About Belief, Religion and God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
761

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

Thank you for your well described answers. Very interesting and I agree, you have to put yourself into that time period to grasp the answers better. While I still don’t agree with the justice or morality in them, I understand them more.

I have one additional question based on what you said. “However, as i said, we are no longer under those laws. The Christ fulfilled that law when he died.” Can you explain this further? It seems like you’re implying the old testament’s laws are no longer valid.[/quote]

You are correct. We are no longer under the law. Gal 3:24,25 states, "Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor. "

Acts 15:28,29 says the following, “For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

This was after the old law was put away. Some things were carried over, but some were done away with.

Think about it this way: The U.S. started off as colonies owned by the British Empire. When they seperated, they were no longer under the law of the British, but the rules they created contained many of the same things.

762

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. If you are a bible literalist, it means you believe everything in the bible word for word, as written as absolute facts. If that is what you mean, then I am not. The bible is a book of truth, or a book about seeking it. It uses, facts, stories, parables, events of history, philosophical thoughts, etc to get it’s message across. It tells God’s story as is pertains to his relationship with man. You can read it a thousand times and never get all of it, or even most of it. You’ll be lucky to get some of it.
It’s cryptic, complicated, multifaceted, over translated, paradoxical, contradictory and some times just very plain and simplistic; just like people are. The bible isn’t here to tell us about the world, it’s here to tell us God’s story and how we can relate. There is no other book in the world like it, that’s for sure. And yes, I believe it.
I would think it a fascinating study for anyone interested in literature.[/quote]

I agree with you in the sense that there are much symbolism and many parables in the bible to explain things. However, do you feel that the bible has a message for us? Anything that will benefit us now and in the future? [/quote]

It has many messages to fit or many moods and sensibilities. Or like I said it can be very simple and clear. You’ll get out what you put in…For instance, if you are interested in just getting the basic point and do not want to burden yourself with “Bible Study” you need to know one verse and that’s it. You are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself, period. If you do that, everything will fall into place. Or you can study it, pour over it, it can be an agonizing ordeal really.
Now as far as applications to today, sure absolutely, but not all of it. Somethings or books in the bible are there to set up other things in it. Others are just laying down the law for what is a very unruly people. For instance, Numbers, I could give a fuck how many cubits long an alter was supposed to be. I suppose that is there to establish archeological value so that look for the history of these people in the dirt.
Genesis is probably the most important book outside the gospels. It sets them up and the leap frogging you can do between Genesis and the gospels is endless.
The letters are important, but I find St. Paul a little over zealous like a typical convert who goes from doing a lot of wrong, to being so damn stiff and rigid that almost existing is wrong. Of course, he probably never envisioned these writing becoming a part of the bible, so I guess I can cut him a little slack.

The wisdom books and the moral teachings in the gospel are the money, though. If you want answers and you don’t care who the king was, go there.
[/quote]

May i ask, what do you think the purpose in writing the Bible was? You mentioned Genesis as being very important, which i absolutely agree. It lays the basis for why the rest of the bible was needed.

763

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…that’s a pity, pat…[/quote]
Do you really think it would change my mind? Give me the 30 second version, what are they saying. I don’t have a hour to spend on something somebody on the internet wants me to do.[/quote]

Wow. Just wow.

How about you give me a convincing 20 second version of why God exists. Go on, I’m waiting.[/quote]

You can flip back through this thread and see for yourself, lazy ass. [/quote]

I said convincing, fuckwit.

764

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
BIA - I watched your 4 minute video and I know it was a waste of time. Belief in God takes faith!! God will not present himself directly and demand people to do his bidding. He loves human kind as a whole and gave each of us free will. I watched your link, so please read the below story ; )

I KNOW God exists, with more than 100% certainty. This is a story about myself so I know the facts to be true. On May 1st, '05 I was on a friend’s motorcycle and going to a body shop to help Charlie repaint a truck he rolled. We were watching MotoGP and after the races I was riding his bike. I broke the #3 crank bearing in my bike at a track day the fall before. I had just turned onto a ‘T’ in the road. A girl coming the opposite direction didn’t see me, or she thought she could make it. I don’t know and in reality I don’t care. She turned in front of me. I was flung off the bike and my R arm went through the windshield of the car. I broke my brachial plexus and without leather pants I have severe road rash on my R leg. The ‘best’ doctor in the NW was in Spokane flying on a route he runs every once in a while. He repaired my leg with muscle/tendons from my calf and a skin graft from my thigh. I had a helmet on, so that helped.

Now come the incredible details. I was in a coma for ~6 weeks. Coma’s are classified in three classes. Mild, moderate and severe. Want guess which one I fell into? Yup, severe. Every single doctor told my family to expect me to die during the first few weeks. I literally did nothing! I was a complete vegetable. My family was in my hospital room talking one morning. They were going to get something to eat for breakfast. As they filed out of my room my brother was the last one to leave the room.

“See you after we get some breakfast Eric.” I didn’t respond clearly, but everyone in the family knew I was responding to external stimuli. No one thought my life would continue and here I was making noise back to my brother!! The family was terribly excited. I remember just a few details over the next couple of months. I remember seeing my lab for the first time, she was a happy girl : ) I remember one of my cousin’s that came to see me with a bunch of his friends. Then the plane ride from Spokane to Boise was literally the most painful experience of my life!! My whole body was hurting. I had a “fresh head injury” yet my senses remain clear about thosr following ~35 min. OMG it hurt!!

Doctors have always been one to set restrictions on me and my family follows suit. I smash through every last fucking obstacle that people insist on putting before me. Don’t think I can do it? Just put the object in front of me and I will try until it is completed. I even surprise myself! ; ) I went back to college in '08 and am on track to graduate this spring. How many people thought I would be able to do that? None that I have talked to, not a single soul. Don’t tell me it was chance that caused me to survive. Let alone impress everyone that meets me. Don’t tell me God doesn’t exist. Use the brain matter in your head before you claim “There is no God and I can prove it with science, etc.” The craziest detail have yet to mention, I had NO medical insurance before the accident, yet it went active on May 1st.
[/quote]

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.

765

Who is the one crying like a little brat, screaming and insulting people?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.[/quote]

766

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
BIA - I watched your 4 minute video and I know it was a waste of time. Belief in God takes faith!! God will not present himself directly and demand people to do his bidding. He loves human kind as a whole and gave each of us free will. I watched your link, so please read the below story ; )

I KNOW God exists, with more than 100% certainty. This is a story about myself so I know the facts to be true. On May 1st, '05 I was on a friend’s motorcycle and going to a body shop to help Charlie repaint a truck he rolled. We were watching MotoGP and after the races I was riding his bike. I broke the #3 crank bearing in my bike at a track day the fall before. I had just turned onto a ‘T’ in the road. A girl coming the opposite direction didn’t see me, or she thought she could make it. I don’t know and in reality I don’t care. She turned in front of me. I was flung off the bike and my R arm went through the windshield of the car. I broke my brachial plexus and without leather pants I have severe road rash on my R leg. The ‘best’ doctor in the NW was in Spokane flying on a route he runs every once in a while. He repaired my leg with muscle/tendons from my calf and a skin graft from my thigh. I had a helmet on, so that helped.

Now come the incredible details. I was in a coma for ~6 weeks. Coma’s are classified in three classes. Mild, moderate and severe. Want guess which one I fell into? Yup, severe. Every single doctor told my family to expect me to die during the first few weeks. I literally did nothing! I was a complete vegetable. My family was in my hospital room talking one morning. They were going to get something to eat for breakfast. As they filed out of my room my brother was the last one to leave the room.

“See you after we get some breakfast Eric.” I didn’t respond clearly, but everyone in the family knew I was responding to external stimuli. No one thought my life would continue and here I was making noise back to my brother!! The family was terribly excited. I remember just a few details over the next couple of months. I remember seeing my lab for the first time, she was a happy girl : ) I remember one of my cousin’s that came to see me with a bunch of his friends. Then the plane ride from Spokane to Boise was literally the most painful experience of my life!! My whole body was hurting. I had a “fresh head injury” yet my senses remain clear about thosr following ~35 min. OMG it hurt!!

Doctors have always been one to set restrictions on me and my family follows suit. I smash through every last fucking obstacle that people insist on putting before me. Don’t think I can do it? Just put the object in front of me and I will try until it is completed. I even surprise myself! ; ) I went back to college in '08 and am on track to graduate this spring. How many people thought I would be able to do that? None that I have talked to, not a single soul. Don’t tell me it was chance that caused me to survive. Let alone impress everyone that meets me. Don’t tell me God doesn’t exist. Use the brain matter in your head before you claim “There is no God and I can prove it with science, etc.” The craziest detail have yet to mention, I had NO medical insurance before the accident, yet it went active on May 1st.
[/quote]

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.[/quote]

…go easy on the guy, he’s probably suffered brain damage as a result. Explains a lot, doesn’t it?

767

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Who is the one crying like a little brat, screaming and insulting people?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.[/quote]
[/quote]

We really must take it easy on people like this, they are pitiable.

768

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…that’s a pity, pat…[/quote]
Do you really think it would change my mind? Give me the 30 second version, what are they saying. I don’t have a hour to spend on something somebody on the internet wants me to do.[/quote]

Wow. Just wow.

How about you give me a convincing 20 second version of why God exists. Go on, I’m waiting.[/quote]

You can flip back through this thread and see for yourself, lazy ass. [/quote]

I said convincing, fuckwit.[/quote]

Not my problem that this is waaaay over your head. Get an education and get back to me on it when you have a clue.

769

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And here’s another question for anyone interested in answering:

Do you believe everything in the Bible? Why or why not?[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. If you are a bible literalist, it means you believe everything in the bible word for word, as written as absolute facts. If that is what you mean, then I am not. The bible is a book of truth, or a book about seeking it. It uses, facts, stories, parables, events of history, philosophical thoughts, etc to get it’s message across. It tells God’s story as is pertains to his relationship with man. You can read it a thousand times and never get all of it, or even most of it. You’ll be lucky to get some of it.
It’s cryptic, complicated, multifaceted, over translated, paradoxical, contradictory and some times just very plain and simplistic; just like people are. The bible isn’t here to tell us about the world, it’s here to tell us God’s story and how we can relate. There is no other book in the world like it, that’s for sure. And yes, I believe it.
I would think it a fascinating study for anyone interested in literature.[/quote]

I agree with you in the sense that there are much symbolism and many parables in the bible to explain things. However, do you feel that the bible has a message for us? Anything that will benefit us now and in the future? [/quote]

It has many messages to fit or many moods and sensibilities. Or like I said it can be very simple and clear. You’ll get out what you put in…For instance, if you are interested in just getting the basic point and do not want to burden yourself with “Bible Study” you need to know one verse and that’s it. You are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself, period. If you do that, everything will fall into place. Or you can study it, pour over it, it can be an agonizing ordeal really.
Now as far as applications to today, sure absolutely, but not all of it. Somethings or books in the bible are there to set up other things in it. Others are just laying down the law for what is a very unruly people. For instance, Numbers, I could give a fuck how many cubits long an alter was supposed to be. I suppose that is there to establish archeological value so that look for the history of these people in the dirt.
Genesis is probably the most important book outside the gospels. It sets them up and the leap frogging you can do between Genesis and the gospels is endless.
The letters are important, but I find St. Paul a little over zealous like a typical convert who goes from doing a lot of wrong, to being so damn stiff and rigid that almost existing is wrong. Of course, he probably never envisioned these writing becoming a part of the bible, so I guess I can cut him a little slack.

The wisdom books and the moral teachings in the gospel are the money, though. If you want answers and you don’t care who the king was, go there.
[/quote]

May i ask, what do you think the purpose in writing the Bible was? You mentioned Genesis as being very important, which i absolutely agree. It lays the basis for why the rest of the bible was needed. [/quote]

I guess because it’s word of God and he wanted us to have it. I would have preferred a more direct approach.

770

[quote]pat wrote:

I guess because it’s word of God and he wanted us to have it. I would have preferred a more direct approach. [/quote]

Have you thought about the idea that the Bible’s ultimate purpose isn’t for us, but really for Him to clear his own name? (referring to the issue raised in the Garden of Eden)

771

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I guess because it’s word of God and he wanted us to have it. I would have preferred a more direct approach. [/quote]

Have you thought about the idea that the Bible’s ultimate purpose isn’t for us, but really for Him to clear his own name? (referring to the issue raised in the Garden of Eden)[/quote]

I haven’t could you elaborate on what you mean? I like to hear your thought process here.

772

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I guess because it’s word of God and he wanted us to have it. I would have preferred a more direct approach. [/quote]

Have you thought about the idea that the Bible’s ultimate purpose isn’t for us, but really for Him to clear his own name? (referring to the issue raised in the Garden of Eden)[/quote]

I haven’t could you elaborate on what you mean? I like to hear your thought process here.[/quote]

Sure, the Bible starts out with the creation of the world, and then creation of man and then woman. God gave free will to them, but made the one command that man can’t eat of the tree of knowledge good and bad, and if they did they would die.

there was an angel in heaven that talked to eve through a serpent and told her that she would not die, but that she would be like God if she ate from the tree. the first lie ever told.

So what was this really saying? This angel (known as Satan) made the claim that God was holding something good from man. That humans should be able to govern themselves, and not have to listen to the command(s) that God had set before them.

That original challenge was about God’s Right to Rule mankind.

This sets up for God to make things right by his first prophecy of the Bible. - Gen 3:15.

773

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I guess because it’s word of God and he wanted us to have it. I would have preferred a more direct approach. [/quote]

Have you thought about the idea that the Bible’s ultimate purpose isn’t for us, but really for Him to clear his own name? (referring to the issue raised in the Garden of Eden)[/quote]

I haven’t could you elaborate on what you mean? I like to hear your thought process here.[/quote]

Sure, the Bible starts out with the creation of the world, and then creation of man and then woman. God gave free will to them, but made the one command that man can’t eat of the tree of knowledge good and bad, and if they did they would die.

there was an angel in heaven that talked to eve through a serpent and told her that she would not die, but that she would be like God if she ate from the tree. the first lie ever told.

So what was this really saying? This angel (known as Satan) made the claim that God was holding something good from man. That humans should be able to govern themselves, and not have to listen to the command(s) that God had set before them.

That original challenge was about God’s Right to Rule mankind.

This sets up for God to make things right by his first prophecy of the Bible. - Gen 3:15.[/quote]

What I always get confused about is the role of Satan in this story. If God created everything, then he created Satan. Since Satan was an angel, he did not give him free will like he gave to humans. So God knew Satan would tell Adam and Eve about the fruit. Also, God would know about the rebellion he would lead and that he would eventually sentence him to hell.

Is this accurate?

774

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

What I always get confused about is the role of Satan in this story. If God created everything, then he created Satan. Since Satan was an angel, he did not give him free will like he gave to humans. So God knew Satan would tell Adam and Eve about the fruit. Also, God would know about the rebellion he would lead and that he would eventually sentence him to hell.

Is this accurate?[/quote]

God did create “Satan”. However, we have to make sure that some facts are straight. First, Satan is a title, not a name. It is a title that was given to the fallen angel after he sinned. It means Resister. God created the angel that later became Satan. See John 8:44.

Second, angels, just like all of God’s creation have free will. Remember the angels that rebelled before the flood that forsook their dwelling in heaven and came to earth. That was their choice. Not something foreordained.

Lastly, and this is a tough subject, but very explainable, is that there is no hell. (at least not in the commonly described sense) So Satan was not sentenced to it in that sense. He was, as Gen 3:15 brought out, sentenced to death.

775

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

What I always get confused about is the role of Satan in this story. If God created everything, then he created Satan. Since Satan was an angel, he did not give him free will like he gave to humans. So God knew Satan would tell Adam and Eve about the fruit. Also, God would know about the rebellion he would lead and that he would eventually sentence him to hell.

Is this accurate?[/quote]

God did create “Satan”. However, we have to make sure that some facts are straight. First, Satan is a title, not a name. It is a title that was given to the fallen angel after he sinned. It means Resister. God created the angel that later became Satan. See John 8:44.

Second, angels, just like all of God’s creation have free will. Remember the angels that rebelled before the flood that forsook their dwelling in heaven and came to earth. That was their choice. Not something foreordained.

Lastly, and this is a tough subject, but very explainable, is that there is no hell. (at least not in the commonly described sense) So Satan was not sentenced to it in that sense. He was, as Gen 3:15 brought out, sentenced to death.

[/quote]

Interesting.

776

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

What I always get confused about is the role of Satan in this story. If God created everything, then he created Satan. Since Satan was an angel, he did not give him free will like he gave to humans. So God knew Satan would tell Adam and Eve about the fruit. Also, God would know about the rebellion he would lead and that he would eventually sentence him to hell.

Is this accurate?[/quote]

As honest_lifter said, angels have free will as well as humans. The devil was an angel that became known as Satan, he earned that title (“slanderer”). We know that God couldn’t have created the devil as a wicked being because of scriptures such as Psalms 5:4 -

“For You are not a God that enjoys wickedness; nor shall evil dwell with You.”

Angels also have curiosity and emotions (1Peter 1:12, Luke 15:10) which is one of the reasons why some were able to become bad, go against their God given assignments and became “perverted” (like in the days before the flood).

777

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…how widespread is this phenomenon?

[/quote]

It’s not very common so what’s your point? There have been many bat shit crazy athiests in the world. Do they reflect you?
What the hell do you care what people discuss in there own homes? [/quote]

Pat, you seem like a reasonable guy, and if all Christians were like you we could all pretty much live in peace. As a libertarian, I don’t care if people home school their kids or what they discuss in their homes. However, the Dillahunty atheist site (yes, I’ve been their, not because I’m an atheist but because I consider myself an agnostic willing to look for answers) posted a video of a session of Congress where a representative stated that he didn’t believe in global warming based on the quote from the Bible that, after the flood, God promised that he would never attempt to destroy the earth again. The representative stated that he believed that the Bible was the literal and inerrant word of God. Based on the passage, the representative plainly stated that global warming was a non-issue because of the “promise” to never destroy the earth again. Now, I don’t want to turn this into a debate on environmental issues, and FWIW, I’m not 100% sold on the idea that global warming presents and immediate danger so don’t anyone go accusing me of being a leftist eco-terrorist. I raise this example only to show that a bat shit crazy fundamentalist was able to make it to Congress and he is apparently making policy based on a literal reading of the Old Testament. This concerns me, and unless you are a bat shit crazy fundamentalist, which from your posts you are clearly not, you should be concerned, too.

778

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Who is the one crying like a little brat, screaming and insulting people?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.[/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not crying or screaming here. And as far as insults go, I’m merely pointing out the obvious and enhancing how stupid you are. Not hard really.

779

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Who is the one crying like a little brat, screaming and insulting people?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.[/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not crying or screaming here. And as far as insults go, I’m merely pointing out the obvious and enhancing how stupid you are. Not hard really.[/quote]

The question I would ask is why God put you in a coma in the first place? This is the problem I have with these so-called miracle recovery stories. If God cured a person’s cancer, why did allow that person to get cancer in the first place? It’s an honest question - I’m not trying to start a fight here.

780

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Who is the one crying like a little brat, screaming and insulting people?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

This God of yours must not like you very much. Not only did he make you a retard, he put you in a coma.[/quote]
[/quote]

I’m not crying or screaming here. And as far as insults go, I’m merely pointing out the obvious and enhancing how stupid you are. Not hard really.[/quote]

The question I would ask is why God put you in a coma in the first place? This is the problem I have with these so-called miracle recovery stories. If God cured a person’s cancer, why did allow that person to get cancer in the first place? It’s an honest question - I’m not trying to start a fight here.
[/quote]

These sort of experiences are personal and dear to ones like this, and in that sense, I don’t like to dismiss their experiences completely.

But, there is a danger to peoples spirituality if they start going down this route (expecting miraculous intervention etc). You can easily become stumbled. As I have said before, bad things happen to good people. Think of all the things that Jacob in the bible had to put up with, despite him having God’s blessing:

-he worked for an unfair boss who didn’t pay him for what he’d earned
-his daughter was raped
-his sons mass murdered
-he was always “on the run”, he had to move to unfamiliar and dangerous territory
-he had a rival brother (who had the potential to kill him)
-he had extreme responsibility and pressure/stress

There could have been times where Jacob said, “why God, why? I thought that you cared?”. But as Ecclesiastes 9:11 says:

“Here is something else I have learned: The fastest runners and the greatest heroes don’t always win races and battles. Wisdom, intelligence, and skill don’t always make you healthy, rich, or popular. We each have our share of ‘bad luck’.”

Take for example, someone who thinks that God has selected them personally and is “communicating” with them. What if that person gets that involved and builds his “faith” purely on these “happenings” or belief…and THEN, he starts to QUESTION this? Then, he begins to realise that maybe God was NOT talking to him, or sending him signals. What do you think is likely going to happen to that person when this begins to happen (despite him doing many great and good things in Christianity)? Chances are, that person will feel discouraged, lack faith in anything now, and feel stupid/deceived…and good chances are, that person will give up belief/good works in the name of that belief. This is exactly what Satan (Gods enemy) wants to happen to people.

There is no need to believe, or depend on the notion, that God miraculously intervenes in every present day affair (unless it’s to further His future grand scheme of things)…in order to be a Christian. You can do good, preach, help others etc without having this dependence. Sure, pray for help, wisdom, the strength to cope etc, but don’t expect outright miracles.