article that touches on gender-based affirmative action and the theories surrounding it[/quote]

Interesting article, however I some points for you (that goes into the difference between racial-based AA and a potential gender-based AA). I’d be happy if you addressed them one by one:

  1. Men vs Women

a) Even though many feminists can be pissed off by this, it is a known fact that women’s brains are visibly (albeit not radically) different from men - both in structure and brainwave patterns

b) It is also a known fact that hormonal levels influence our behavior tremendously, and women have almost always very different hormonal levels than men

c) All across the board - i.e., if you take into account ALL areas of knowledge - we have seen the percentage of women vs men entering college has been increasing year after year and it is actually expected that sometime in the very near future there’ll be MORE women in college than men. That is also observed at existing college, since more women are getting employed than men.

  1. Race vs Race

a) As far as I know, no study has ever showed any consistent differences in brain function - not in structure, not in brain activity patterns - between people of the same gender but of different races. I once read somewhere that it is possible to guess the gender of somebody from an MRI, but NOT the race.

b) To the same effect, no consistent hormonal differences have been observed between races, i.e., even though the averages might be slightly off, the differences are minimal and you CANNOT guess the race of somebody by looking at their hormonal levels (but you can do a very good guess at their gender)

c) Some races are still disproportionally absent from EVERY SINGLE knowledge area, meaning that all across the board their % in college is far from their % in the general population. This same pattern is reflected also in their ability to find a job.
[by the way, sport doesn’t count - we’re talking about white collar stuff]

  1. On all other accounts - culturally imposed differences and discrimination - gender bias and race bias are possibly equally common (some people can actually argue that racial bias is still more common, but that’s impossible to substantiate so let’s ignore that).

  2. Hence…

Women and men are consistently different enough that it might be possible and even expected that women are better than men at some tasks but worse at others. So it’s quite possible that in some areas of study there is naturally a much higher percentage of men than women - and others where the opposite is true.

So the behavior we are seeing - women less present in science, but more in other areas, and across the board - it is not only normal, it is expected.

On the other hand, the absence of some races from college and white collar jobs is NOT normal and expected (as in, explained by science).

You know thats why you don’t see homeless or beggars in Asia?

Stereotypes wouldn’t be stereotypes if there wwasn’t truth somewhere deep inside. And no they aren’t all bad. Some are safe. Some are common sense. If I see three thugs late at night, I lock my car door. If I spot 3 well-dressed people, I don’t care.

And now… Let me bring this around. Have you ever read anything at allhiphop.com?!? A bastion of black rights I might add. They consistently promote the use and support of black owned, black operated business. Good for them? Bad for Asian people?

I really don’t see why you get up in arms about people hiring people purely based on their color of skin? Isn’t that what you’re supporting in AA? Less talented people getting jobs from more talented applicants? Hmmm…

Then again… Most of these people are related… Or are close friends of the family. Not that I know every situation. But the few situations I do know of. They help their relatives out. Nothing terrible or nefarious there. Just seems like they do naturally what the black community has been championing for years for good or bad.

[quote]hspder wrote:
2. Race vs Race

a) As far as I know, no study has ever showed any consistent differences in brain function - not in structure, not in brain activity patterns - between people of the same gender but of different races. I once read somewhere that it is possible to guess the gender of somebody from an MRI, but NOT the race.
[/quote]

I don’t believe that whites are smarter than blacks when living in the same conditions, but I want to play DA for a minute. This may piss people off but its not like my motto or anything, I just thought about it.

Black brought to America as slaves were generally first enslaved in Africa by other black tribes which defeated them in battle, or were able to “catch” them. Then they were sold to Arab or white slave traders. Basically, weren’t those who were caught, or lost a battle the ones who were on the lower end of the gene pool?

I’ll give two counter arguments anyway. 1 is that the blacks who were caught in Africa were more likely to be curious, or venture out, and curiosity is a sign of intelligence. 2 would be that scientifically, the human gene pool is not that variable. In other words, you can take two people on the low end of the intelligence spectrum, and they can have smart kids. Again, I haven’t formed any beliefs here (I hope!) but wondering if there’s any gaps in what I know and have presented here.