Adding Olympic Lifts to WS4SB

Training Powerlifting
21

I can’t let a thread with a queation about power cleaning go by without commenting.
I built a very strong pc being mostly self-taught, and now many years later am contending with the form mistakes I ingrained over thousands and thousands of reps. Hips too high at the start, tending to pull out forward too much, shuffling the feel out too wide, and often racking with elbows too low. Despite all that, I loved every pc I ever did and have no regrets.

In addition, I also searched for the best routine and order with pc's, and I had my best success combining them with my shoulder-intensive bench presses and power jerks. I left squats for a day of their own, and a third day for light stuff.

 However, you asked a specific question about integrating it into a Westside template-interesting how many different issues arose from that question. I'll defer placement to the Westside experts.                              Doc
22

[quote]cormac wrote:

I cannot think of one half decent weightlifter that invests less than 8 hours a week on training the full lifts, it’s the nature of the game. And it’s funny, people think things like keeping your ass back, staying over the bar, the double knee bend, elbows over wrist, et cetera are “subtleties”. Fuck, these “subtleties” are the lift.[/quote]

I hope your talking about double knee bend as in the 2nd bend being the bend in the knees to 1/4 squat to catch the bar and not a double knee bend on the pull

23

[quote]romanaz wrote:
cormac wrote:

I cannot think of one half decent weightlifter that invests less than 8 hours a week on training the full lifts, it’s the nature of the game. And it’s funny, people think things like keeping your ass back, staying over the bar, the double knee bend, elbows over wrist, et cetera are “subtleties”. Fuck, these “subtleties” are the lift.

I hope your talking about double knee bend as in the 2nd bend being the bend in the knees to 1/4 squat to catch the bar and not a double knee bend on the pull[/quote]

Pretty sure he’s talking about “the scoop”.

24

[quote]ninearms wrote:
romanaz wrote:
cormac wrote:

I cannot think of one half decent weightlifter that invests less than 8 hours a week on training the full lifts, it’s the nature of the game. And it’s funny, people think things like keeping your ass back, staying over the bar, the double knee bend, elbows over wrist, et cetera are “subtleties”. Fuck, these “subtleties” are the lift.

I hope your talking about double knee bend as in the 2nd bend being the bend in the knees to 1/4 squat to catch the bar and not a double knee bend on the pull

Pretty sure he’s talking about “the scoop”.

[/quote]

I hope not. so ineffective.

http://dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles011.html

quote from that link (its a good read and disproves the double knee bend)
"A lifter should not begin the lifts with a slow “first pull”, then make a conscious effort to perform the so called “double knee bend”, or to “brush the thighs” at a specific point of the pull, as is commonly practiced. These actions should be considered incorrect given the concrete requirements of the snatch and the clean as a whole. They are conscious efforts to execute the exercises in parts and not as a whole. These “conscious efforts” are too slow and inefficient for the weightlifting exercises where the speed of muscular contraction and speed of movement are crucial. "

the whole article talks about speed and not doing a slow first pull and double knee bend because it slows the bar down and makes the 2nd pull not explosive, which is the whole point of it. Another quote
“So, back to our example of Miyaki who, apparently, employed a “slow first pull,” set numerous world records in the snatch in the triathlon era of the 60s. He eventually achieved a best of 125.5 kg in the 60 kg class in 1969. At the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, Naim Suleymanoglu set a world record of 152.5 kg in the snatch in the 60 kg class. He employed an obvious fast as possible starting effort. Despite the obvious, that the lifts were made in different eras of weightlifting (triathlon vs. biathlon), Suleymanoglu’s lift, nevertheless, reflects a huge disparity in results. His results are indicative of the superiority of modern “reactive” technique where the key components are the speed of muscular contraction and the speed of moving the body.”

also, Tommy Kono talks about the double knee bend and how it was once thought to be more effective, but how it has been shown to not be effective and slows you down. Heres the link to his lecture @ the 2005 Arnolds

part 1:

part 2:

that being said, the “scoop” or double knee bend is ineffective and against what the o-lifts are about.

25

Thanks a lot to everyone for the input. I’m going to try the power cleans my self for a while, if I can find someone to show to me then I’ll do that. Here’s what my lower body days look like:

DE:
Vertical Jumping 6x3
Barbell Step-ups 3x8
Dumbbell Swings 3x12
Power Cleans 5x3

Max-Effort:
Zercher Squat working up to a max set
Dumbbell Split Squat w/back foot up 3x8
Romanian Deadlifts 3x8
Single Leg Calf Raises 3x12

I added in the calf work cause I’m not doing abs that day. Also, they were on the top 15 exercises for vertical on DeFranco’s website, I thought why not. What do you guys? Thanks

26

[quote]romanaz wrote:
ninearms wrote:
romanaz wrote:
cormac wrote:

I cannot think of one half decent weightlifter that invests less than 8 hours a week on training the full lifts, it’s the nature of the game. And it’s funny, people think things like keeping your ass back, staying over the bar, the double knee bend, elbows over wrist, et cetera are “subtleties”. Fuck, these “subtleties” are the lift.

I hope your talking about double knee bend as in the 2nd bend being the bend in the knees to 1/4 squat to catch the bar and not a double knee bend on the pull

Pretty sure he’s talking about “the scoop”.

I hope not. so ineffective.

http://dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles011.html

quote from that link (its a good read and disproves the double knee bend)
"A lifter should not begin the lifts with a slow “first pull”, then make a conscious effort to perform the so called “double knee bend”, or to “brush the thighs” at a specific point of the pull, as is commonly practiced. These actions should be considered incorrect given the concrete requirements of the snatch and the clean as a whole. They are conscious efforts to execute the exercises in parts and not as a whole. These “conscious efforts” are too slow and inefficient for the weightlifting exercises where the speed of muscular contraction and speed of movement are crucial. "

the whole article talks about speed and not doing a slow first pull and double knee bend because it slows the bar down and makes the 2nd pull not explosive, which is the whole point of it. Another quote
“So, back to our example of Miyaki who, apparently, employed a “slow first pull,” set numerous world records in the snatch in the triathlon era of the 60s. He eventually achieved a best of 125.5 kg in the 60 kg class in 1969. At the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, Naim Suleymanoglu set a world record of 152.5 kg in the snatch in the 60 kg class. He employed an obvious fast as possible starting effort. Despite the obvious, that the lifts were made in different eras of weightlifting (triathlon vs. biathlon), Suleymanoglu’s lift, nevertheless, reflects a huge disparity in results. His results are indicative of the superiority of modern “reactive” technique where the key components are the speed of muscular contraction and the speed of moving the body.”

also, Tommy Kono talks about the double knee bend and how it was once thought to be more effective, but how it has been shown to not be effective and slows you down. Heres the link to his lecture @ the 2005 Arnolds

part 1:

part 2:

that being said, the “scoop” or double knee bend is ineffective and against what the o-lifts are about. [/quote]

Those links really helped a lot. I had no idea it slowed you down. Thanks

27

[quote]romanaz wrote:
I hope not. so ineffective.

http://dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles011.html

quote from that link (its a good read and disproves the double knee bend)
[/quote]

LMFAO, are you serious dude? This article does not disprove shit. I think you are completely misinterpreting the author.

From the article:

“A lifter should not begin the lifts with a slow “first pull”, then make a conscious effort to perform the so called “double knee bend”, or to “brush the thighs” at a specific point of the pull, as is commonly practiced. These actions should be considered incorrect given the concrete requirements of the snatch and the clean as a whole. They are conscious efforts to execute the exercises in parts and not as a whole. These “conscious efforts” are too slow and inefficient for the weightlifting exercises where the speed of muscular contraction and speed of movement are crucial.”

The fact is that the best lifters in the world demonstrate a technique where tension is maintained in the posterior chain, shoulders stay well out over the bar, and the first pull is demonstrably slow throughout - these factors will invariably lead to a double-knee bend.

This does not mean that the lifter is not attempting to lift the weight maximally, it means that the body’s levers are configured in such a manner as to demonstrate a discernably slow bar velocity on the first pull by maintaining tension at the primary movers for the second pull: the glutes and hamstrings.

Essentially, keeping the ass way back and staying over the bar is going to lead to a slower first pull yet faster second pull than if the lifter rips the bar off the ground with a deadlift. In a maximal or near maximal lift attempt the lifter MUST keep maximal tension in the glutes and hamstrings, making the first pull appear to be “intentionally slow” over seeing the same lifter perform a deadlift.

Bottom line is that nobody ever said to consciously think of rebending the knee or keeping a slow first pull. Proper cues lead to this technique if the full lifts are performed properly.

I cannot believe you think the double knee bend is “so ineffective.” It is the only way to utilize the stretch-shortening cycle, in turn allowing maximal acceleration in the vastly important phase of the lift, the jump. The biomechanics of the bar’s slowed acceleration for a brief transitionary period into this phase, which Kono remarks on in his lecture, is utterly meaningless since CNS inhibition via the stretch-shortening cycle yields greater potential bar velocity in the explosion.

I frankly think that your summation of the uselessness of the double-knee bend is Nonsense, and without a doubt the dumbest thing I have ever heard a weightlifter say to me in my entire life.

28

Um…how is my routine?

29

[quote]romanaz wrote:
ninearms wrote:
romanaz wrote:
cormac wrote:

I cannot think of one half decent weightlifter that invests less than 8 hours a week on training the full lifts, it’s the nature of the game. And it’s funny, people think things like keeping your ass back, staying over the bar, the double knee bend, elbows over wrist, et cetera are “subtleties”. Fuck, these “subtleties” are the lift.

I hope your talking about double knee bend as in the 2nd bend being the bend in the knees to 1/4 squat to catch the bar and not a double knee bend on the pull

Pretty sure he’s talking about “the scoop”.

I hope not. so ineffective.

http://dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles011.html

quote from that link (its a good read and disproves the double knee bend)
"A lifter should not begin the lifts with a slow “first pull”, then make a conscious effort to perform the so called “double knee bend”, or to “brush the thighs” at a specific point of the pull, as is commonly practiced. These actions should be considered incorrect given the concrete requirements of the snatch and the clean as a whole. They are conscious efforts to execute the exercises in parts and not as a whole. These “conscious efforts” are too slow and inefficient for the weightlifting exercises where the speed of muscular contraction and speed of movement are crucial. "

the whole article talks about speed and not doing a slow first pull and double knee bend because it slows the bar down and makes the 2nd pull not explosive, which is the whole point of it. Another quote
“So, back to our example of Miyaki who, apparently, employed a “slow first pull,” set numerous world records in the snatch in the triathlon era of the 60s. He eventually achieved a best of 125.5 kg in the 60 kg class in 1969. At the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, Naim Suleymanoglu set a world record of 152.5 kg in the snatch in the 60 kg class. He employed an obvious fast as possible starting effort. Despite the obvious, that the lifts were made in different eras of weightlifting (triathlon vs. biathlon), Suleymanoglu’s lift, nevertheless, reflects a huge disparity in results. His results are indicative of the superiority of modern “reactive” technique where the key components are the speed of muscular contraction and the speed of moving the body.”

also, Tommy Kono talks about the double knee bend and how it was once thought to be more effective, but how it has been shown to not be effective and slows you down. Heres the link to his lecture @ the 2005 Arnolds

part 1:

part 2:

that being said, the “scoop” or double knee bend is ineffective and against what the o-lifts are about. [/quote]

You’re misreading things. All the article says is that it shouldn’t be conscious.

Also: “The double knee bend movment will automatically come about in all pulls if you maintain a tight back arch throughout the pull and emphasis is made to keep your shoulders over the bar as long as possible.” Tommy Kono

Some reading:

coachesinfo.com/category/strength_and_conditioning/366/
coachesinfo.com/category/strength_and_conditioning/350/

30

oy, I re-read and yes I see my misconception. My bad.

31

[quote]romanaz wrote:
ninearms wrote:
romanaz wrote:
cormac wrote:
part 1:

part 2:

[/quote]

Those are great links, thanks they really helped and I will refer back to them while practicing with the stick.
dianab

32

[quote]PSuns88 wrote:
Thanks a lot to everyone for the input. I’m going to try the power cleans my self for a while, if I can find someone to show to me then I’ll do that. Here’s what my lower body days look like:

DE:
Vertical Jumping 6x3
Barbell Step-ups 3x8
Dumbbell Swings 3x12
Power Cleans 5x3

Max-Effort:
Zercher Squat working up to a max set
Dumbbell Split Squat w/back foot up 3x8
Romanian Deadlifts 3x8
Single Leg Calf Raises 3x12

I added in the calf work cause I’m not doing abs that day. Also, they were on the top 15 exercises for vertical on DeFranco’s website, I thought why not. What do you guys? Thanks[/quote]

is this all in one day? if it is, do ur max efforts first. and it also seems like a lot of exercises for one day if it indeed is.

33

[quote]PSuns88 wrote:
Thanks a lot to everyone for the input. I’m going to try the power cleans my self for a while, if I can find someone to show to me then I’ll do that. Here’s what my lower body days look like:

DE:
Vertical Jumping 6x3
Barbell Step-ups 3x8
Dumbbell Swings 3x12
Power Cleans 5x3

Max-Effort:
Zercher Squat working up to a max set
Dumbbell Split Squat w/back foot up 3x8
Romanian Deadlifts 3x8
Single Leg Calf Raises 3x12

I added in the calf work cause I’m not doing abs that day. Also, they were on the top 15 exercises for vertical on DeFranco’s website, I thought why not. What do you guys? Thanks

is this all in one day? if it is, do ur max efforts first. and it also seems like a lot of exercises for one day if it indeed is.
[/quote]

CT usually recommends to put the O-lifts at the beginning of your workouts.