Example of how stupidly simple my programming is:
Yesterday was bench day. I worked up to a heavy (355) bench single. Then I dropped to 225 for 3 sets of 10. Then I did some rows. That’s it. Bench and rows. I can guarantee that session will serve me better than if I had benched for a few sets, then done incline db’s, then some flys, then some cable crossovers, etc.[/quote]
Legit question: why not bench as much as you did, do the rows, and THEN some incline db’s, flys, and cable work (not factoring time constraints as a reason). I feel that doing some kind of isolation/assistance work is more beneficial than none…just like any kind of work, what matters is -how- you do it.
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lol! Yes, if you don’t facto in time constraints, I suppose I could do anything and everything. Might as well throw in a pilates session, a yoga session, and some P90X if time isn’t a factor. Spend 6 hours a day working out.
But in all seriousness, the bench/row workout took me an hour, and that was all the time I could give to the gym that day. I have a baby at home. But lets pretend that time was less of a constraint. Lets say I had an extra half hour at the gym. If I had that time, it wouldn’t have been spent doing the accessory movements you mentioned.
I would have benched and rowed more. Or perhaps thrown in some overhead pressing, as I don’t hit that lift often enough and need to improve it. Or maybe dips. But in any event, I would have stuck with the heavy compounds. I would literally have to spend 3 hours in the gym to even consider doing dumbbell flys.
Easiest example from my own training was with squats. I had never done leg extensions for years. Recently when I was training with tons of volume, I decided to do leg extensions after finishing my squats. Do 20 at a moderately heavy weight, take a plate off and do 20 more, take one more off and do 20 more. I was doing more work but my legs actually felt less sore.[/quote]
How strong has this made you? And what do you consider ‘tons of volume’? Again, I don’t feel this is the best use of time. The time spent doing these leg extensions COULD have been used to do 1 or 2 more sets of squats.
Squats by themselves usually take me an hour, which is my allotted gym time. And I always wish I had more time to squat. If I had 2 hours to spend instead of 1, I’d probably use the entire 2nd hour to squat.
The exception to this might be something like hack squats. It IS possible for my lower back to begin failing before my legs are truly spent, especially if I did a deadlift session the day before squats. I think the hack squat machine is great at that point. You can really push yourself on the machine, without worrying about missing reps.
As a side note, my quads always cramp when I do leg extensions. So I guess that’s another reason I wouldn’t do them. They’re the worst for me.
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
To answer the question specifically: to tailor it to the individual, to try/learn new movements, to make the program work better.
What I was trying to point out is just not to hate on assistant movements. I understand Flip’s point about keeping it simplistic and the “do x to get better at x” mentality. But just because the focal point of your program is on the main movements does not mean it has to be exclusive of assistant movements or that including assistant movements means you go so hard on them they detract from your strength for the main lifts.
Easiest example from my own training was with squats. I had never done leg extensions for years. Recently when I was training with tons of volume, I decided to do leg extensions after finishing my squats. Do 20 at a moderately heavy weight, take a plate off and do 20 more, take one more off and do 20 more. I was doing more work but my legs actually felt less sore.[/quote]
Perhaps I’m operating under a different hypothetical imperative. I feel as though the goal of the training is to get bigger and stronger, and if this goal is being met, changes are not necessary. I generally only change a program when I am NOT meeting the goal, in which case I feel that your suggestions are well advised.
where did you start out at at what was your program like before? I can’t fathom how someone could concentrate on looks only and still only get to a 180x7 bench after 3 years, even overtraining, and untraining some months you should be able to get higher than that.
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Benching 5x5 with adequate rest and double progression will work, but if your bench hasn’t increased in 3 years you may want to reconsider your programming.
Benching twice a week would be a start. Volume day (5x5, 3x8, 6x4) and then a heavier day for just one or two sets.
There are alot of ways to increase your bench. But I think one of the reason you are failing because you still train the muscle, not the movement, to get stronger. Thats not optimal thinking for strength. Take Flip, he did bench and rows for a workout. His goal for the day was increasing the bench press it was not chest day. You can probably keep the same split you do but by simply not chasing the pump or getting shredded and picking out a few key indicator exercises and getting better at them. The best physique gains will come with you simply focusing on increasing you bench not “training your chest”. You will actually build a much better physique than you probably have.
You must train the movements not the muscles, IMO. When the movements go up the muscles go up. You always should have some sort of indicator exercises that shows you if your work out is actually working. There is no way you have a good physique when you have not gotten stronger in nearly 3 years. It would be damn near impossible for that to happen. I really think your best gains will come with changing the way you think about exercise in general.
Pick any progression model for the bench I guarantee your bench will go up.
You have to cut out a lot of the fluff right now in your workout.
The only reason I do flies is simply because there fun and make my chest look huge for 3 minutes
Example of how stupidly simple my programming is:
Yesterday was bench day. I worked up to a heavy (355) bench single. Then I dropped to 225 for 3 sets of 10. Then I did some rows. That’s it. Bench and rows. I can guarantee that session will serve me better than if I had benched for a few sets, then done incline db’s, then some flys, then some cable crossovers, etc.[/quote]
Legit question: why not bench as much as you did, do the rows, and THEN some incline db’s, flys, and cable work (not factoring time constraints as a reason). I feel that doing some kind of isolation/assistance work is more beneficial than none…just like any kind of work, what matters is -how- you do it.
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lol! Yes, if you don’t facto in time constraints, I suppose I could do anything and everything. Might as well throw in a pilates session, a yoga session, and some P90X if time isn’t a factor. Spend 6 hours a day working out.
But in all seriousness, the bench/row workout took me an hour, and that was all the time I could give to the gym that day. I have a baby at home. But lets pretend that time was less of a constraint. Lets say I had an extra half hour at the gym. If I had that time, it wouldn’t have been spent doing the accessory movements you mentioned.
I would have benched and rowed more. Or perhaps thrown in some overhead pressing, as I don’t hit that lift often enough and need to improve it. Or maybe dips. But in any event, I would have stuck with the heavy compounds. I would literally have to spend 3 hours in the gym to even consider doing dumbbell flys.
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I’m with your style here flip, I come in with a plan for my top set(s) for my main lift and know where I want my progress to be next week/month/etc. I didn’t get a big deadlift or bench or whatever by worrying about if I have time for hamstring curls.
Easiest example from my own training was with squats. I had never done leg extensions for years. Recently when I was training with tons of volume, I decided to do leg extensions after finishing my squats. Do 20 at a moderately heavy weight, take a plate off and do 20 more, take one more off and do 20 more. I was doing more work but my legs actually felt less sore.[/quote]
How strong has this made you? And what do you consider ‘tons of volume’? Again, I don’t feel this is the best use of time. The time spent doing these leg extensions COULD have been used to do 1 or 2 more sets of squats.
Squats by themselves usually take me an hour, which is my allotted gym time. And I always wish I had more time to squat. If I had 2 hours to spend instead of 1, I’d probably use the entire 2nd hour to squat.
The exception to this might be something like hack squats. It IS possible for my lower back to begin failing before my legs are truly spent, especially if I did a deadlift session the day before squats. I think the hack squat machine is great at that point. You can really push yourself on the machine, without worrying about missing reps.
As a side note, my quads always cramp when I do leg extensions. So I guess that’s another reason I wouldn’t do them. They’re the worst for me.[/quote]
For the squats, I was doing the intense cycle of Smolov to peak for a meet. The last week and half I changed up a little to adjust the timing to peak. I squatted high bar belt and sleeves 180kg @ 77kg so while not a super strong squat its not bad either. The leg extensions took no more than 2-3 minutes.
I believe isolation exercises are important too, especially for a bodybuilder or someone who just wants to have a symmetrical physique. So if someone can’t get their chest to “pop” from just incline and flat bench pressing, then go ahead and add flys Same for everything else.
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
To answer the question specifically: to tailor it to the individual, to try/learn new movements, to make the program work better.
What I was trying to point out is just not to hate on assistant movements. I understand Flip’s point about keeping it simplistic and the “do x to get better at x” mentality. But just because the focal point of your program is on the main movements does not mean it has to be exclusive of assistant movements or that including assistant movements means you go so hard on them they detract from your strength for the main lifts.
Easiest example from my own training was with squats. I had never done leg extensions for years. Recently when I was training with tons of volume, I decided to do leg extensions after finishing my squats. Do 20 at a moderately heavy weight, take a plate off and do 20 more, take one more off and do 20 more. I was doing more work but my legs actually felt less sore.[/quote]
Perhaps I’m operating under a different hypothetical imperative. I feel as though the goal of the training is to get bigger and stronger, and if this goal is being met, changes are not necessary. I generally only change a program when I am NOT meeting the goal, in which case I feel that your suggestions are well advised.
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Well my question was much more hypothetical than it was saying to Flip “dude, no accessory movements?? Add that shit now!!”
In the case above, squats were making me bigger and stronger, but recovery was tough. There’s a lot of people who swear by light work to increase blood flow and recovery so I tried out the leg extens simply for that reason. Here’s sort of my point: those few sets didn’t really change the program. I mean, if I asked you to walk for ten minutes at the end of your work out, am I changing your program?? In the literal sense yes, but it isn’t going to bleed into your program.
And this is kind of silly because I agree with Flip and Brick and others – simply bench more and do some simple progressive work and this guy’s bench will likely get stronger. But that doesn’t mean he has to drop dumbbell bench work if he likes it (reworded for Pwnisher : if he thinks it moves him towards his goal). The criminal here was the structure of the training as a whole – not the assistance movements but how they were done (admittedly, his goal was -not- strength)
Pretty certain that if flip’s chest is jacked it’s not only because he brings his bench up to 350+ but because he spends time after that, doing series of 10s with a heavy weight. One of the first video I’ve seen when I was a total noob was obv “how to have huge pecs”. The guy said that if you bench and only bench, reaching multiple sets of 10x225, anyone anywhere, anytime will have a good chest
If you dont spend time in the higher rep/TUT ranges like the other poster’s athletes, you may be very strong/explosive but have an average hypertrophy
Not sure 180x7 to 195x5 is really a gain. It is less volume and a negligible calculated 1RM difference. Let us know when you hit 5x5 @ 225. That is a milestone to remember.
Before I started full body x 3 times a week: Bench 180lbx6
End of First week: 200lb x2
I have a feeling I dropped the volume off a bit too much and I am only getting neural gains. My reps today on each 4 sets of bench were under 4.
I have volume on 3 sets of incline db presses 3 sets of 6-12.
Is this a good way to approach “adding 40lb to my bench” in the fastest way possible, just go in and add more to the bar ? so my next workout I will try bench 205 for 2 reps after beating my current record of 200lbx2. By benching 200lb for as many reps as possible.
Benching 3 times per week 4 sets with 2-5 reps seems to be working for me.
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I don’t think you understand how progress works. This has already been explained to you.
195x5 up to 205x5 would be clear progress. 195x5 to 205x3 is not. If you only add 10 lbs to the bar and lose 2 reps, it’s likely you didn’t get stronger at all.
You know what though? Do what you want. You obviously have no intention of listening to people who know what they’re doing. I know how to add large amounts of weight to the bench press because I’ve done it. I’ve added 50 lbs to my bench this year.
If you want to get better at the flat bench press, do more work on the flat bench press. If you want bigger pecs, or something other than an improved bench press, then do something else.
The only assistance exercises I would do are dips, because I can get more volume into my workout without risk of injury (I’ve had pec and shoulder injuries in the past), and sometimes incline bench press with a barbell. Although I don’t do that often, as it’s not a great movement for me. I know other people get a lot out of it though.