This dude passes judgment on things he clearly does not understand or has any capability of understanding. He speaks of metaphysical precepts such as judgment and morality, well what is his basis for morality? What is a good act versus an evil act? What makes one good vs. the other evil. He thinks he is being all deep and critically thinking but isnâ??t. Heâ??s really going on decency and morality with out basing those concepts on anything. Further, heâ??s all over the map. Even if he were able to prove the bible were a fraud, that still does not prove that God does not exist.
The person who said atheism is intellectually lazy is dead on. An atheist has to either claim that they know everything, or that at least everything is knowable. Easy thing to say, impossible to prove. If you cannot know everything, you cannot know that God does not exist. Obviousness is not a requirement for the existance of God; which has been the typical argument against God’s existence.If God exists then why doesn’t he ________.
This poor evangelical he was arguing with was too constrained in his beliefs to argue correctly. He could have turned that shit around very easily, but he probably does not understand it all that well himself.
On what basis does an atheist determine morality? Or the better meta-ethical what is “good” and what is “evil”?
Assume there is no God and answer those questions. We can get to the rest once those questions are answered and not dodged as I can predict they will be.
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
No. I do not believe one would go to hell based solely on this precept. Again this is a misrepresentation of what the bible says. There are approximately 2.2 billion Christians in the world which leaves approx. 3.8 billion folks who are not. Not believe as Christians do does not condemn. If we are talking in purely New Testament terms, Jesus gave many ways to “know” him with out knowing him by name. Therefore, you can “know” Jesus with out ever having heard of Christ or Christianity. Just one example from the Gospels is “What ever you do the least of my people, that you do unto me”. So, for instance, if you take care of a downtrodden person, you are “knowing” Jesus without having to even have heard of the Bible.
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
I believe we’re saved through Christ. Though not everyone who claim Christ, will be saved. Anyways, I have no idea where you’d end up. Not my call. But, what matters it if Christian theology provides little to no salvation for the non-Christian? Atheism preaches the absence of any salvation, for anyone.[/quote]
…still the bible says that the one unforgivable sin the rejection of Christ as your saviour is, and those sinners go to hell. Atheism teaches nothing, it isn’t religion. Dividing people into those who believe like you, and those who don’t believe at all, making those non-believers effectively subhuman through dogma, is dangerous…
…every Abrahamic religion, more or les, does this. Could you believe what you believe if it didn’t make you special? I mean, suppose your faith taught that each and everyone goes to heaven whether you believe or not, would that make a difference to you?
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Which brings me to my biggest pet peeve with religious folk. Any religious folk who confuses thier beliefs with actual knowledge or knowing. Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.
V[/quote]
Demanding that someone else accept YOUR experience is certainly irrational and wrong. I completely concur. However, to exclude an experience because it doesn’t fit in
with your previous experiences is also irrational. And that’s my point. God may very well intervene in human affairs but we may not be designed to know it. We just can’t tell.
BTW, if my son did what you say and I was alive, I would shoot him myself. Seriously. I would weep like a baby and then shoot myself in the head. Luckily he is extremely moral and I can’t even imagine such a thing ever even entering his head.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Atheism does not allow for singular experiences. Atheism restricts knowledge to those concepts that are formed by comparing objects. For ex, the concept of ‘chair’ is formed from observing several very similar objects and tagging those objects with the word ‘chair’.
But then we run into difficulties with things like ‘justice’. Plato wrote a whole book trying to extract the concept from examples about cities (Republic).
God is a singular being. To know God is a singular event. If we restrict our knowledge to only those concepts attained by comparison, then that excludes God. But in my many years I’ve yet to see an acceptable argument for such exclusion.
That God has not chosen to speak to you, is sad.
God bless and Happy Hannukah![/quote]
…does the absence of belief in a god stop me from basking in the beauty of a glorious sunset? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from loving those close to me wholeheartedly? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from being kind to those who deserve it? No, it doesn’t…
…the absence of belief in a god does not stop me from being human, from being a good person to the best of my ability. It does not stop me from all of that because this is who i want to be without the threat of hell or the gift of heaven…
…has it ever occured to you that some people need speaking to, and some don’t?
[/quote]
You don’t need to meet Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins, or Mother Theresa either. I’m simply saying that religious experience is different than a common experience. Rejecting the first because it doesn’t fit the second is a sign of a closed mind.[/quote]
…what is rejected is not the experience, but the notion that it’s religious. When you experience something profound it’s normal to make sense of that experience by pouring it in a religious mold, making it palatable, but the experience itself isn’t explained by it…
…i’ve had profound experiences. Experiences that changed my outlook on life and reality, and i didn’t reject them. There was a lesson to be learned…
[/quote]
So, you are not rejecting the experience, only the interpretation of said experience. There was an Event. You experienced the event and immediately began the process of interpreting the event. In doing so, you filtered it through your individual world view, and then examined the pieces through the lenses of your various intelligences. In your case, your worldview filtered out most if not all of the elements that were of a religious or spiritual nature, and your intelligences then began to shape and interpret the rest into an understanding that would fit within your belief system. This is good. This is how it is supposed to work.[/quote]
…it doesn’t stop there. There is an event. There is acceptance of that event. Nothing more is needed, period…
…it’s not just Islam, it’s the religions of Abraham; it’s any religion that makes anyone that is not a member of that religion a lesser person i have a problem with. Plus, and that’s a pet peeve of mine, religious beliefs are essentially illogical. It still fascinates me though, how people can maintain such beliefs regardless of logic…
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
No. I do not believe one would go to hell based solely on this precept. Again this is a misrepresentation of what the bible says. There are approximately 2.2 billion Christians in the world which leaves approx. 3.8 billion folks who are not. Not believe as Christians do does not condemn. If we are talking in purely New Testament terms, Jesus gave many ways to “know” him with out knowing him by name. Therefore, you can “know” Jesus with out ever having heard of Christ or Christianity. Just one example from the Gospels is “What ever you do the least of my people, that you do unto me”. So, for instance, if you take care of a downtrodden person, you are “knowing” Jesus without having to even have heard of the Bible.[/quote]
…i’m Roman Catholic. I’ve been baptised and went to communion. I’ve even been an altar boy a couple of times. I know the message and i reject Christ as my saviour. I find the notion of needing to be saved ridiculous, and i object against being labeled a sinner out of principle…
…this all is true btw. Do i go to hell if i die in my sleep tonight?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…[/quote]
Or you describing religious people, or, you Atheists (the ‘brights,’ as you sometimes refer to yourselves?
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.
V[/quote]
Sorry, but Atheists take the cake when it comes to dehumanizing other human beings.
[/quote]
What? That doesn’t even make sense, where did I say anything about dehumanizing other humans? Also please provide me with some examples if you are going to make a claim like that. Or are you just speaking in generalities?
V[/quote]
Provide examples? We’re all familiar with the ‘brainwashed, indoctrinated, child brainwashing/indoctrinating, irrational, dangerous, sheeple,’ stuff.[/quote]
That is not “dehumanizing” that is recognizing them for what they are.
The person who said atheism is intellectually lazy is dead on. An atheist has to either claim that they know everything, or that at least everything is knowable. Easy thing to say, impossible to prove. If you cannot know everything, you cannot know that God does not exist. Obviousness is not a requirement for the existance of God; which has been the typical argument against God’s existence.If God exists then why doesn’t he ________.
[/quote]
Intellectually lazy is harsh.
Pookie converted me from atheism/agnosticism to apatheism. I do not know if there is a god or gods, nor do I care. Also, if gods should exist I do not see any evidence that they care.
The person who said atheism is intellectually lazy is dead on. An atheist has to either claim that they know everything, or that at least everything is knowable. Easy thing to say, impossible to prove. If you cannot know everything, you cannot know that God does not exist. Obviousness is not a requirement for the existance of God; which has been the typical argument against God’s existence.If God exists then why doesn’t he ________.
[/quote]
Intellectually lazy is harsh.
Pookie converted me from atheism/agnosticism to apatheism. I do not know if there is a god or gods, nor do I care. Also, if gods should exist I do not see any evidence that they care.
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
No. I do not believe one would go to hell based solely on this precept. Again this is a misrepresentation of what the bible says. There are approximately 2.2 billion Christians in the world which leaves approx. 3.8 billion folks who are not. Not believe as Christians do does not condemn. If we are talking in purely New Testament terms, Jesus gave many ways to “know” him with out knowing him by name. Therefore, you can “know” Jesus with out ever having heard of Christ or Christianity. Just one example from the Gospels is “What ever you do the least of my people, that you do unto me”. So, for instance, if you take care of a downtrodden person, you are “knowing” Jesus without having to even have heard of the Bible.[/quote]
…i’m Roman Catholic. I’ve been baptised and went to communion. I’ve even been an altar boy a couple of times. I know the message and i reject Christ as my saviour. I find the notion of needing to be saved ridiculous, and i object against being labeled a sinner out of principle…
…this all is true btw. Do i go to hell if i die in my sleep tonight?[/quote]
If you were really raised Roman Catholic and knew anything about it then you would also know that “accepting Christ as your saviour” and/or being “saved” are not tenants of the apostolic tradition.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Dividing people into those who believe like you, and those who don’t believe at all, making those non-believers effectively subhuman through dogma, is dangerous…
[/quote]
Hate to break it to you, but you’re doing exactly what you despise. You posted a thread about us, and our dangerous beliefs. You called us out, dividing us out from the rest of you. You basically said, “Those people and their beliefs? Dangerous!”
So, let’s recap. We’re sheeple. We’re irrational. We’re brainwashed/brainwashers. And, and, we’re dangerous (your contribution). Hmmm. Stop belittling me! You make me feel less human than you! And you never know if some of your compatriots might decide violence is justified in wiping out an irrational, dangerous, brainwashing threat.
[quote]sloth wrote:
Provide examples? We’re all familiar with the ‘brainwashed, indoctrinated, child brainwashing/indoctrinating, irrational, dangerous, sheeple,’ stuff.
orion wrote:
That is not “dehumanizing” that is recognizing them for what they are.
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
I believe we’re saved through Christ. Though not everyone who claim Christ, will be saved. Anyways, I have no idea where you’d end up. Not my call. But, what matters it if Christian theology provides little to no salvation for the non-Christian? Atheism preaches the absence of any salvation, for anyone.[/quote]
…still the bible says that the one unforgivable sin the rejection of Christ as your saviour is, and those sinners go to hell. Atheism teaches nothing, it isn’t religion. Dividing people into those who believe like you, and those who don’t believe at all, making those non-believers effectively subhuman through dogma, is dangerous…
…every Abrahamic religion, more or les, does this. Could you believe what you believe if it didn’t make you special? I mean, suppose your faith taught that each and everyone goes to heaven whether you believe or not, would that make a difference to you?
[/quote]
“…still the bible says that the one unforgivable sin the rejection of Christ as your saviour is, and those sinners go to hell.”
No, it does not. No where does it say that as a matter of fact it says the opposite.
[quote]asusvenus wrote:
I wonder when this thread will derail into a mudthrowing thread of belivers Vs atheists. I know it’ll be fun to read it.
Oh, calling atheists intellectually lazy is kinda ironic tbh. If i wanted to, I could just generalize believers to be just as intellectualy lazy. [/quote]
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
No. I do not believe one would go to hell based solely on this precept. Again this is a misrepresentation of what the bible says. There are approximately 2.2 billion Christians in the world which leaves approx. 3.8 billion folks who are not. Not believe as Christians do does not condemn. If we are talking in purely New Testament terms, Jesus gave many ways to “know” him with out knowing him by name. Therefore, you can “know” Jesus with out ever having heard of Christ or Christianity. Just one example from the Gospels is “What ever you do the least of my people, that you do unto me”. So, for instance, if you take care of a downtrodden person, you are “knowing” Jesus without having to even have heard of the Bible.[/quote]
…i’m Roman Catholic. I’ve been baptised and went to communion. I’ve even been an altar boy a couple of times. I know the message and i reject Christ as my saviour. I find the notion of needing to be saved ridiculous, and i object against being labeled a sinner out of principle…
…this all is true btw. Do i go to hell if i die in my sleep tonight?[/quote]
If you were really raised Roman Catholic and knew anything about it then you would also know that “accepting Christ as your saviour” and/or being “saved” are not tenants of the apostolic tradition.
Second, do you want to go to hell?[/quote]
…but it doesn’t matter what i do or do not believe. It matters what others believe…
…i don’t entertain any beliefs regarding heaven or hell so going to an imaginary place after i die is inconsequential to me…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Dividing people into those who believe like you, and those who don’t believe at all, making those non-believers effectively subhuman through dogma, is dangerous…
[/quote]
Hate to break it to you, but you’re doing exactly what you despise. You posted a thread about us, and our dangerous beliefs. You called us out, dividing us out from the rest of you. You basically said, “Those people and their beliefs? Dangerous!”
So, let’s recap. We’re sheeple. We’re irrational. We’re brainwashed/brainwashers. And, and, we’re dangerous (your contribution). Hmmm. Stop belittling me! You make me feel less human than you! And you never know if some of your compatriots might decide violence is justified in wiping out an irrational, dangerous, brainwashing threat.[/quote]
…i cannot judge you based on beliefs i don’t have. I may judge you for the beliefs you have if those beliefs interfere with me personally. Ofcourse, between us this isn’t the case, and therefore none of this is relevant if it was limited to the two of us. But we are faced with religious zeal that may very well lead to dire consequences. Perhaps not from the Christian contingent on this planet, but beliefs are belief aren’t they?
[quote]sloth wrote:
Provide examples? We’re all familiar with the ‘brainwashed, indoctrinated, child brainwashing/indoctrinating, irrational, dangerous, sheeple,’ stuff.
orion wrote:
That is not “dehumanizing” that is recognizing them for what they are.
…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]
What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]
…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]
I believe we’re saved through Christ. Though not everyone who claim Christ, will be saved. Anyways, I have no idea where you’d end up. Not my call. But, what matters it if Christian theology provides little to no salvation for the non-Christian? Atheism preaches the absence of any salvation, for anyone.[/quote]
…still the bible says that the one unforgivable sin the rejection of Christ as your saviour is, and those sinners go to hell. Atheism teaches nothing, it isn’t religion. Dividing people into those who believe like you, and those who don’t believe at all, making those non-believers effectively subhuman through dogma, is dangerous…
…every Abrahamic religion, more or les, does this. Could you believe what you believe if it didn’t make you special? I mean, suppose your faith taught that each and everyone goes to heaven whether you believe or not, would that make a difference to you?
[/quote]
“…still the bible says that the one unforgivable sin the rejection of Christ as your saviour is, and those sinners go to hell.”
No, it does not. No where does it say that as a matter of fact it says the opposite.[/quote]
…this site is pretty clear on the subject. Do you have something else to read for me on the subject?