About Belief, Religion and God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
741

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
BIA - I watched your 4 minute video and I know it was a waste of time. Belief in God takes faith!! God will not present himself directly and demand people to do his bidding. He loves human kind as a whole and gave each of us free will. I watched your link, so please read the below story ; )

I KNOW God exists, with more than 100% certainty. This is a story about myself so I know the facts to be true. On May 1st, '05 I was on a friend’s motorcycle and going to a body shop to help Charlie repaint a truck he rolled. We were watching MotoGP and after the races I was riding his bike. I broke the #3 crank bearing in my bike at a track day the fall before. I had just turned onto a ‘T’ in the road. A girl coming the opposite direction didn’t see me, or she thought she could make it. I don’t know and in reality I don’t care. She turned in front of me. I was flung off the bike and my R arm went through the windshield of the car. I broke my brachial plexus and without leather pants I have severe road rash on my R leg. The ‘best’ doctor in the NW was in Spokane flying on a route he runs every once in a while. He repaired my leg with muscle/tendons from my calf and a skin graft from my thigh. I had a helmet on, so that helped.

Now come the incredible details. I was in a coma for ~6 weeks. Coma’s are classified in three classes. Mild, moderate and severe. Want guess which one I fell into? Yup, severe. Every single doctor told my family to expect me to die during the first few weeks. I literally did nothing! I was a complete vegetable. My family was in my hospital room talking one morning. They were going to get something to eat for breakfast. As they filed out of my room my brother was the last one to leave the room.

“See you after we get some breakfast Eric.” I didn’t respond clearly, but everyone in the family knew I was responding to external stimuli. No one thought my life would continue and here I was making noise back to my brother!! The family was terribly excited. I remember just a few details over the next couple of months. I remember seeing my lab for the first time, she was a happy girl : ) I remember one of my cousin’s that came to see me with a bunch of his friends. Then the plane ride from Spokane to Boise was literally the most painful experience of my life!! My whole body was hurting. I had a “fresh head injury” yet my senses remain clear about thosr following ~35 min. OMG it hurt!!

Doctors have always been one to set restrictions on me and my family follows suit. I smash through every last fucking obstacle that people insist on putting before me. Don’t think I can do it? Just put the object in front of me and I will try until it is completed. I even surprise myself! ; ) I went back to college in '08 and am on track to graduate this spring. How many people thought I would be able to do that? None that I have talked to, not a single soul. Don’t tell me it was chance that caused me to survive. Let alone impress everyone that meets me. Don’t tell me God doesn’t exist. Use the brain matter in your head before you claim “There is no God and I can prove it with science, etc.” The craziest detail have yet to mention, I had NO medical insurance before the accident, yet it went active on May 1st.
[/quote]

Sorry, I believe in God, very much, but this was not an act of God. Ecc 9:11 - Unforeseen events befall us all. This was one of those. The fact you survived was dependent on a multitude of variables. God does not intervene like that.

742

I didn’t mention with the damage done to my brain, swelling caused massive amounts of presure. Neuron’s are like cooked spaghetti (that’s my definition, not a medical one) ( : and I wasn’t able to talk or eat or do anything on my own until I learned how to do it on my own. The coma was supposed to be my body shutting down, much like a computer shutting off.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

You probably survived because whatever damage was done to you that caused the coma started healing and resolving itself. Otherwise, you would have remained in the coma.[/quote]

743

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

Believe everything? Yes, because it was all inspired of God - 2 Tim 3:16.

744

Before my accident I didn’t believe in God. Not the case now. God won’t directly save people, I didn’t make that claim. I am testifying to the existence of God.

Those multitude of variables would have nothing to do with God? Saying you have a belief of God and believing IN God are two different things.

As a side note, do you know who can quote the Bible better than anyone? Look his name up in the dictionary above the word “luck”. It is an interesting word placement, in my opinion ; )

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

Sorry, I believe in God, very much, but this was not an act of God. Ecc 9:11 - Unforeseen events befall us all. This was one of those. The fact you survived was dependent on a multitude of variables. God does not intervene like that.[/quote]

745

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I didn’t mention with the damage done to my brain, swelling caused massive amounts of presure. Neuron’s are like cooked spaghetti (that’s my definition, not a medical one) ( : and I wasn’t able to talk or eat or do anything on my own until I learned how to do it on my own. The coma was supposed to be my body shutting down, much like a computer shutting off.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

You probably survived because whatever damage was done to you that caused the coma started healing and resolving itself. Otherwise, you would have remained in the coma.[/quote]
[/quote]

I understand that this was a very personal, life changing event, but it doesn’t prove that God exists. For each case like this, there’s at least an equal number who don’t recover.

746

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

Believe everything? Yes, because it was all inspired of God - 2 Tim 3:16.[/quote]

Gotcha. So as a person with strong faith and belief, how do you justify the things in the Bible which you might not morally agree with? This is not an attack, just a honest question.

747

God is NOT going to directly show himself no matter how much you cry and scream.

When you look for God he shows himself to you. Lets try a different line of thought. Where did humans come from? Did we evolve etc., whatever the case would be?

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

I understand that this was a very personal, life changing event, but it doesn’t prove that God exists. For each case like this, there’s at least an equal number who don’t recover.[/quote]

748

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

Believe everything? Yes, because it was all inspired of God - 2 Tim 3:16.[/quote]

Gotcha. So as a person with strong faith and belief, how do you justify the things in the Bible which you might not morally agree with? This is not an attack, just a honest question.[/quote]

Is there any particular examples? At this time, I can’t think of any that I don’t agree with.

749

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
God is NOT going to directly show himself no matter how much you cry and scream.

When you look for God he shows himself to you. Lets try a different line of thought. Where did humans come from? Did we evolve etc., whatever the case would be?

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

I understand that this was a very personal, life changing event, but it doesn’t prove that God exists. For each case like this, there’s at least an equal number who don’t recover.[/quote]
[/quote]

knee, backinaction asked a very reasonable question. i agree with him. is their a particular point you are trying to make? i can see you are passionate about your position, but you are going about it in the wrong way. just like science uses sources, people that are religious need to source their holy book (the bible appears to be the holy book in the conversation) to back their position.

750

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. If you are a bible literalist, it means you believe everything in the bible word for word, as written as absolute facts. If that is what you mean, then I am not. The bible is a book of truth, or a book about seeking it. It uses, facts, stories, parables, events of history, philosophical thoughts, etc to get it’s message across. It tells God’s story as is pertains to his relationship with man. You can read it a thousand times and never get all of it, or even most of it. You’ll be lucky to get some of it.
It’s cryptic, complicated, multifaceted, over translated, paradoxical, contradictory and some times just very plain and simplistic; just like people are. The bible isn’t here to tell us about the world, it’s here to tell us God’s story and how we can relate. There is no other book in the world like it, that’s for sure. And yes, I believe it.
I would think it a fascinating study for anyone interested in literature.

751

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

Believe everything? Yes, because it was all inspired of God - 2 Tim 3:16.[/quote]

Gotcha. So as a person with strong faith and belief, how do you justify the things in the Bible which you might not morally agree with? This is not an attack, just a honest question.[/quote]

Is there any particular examples? At this time, I can’t think of any that I don’t agree with.
[/quote]

Sure thing, here are a few. Again, this is not an attack. I’m just trying to figure out how honest, good-natured people can believe the good with the bad.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
-Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.”
-Exodus 21:2-6

752

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
God is NOT going to directly show himself no matter how much you cry and scream.

When you look for God he shows himself to you. Lets try a different line of thought. Where did humans come from? Did we evolve etc., whatever the case would be?

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

I understand that this was a very personal, life changing event, but it doesn’t prove that God exists. For each case like this, there’s at least an equal number who don’t recover.[/quote]
[/quote]

knee, backinaction asked a very reasonable question. i agree with him. is their a particular point you are trying to make? i can see you are passionate about your position, but you are going about it in the wrong way. just like science uses sources, people that are religious need to source their holy book (the bible appears to be the holy book in the conversation) to back their position.[/quote]

Thank you, honest_lifter.

753

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. If you are a bible literalist, it means you believe everything in the bible word for word, as written as absolute facts. If that is what you mean, then I am not. The bible is a book of truth, or a book about seeking it. It uses, facts, stories, parables, events of history, philosophical thoughts, etc to get it’s message across. It tells God’s story as is pertains to his relationship with man. You can read it a thousand times and never get all of it, or even most of it. You’ll be lucky to get some of it.
It’s cryptic, complicated, multifaceted, over translated, paradoxical, contradictory and some times just very plain and simplistic; just like people are. The bible isn’t here to tell us about the world, it’s here to tell us God’s story and how we can relate. There is no other book in the world like it, that’s for sure. And yes, I believe it.
I would think it a fascinating study for anyone interested in literature.[/quote]

Very interesting, I like the comparison of the Bible to the nature of people. Never thought of that. Thanks, Pat.

754

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. If you are a bible literalist, it means you believe everything in the bible word for word, as written as absolute facts. If that is what you mean, then I am not. The bible is a book of truth, or a book about seeking it. It uses, facts, stories, parables, events of history, philosophical thoughts, etc to get it’s message across. It tells God’s story as is pertains to his relationship with man. You can read it a thousand times and never get all of it, or even most of it. You’ll be lucky to get some of it.
It’s cryptic, complicated, multifaceted, over translated, paradoxical, contradictory and some times just very plain and simplistic; just like people are. The bible isn’t here to tell us about the world, it’s here to tell us God’s story and how we can relate. There is no other book in the world like it, that’s for sure. And yes, I believe it.
I would think it a fascinating study for anyone interested in literature.[/quote]

I agree with you in the sense that there are much symbolism and many parables in the bible to explain things. However, do you feel that the bible has a message for us? Anything that will benefit us now and in the future?

755

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

Sure thing, here are a few. Again, this is not an attack. I’m just trying to figure out how honest, good-natured people can believe the good with the bad.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
-Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.”
-Exodus 21:2-6
[/quote]

Are you asking if i still feel this should go on today? Are you asking if i believe this actually happened? Or Are you asking if I feel God was wrong with these laws?

I just want to clarify, before continuing.

756

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

Sure thing, here are a few. Again, this is not an attack. I’m just trying to figure out how honest, good-natured people can believe the good with the bad.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
-Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.”
-Exodus 21:2-6
[/quote]

Are you asking if i still feel this should go on today? Are you asking if i believe this actually happened? Or Are you asking if I feel God was wrong with these laws?

I just want to clarify, before continuing. [/quote]

Sure thing. Obviously, I’m sure you don’t agree with any of the above. However, these verses all come from the same holy book as the verses that portray good values (love, compassion, peace). How do you dismiss or justify these parts without dismissing the rest of the Bible?

Here’s an example I like to think of: Imagine I have a dictionary that has several definitions that are clearly wrong. How do I put my faith in the rest of it, when several parts of it are severally flawed?

757

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

Sure thing, here are a few. Again, this is not an attack. I’m just trying to figure out how honest, good-natured people can believe the good with the bad.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
-Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.”
-Exodus 21:2-6
[/quote]

Are you asking if i still feel this should go on today? Are you asking if i believe this actually happened? Or Are you asking if I feel God was wrong with these laws?

I just want to clarify, before continuing. [/quote]

honest_lifter - have you come into contact with JW’s, or are you one yourself?

758

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

Sure thing, here are a few. Again, this is not an attack. I’m just trying to figure out how honest, good-natured people can believe the good with the bad.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
-Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.”
-Exodus 21:2-6
[/quote]

Are you asking if i still feel this should go on today? Are you asking if i believe this actually happened? Or Are you asking if I feel God was wrong with these laws?

I just want to clarify, before continuing. [/quote]

Sure thing. Obviously, I’m sure you don’t agree with any of the above. However, these verses all come from the same holy book as the verses that portray good values (love, compassion, peace). How do you dismiss or justify these parts without dismissing the rest of the Bible?

Here’s an example I like to think of: Imagine I have a dictionary that has several definitions that are clearly wrong. How do I put my faith in the rest of it, when several parts of it are severally flawed?
[/quote]

Well you have to look at the Bible as a whole. Bear in mind, that all the scriptures that you chose are from the old testament. Those were the laws for Israel at the time.

Also, who is to say that those laws were wrong? For one thing, in regards to the first scripture, there are very strong commands in the Christian Greek Scriptures regarding drunkenness, and gluttony as well. - 1 cor 5:11-13

As regards the case of the woman getting raped, this was a protection for the woman. If a man felt that he could have sex with any women he chose, she would be the main loser. She would no longer have as much value as a bride due to her no longer being a virgin, but also that she would run the risk of having an illegitamite child.

In bible times, the only legal ground for divorcing amongst the Israelites was on the grounds of fornication. If a man had done this to a woman, he would lose that right and would be stuck with her forever. So a man would have to weigh heavily the long term consequences of his actions, and reducing the chances of such things happening.

this also reinforces the seriousness of fornication today.

As regards the slave scripture: This was also a protection for the slave. There were already laws in place were the Israelites had to show respect for the slaves and to treat them well. This is proved also by the fact that there was an option if the slave said “‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’” Why would a slave say this if he wasn’t treated well? this protection allowed the slave to go free on the sabbath year, or after 6 years of service. a loving provision indeed for the times.

however, as i said, we are no longer under those laws. The Christ fulfilled that law when he died. - Romans 10:4

Also, we get reassurance the book of Job, in the following: “Far be it from God to act wickedly, And the Almighty to act unjustly!” - Job 34:10

I hope this helps answer some of your questions. The parts you chose do show mercy love and compassion. though they would seem out of place in our day, hopefully through my explanation, they may seem a little more reasonable and understandable.

759

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. If you are a bible literalist, it means you believe everything in the bible word for word, as written as absolute facts. If that is what you mean, then I am not. The bible is a book of truth, or a book about seeking it. It uses, facts, stories, parables, events of history, philosophical thoughts, etc to get it’s message across. It tells God’s story as is pertains to his relationship with man. You can read it a thousand times and never get all of it, or even most of it. You’ll be lucky to get some of it.
It’s cryptic, complicated, multifaceted, over translated, paradoxical, contradictory and some times just very plain and simplistic; just like people are. The bible isn’t here to tell us about the world, it’s here to tell us God’s story and how we can relate. There is no other book in the world like it, that’s for sure. And yes, I believe it.
I would think it a fascinating study for anyone interested in literature.[/quote]

I agree with you in the sense that there are much symbolism and many parables in the bible to explain things. However, do you feel that the bible has a message for us? Anything that will benefit us now and in the future? [/quote]

It has many messages to fit or many moods and sensibilities. Or like I said it can be very simple and clear. You’ll get out what you put in…For instance, if you are interested in just getting the basic point and do not want to burden yourself with “Bible Study” you need to know one verse and that’s it. You are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself, period. If you do that, everything will fall into place. Or you can study it, pour over it, it can be an agonizing ordeal really.
Now as far as applications to today, sure absolutely, but not all of it. Somethings or books in the bible are there to set up other things in it. Others are just laying down the law for what is a very unruly people. For instance, Numbers, I could give a fuck how many cubits long an alter was supposed to be. I suppose that is there to establish archeological value so that look for the history of these people in the dirt.
Genesis is probably the most important book outside the gospels. It sets them up and the leap frogging you can do between Genesis and the gospels is endless.
The letters are important, but I find St. Paul a little over zealous like a typical convert who goes from doing a lot of wrong, to being so damn stiff and rigid that almost existing is wrong. Of course, he probably never envisioned these writing becoming a part of the bible, so I guess I can cut him a little slack.

The wisdom books and the moral teachings in the gospel are the money, though. If you want answers and you don’t care who the king was, go there.

760

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

Sure thing, here are a few. Again, this is not an attack. I’m just trying to figure out how honest, good-natured people can believe the good with the bad.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
-Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.”
-Exodus 21:2-6
[/quote]

Are you asking if i still feel this should go on today? Are you asking if i believe this actually happened? Or Are you asking if I feel God was wrong with these laws?

I just want to clarify, before continuing. [/quote]

Sure thing. Obviously, I’m sure you don’t agree with any of the above. However, these verses all come from the same holy book as the verses that portray good values (love, compassion, peace). How do you dismiss or justify these parts without dismissing the rest of the Bible?

Here’s an example I like to think of: Imagine I have a dictionary that has several definitions that are clearly wrong. How do I put my faith in the rest of it, when several parts of it are severally flawed?
[/quote]

Well you have to look at the Bible as a whole. Bear in mind, that all the scriptures that you chose are from the old testament. Those were the laws for Israel at the time.

Also, who is to say that those laws were wrong? For one thing, in regards to the first scripture, there are very strong commands in the Christian Greek Scriptures regarding drunkenness, and gluttony as well. - 1 cor 5:11-13

As regards the case of the woman getting raped, this was a protection for the woman. If a man felt that he could have sex with any women he chose, she would be the main loser. She would no longer have as much value as a bride due to her no longer being a virgin, but also that she would run the risk of having an illegitamite child.

In bible times, the only legal ground for divorcing amongst the Israelites was on the grounds of fornication. If a man had done this to a woman, he would lose that right and would be stuck with her forever. So a man would have to weigh heavily the long term consequences of his actions, and reducing the chances of such things happening.

this also reinforces the seriousness of fornication today.

As regards the slave scripture: This was also a protection for the slave. There were already laws in place were the Israelites had to show respect for the slaves and to treat them well. This is proved also by the fact that there was an option if the slave said “‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’” Why would a slave say this if he wasn’t treated well? this protection allowed the slave to go free on the sabbath year, or after 6 years of service. a loving provision indeed for the times.

however, as i said, we are no longer under those laws. The Christ fulfilled that law when he died. - Romans 10:4

Also, we get reassurance the book of Job, in the following: “Far be it from God to act wickedly, And the Almighty to act unjustly!” - Job 34:10

I hope this helps answer some of your questions. The parts you chose do show mercy love and compassion. though they would seem out of place in our day, hopefully through my explanation, they may seem a little more reasonable and understandable.

[/quote]

Thank you for your well described answers. Very interesting and I agree, you have to put yourself into that time period to grasp the answers better. While I still don’t agree with the justice or morality in them, I understand them more.

I have one additional question based on what you said. “However, as i said, we are no longer under those laws. The Christ fulfilled that law when he died.” Can you explain this further? It seems like you’re implying the old testament’s laws are no longer valid.