About Belief, Religion and God

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:
wall of text
[/quote]

JEATON, i can’t read what you read due to the lenght and especially the formatting of your post…[/quote]

Let me sum it up for you. God or spirit gets broader and deeper as you develop. The meaning and interpretation changes because your perspective and altitude changes.
Unfortunately, I do not have the means to write that in crayon for you. ;)[/quote]

I think his point was maybe to mix in some spacing between paragraphs, because it is a difficult read.[/quote]

Point made. Corrections made.
If this was the case Ephrem, I apologize. It was a lot of territory to cover and I was trying to condense it as much as possible but still get the theme across.

[quote]jnd wrote:
Let me get this straight- you are using Galileo as an example where you are arguing for the existence of God/religion???

That is too fucking funny for words.

jnd[/quote]

It is funny to use a devout Catholic as an example when you are arguing for the existence of God/religion???

[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:

[quote]jnd wrote:
Let me get this straight- you are using Galileo as an example where you are arguing for the existence of God/religion???

That is too fucking funny for words.

jnd[/quote]

It is funny to use a devout Catholic as an example when you are arguing for the existence of God/religion???
[/quote]

I believe he is saying this due to the problems Galileo had with the church due to his theory on the universe.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:
wall of text
[/quote]

JEATON, i can’t read what you read due to the lenght and especially the formatting of your post…[/quote]

Let me sum it up for you. God or spirit gets broader and deeper as you develop. The meaning and interpretation changes because your perspective and altitude changes.
Unfortunately, I do not have the means to write that in crayon for you. ;)[/quote]

I think his point was maybe to mix in some spacing between paragraphs, because it is a difficult read.[/quote]

Point made. Corrections made.
If this was the case Ephrem, I apologize. It was a lot of territory to cover and I was trying to condense it as much as possible but still get the theme across. [/quote]

Thanks! It was a much easier read, I agree with the idea of a higher being. But as to what the higher being is or better yet what it is I believe takes on so many different ideas.

As it will continue to be. you are constantly progressing, evolving. Not only in your worldview, but also in your states, levels and lines. Lines being the important here as you have over twelve lines of intelligence developing, and each individual level has an effect

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Atheism does not allow for singular experiences. Atheism restricts knowledge to those concepts that are formed by comparing objects. For ex, the concept of ‘chair’ is formed from observing several very similar objects and tagging those objects with the word ‘chair’.

But then we run into difficulties with things like ‘justice’. Plato wrote a whole book trying to extract the concept from examples about cities (Republic).

God is a singular being. To know God is a singular event. If we restrict our knowledge to only those concepts attained by comparison, then that excludes God. But in my many years I’ve yet to see an acceptable argument for such exclusion.

That God has not chosen to speak to you, is sad.

God bless and Happy Hannukah![/quote]

…does the absence of belief in a god stop me from basking in the beauty of a glorious sunset? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from loving those close to me wholeheartedly? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from being kind to those who deserve it? No, it doesn’t…

…the absence of belief in a god does not stop me from being human, from being a good person to the best of my ability. It does not stop me from all of that because this is who i want to be without the threat of hell or the gift of heaven…

…has it ever occured to you that some people need speaking to, and some don’t?
[/quote]

You don’t need to meet Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins, or Mother Theresa either. I’m simply saying that religious experience is different than a common experience. Rejecting the first because it doesn’t fit the second is a sign of a closed mind.[/quote]

…what is rejected is not the experience, but the notion that it’s religious. When you experience something profound it’s normal to make sense of that experience by pouring it in a religious mold, making it palatable, but the experience itself isn’t explained by it…

…i’ve had profound experiences. Experiences that changed my outlook on life and reality, and i didn’t reject them. There was a lesson to be learned…

[quote]JEATON wrote:
As it will continue to be. you are constantly progressing, evolving. Not only in your worldview, but also in your states, levels and lines. Lines being the important here as you have over twelve lines of intelligence developing, and each individual level has an effect [/quote]

…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Atheism does not allow for singular experiences. Atheism restricts knowledge to those concepts that are formed by comparing objects. For ex, the concept of ‘chair’ is formed from observing several very similar objects and tagging those objects with the word ‘chair’.

But then we run into difficulties with things like ‘justice’. Plato wrote a whole book trying to extract the concept from examples about cities (Republic).

God is a singular being. To know God is a singular event. If we restrict our knowledge to only those concepts attained by comparison, then that excludes God. But in my many years I’ve yet to see an acceptable argument for such exclusion.

That God has not chosen to speak to you, is sad.

God bless and Happy Hannukah![/quote]

…does the absence of belief in a god stop me from basking in the beauty of a glorious sunset? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from loving those close to me wholeheartedly? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from being kind to those who deserve it? No, it doesn’t…

…the absence of belief in a god does not stop me from being human, from being a good person to the best of my ability. It does not stop me from all of that because this is who i want to be without the threat of hell or the gift of heaven…

…has it ever occured to you that some people need speaking to, and some don’t?
[/quote]

You don’t need to meet Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins, or Mother Theresa either. I’m simply saying that religious experience is different than a common experience. Rejecting the first because it doesn’t fit the second is a sign of a closed mind.[/quote]

…what is rejected is not the experience, but the notion that it’s religious. When you experience something profound it’s normal to make sense of that experience by pouring it in a religious mold, making it palatable, but the experience itself isn’t explained by it…

…i’ve had profound experiences. Experiences that changed my outlook on life and reality, and i didn’t reject them. There was a lesson to be learned…

[/quote]

An atheist, by their own definitions, must reject any concept that is not formed by undergoing the process I previously described. My point is that such an exclusionary view is as bad and closeminded as that held by any religious nutcase.

May I provide an example? Many years ago, my wife was driving our van on a curvy road, with my young son (now at Navy) behind her in a carseat, me driving behind her. Suddenly the engine died and she pulled over. At the same time, another van shot across a curve where my wife would have been. She and my boy would have been t-boned.

Our van had never done that before and never did it again in over 6 years of ownership.

Coincidence or God? How would anyone ever know?

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:

[quote]jnd wrote:
Let me get this straight- you are using Galileo as an example where you are arguing for the existence of God/religion???

That is too fucking funny for words.

jnd[/quote]

It is funny to use a devout Catholic as an example when you are arguing for the existence of God/religion???
[/quote]

I believe he is saying this due to the problems Galileo had with the church due to his theory on the universe.[/quote]

BINGO! His “problems” were actually quite serious when he dared to disagree with the church, just ask Bruno.

jnd

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Atheism does not allow for singular experiences. Atheism restricts knowledge to those concepts that are formed by comparing objects. For ex, the concept of ‘chair’ is formed from observing several very similar objects and tagging those objects with the word ‘chair’.

But then we run into difficulties with things like ‘justice’. Plato wrote a whole book trying to extract the concept from examples about cities (Republic).

God is a singular being. To know God is a singular event. If we restrict our knowledge to only those concepts attained by comparison, then that excludes God. But in my many years I’ve yet to see an acceptable argument for such exclusion.

That God has not chosen to speak to you, is sad.

God bless and Happy Hannukah![/quote]

…does the absence of belief in a god stop me from basking in the beauty of a glorious sunset? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from loving those close to me wholeheartedly? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from being kind to those who deserve it? No, it doesn’t…

…the absence of belief in a god does not stop me from being human, from being a good person to the best of my ability. It does not stop me from all of that because this is who i want to be without the threat of hell or the gift of heaven…

…has it ever occured to you that some people need speaking to, and some don’t?
[/quote]

You don’t need to meet Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins, or Mother Theresa either. I’m simply saying that religious experience is different than a common experience. Rejecting the first because it doesn’t fit the second is a sign of a closed mind.[/quote]

…what is rejected is not the experience, but the notion that it’s religious. When you experience something profound it’s normal to make sense of that experience by pouring it in a religious mold, making it palatable, but the experience itself isn’t explained by it…

…i’ve had profound experiences. Experiences that changed my outlook on life and reality, and i didn’t reject them. There was a lesson to be learned…

[/quote]

An atheist, by their own definitions, must reject any concept that is not formed by undergoing the process I previously described. My point is that such an exclusionary view is as bad and closeminded as that held by any religious nutcase.

May I provide an example? Many years ago, my wife was driving our van on a curvy road, with my young son (now at Navy) behind her in a carseat, me driving behind her. Suddenly the engine died and she pulled over. At the same time, another van shot across a curve where my wife would have been. She and my boy would have been t-boned.

Our van had never done that before and never did it again in over 6 years of ownership.

Coincidence or God? How would anyone ever know?
[/quote]

You still don’t know. You may believe, but you can’t KNOW. At least not right now you can’t. Also what if your young son ends up becoming a great military leader who eventually takes over a failing United States and forms a dictatorship and to secure his seat of power decides his first few acts will be to nuke the hell out of a couple of countries to set an example? I mean would god be responsible for saving your sons life who could turn out to be the greatest killer in the history of the world? I’m not saying god did or didn’t I’m just saying you nor anyone KNOWS, anything about god.

V

Which brings me to my biggest pet peeve with religious folk. Any religious folk who confuses thier beliefs with actual knowledge or knowing. Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.

V

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…[/quote]

Are you describing religious people? Or, yourselves (the ‘brights’)

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.

V[/quote]

Sorry, but Atheists take the cake when it comes to dehumanizing other human beings.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…[/quote]

Or you describing religious people, or, you Atheists (the ‘brights,’ as you sometimes refer to yourselves?

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.

V[/quote]

Sorry, but Atheists take the cake when it comes to dehumanizing other human beings.
[/quote]

What? That doesn’t even make sense, where did I say anything about dehumanizing other humans? Also please provide me with some examples if you are going to make a claim like that. Or are you just speaking in generalities?

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…[/quote]

Or you describing religious people, or, you Atheists (the ‘brights,’ as you sometimes refer to yourselves?

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.

V[/quote]

Sorry, but Atheists take the cake when it comes to dehumanizing other human beings.
[/quote]

What? That doesn’t even make sense, where did I say anything about dehumanizing other humans? Also please provide me with some examples if you are going to make a claim like that. Or are you just speaking in generalities?

V[/quote]

Provide examples? We’re all familiar with the ‘brainwashed, indoctrinated, child brainwashing/indoctrinating, irrational, dangerous, sheeple,’ stuff.

…indeed, how would you ever know? It might comfort you, support certain warm fuzzies if you will, to believe God had a hand in this, but at the end of the day it was simply fortunate the car stalled when it did…

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…[/quote]

Or you describing religious people, or, you Atheists (the ‘brights,’ as you sometimes refer to yourselves?

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.

V[/quote]

Sorry, but Atheists take the cake when it comes to dehumanizing other human beings.
[/quote]

What? That doesn’t even make sense, where did I say anything about dehumanizing other humans? Also please provide me with some examples if you are going to make a claim like that. Or are you just speaking in generalities?

V[/quote]

Provide examples? We’re all familiar with the ‘brainwashed, indoctrinated, child brainwashing/indoctrinating, irrational, dangerous, sheeple,’ stuff.[/quote]

…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…and that wasn’t really the point the guy in the video was trying to make. Religion in itself is powerless, but it’s believers, who have a tendency to accept and attach value to their religion without critical thought, that use religion as a means to dehumanize and dominate people who don’t fit the mold, or simply believe otherwise…[/quote]

Or you describing religious people, or, you Atheists (the ‘brights,’ as you sometimes refer to yourselves?

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Believe anything you want, but if you walk around talking and acting like you know something about god, you are now an irrational dangerous person. You may never physically harm another human being, but your mere existance and support of other irrational people is dangerous to the human race.

V[/quote]

Sorry, but Atheists take the cake when it comes to dehumanizing other human beings.
[/quote]

What? That doesn’t even make sense, where did I say anything about dehumanizing other humans? Also please provide me with some examples if you are going to make a claim like that. Or are you just speaking in generalities?

V[/quote]

Provide examples? We’re all familiar with the ‘brainwashed, indoctrinated, child brainwashing/indoctrinating, irrational, dangerous, sheeple,’ stuff.[/quote]

…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]

What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]

What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]

…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Atheism does not allow for singular experiences. Atheism restricts knowledge to those concepts that are formed by comparing objects. For ex, the concept of ‘chair’ is formed from observing several very similar objects and tagging those objects with the word ‘chair’.

But then we run into difficulties with things like ‘justice’. Plato wrote a whole book trying to extract the concept from examples about cities (Republic).

God is a singular being. To know God is a singular event. If we restrict our knowledge to only those concepts attained by comparison, then that excludes God. But in my many years I’ve yet to see an acceptable argument for such exclusion.

That God has not chosen to speak to you, is sad.

God bless and Happy Hannukah![/quote]

…does the absence of belief in a god stop me from basking in the beauty of a glorious sunset? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from loving those close to me wholeheartedly? No, it doesn’t. Does the absence of belief in a god stop me from being kind to those who deserve it? No, it doesn’t…

…the absence of belief in a god does not stop me from being human, from being a good person to the best of my ability. It does not stop me from all of that because this is who i want to be without the threat of hell or the gift of heaven…

…has it ever occured to you that some people need speaking to, and some don’t?
[/quote]

You don’t need to meet Ayn Rand, Richard Dawkins, or Mother Theresa either. I’m simply saying that religious experience is different than a common experience. Rejecting the first because it doesn’t fit the second is a sign of a closed mind.[/quote]

…what is rejected is not the experience, but the notion that it’s religious. When you experience something profound it’s normal to make sense of that experience by pouring it in a religious mold, making it palatable, but the experience itself isn’t explained by it…

…i’ve had profound experiences. Experiences that changed my outlook on life and reality, and i didn’t reject them. There was a lesson to be learned…

[/quote]
So, you are not rejecting the experience, only the interpretation of said experience. There was an Event. You experienced the event and immediately began the process of interpreting the event. In doing so, you filtered it through your individual world view, and then examined the pieces through the lenses of your various intelligences. In your case, your worldview filtered out most if not all of the elements that were of a religious or spiritual nature, and your intelligences then began to shape and interpret the rest into an understanding that would fit within your belief system.
This is good. This is how it is supposed to work.

It appears to me that maybe your problem is not with religion in general, but a specific manifestation of religious belief. In your case, you have a problem with fundamental, mythic, ethnocentric, absolutist religion. I would guess in your case it is Islam. I am with you. I would ask if you also have a problem with Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism, Shinto, Taoism, Confucianism, etc. I have noticed that, at least in the U.S. to more contemplative a religion is, the less polarizing it is. I would remind you that there is such a thing as Contemplative Christianity. I would probably fit this description. Actually, I have a sneaky suspicion that far more Americans would truly fall in this category than is suspected. To give a simple example, the Baptist Church which I attend believes that the Bible is the absolute literal word of God. If it says the world was made in 7 days then it was. Adam and Eve were the first residents and we all came from them. Creationism. And so on.
However, in the most private of settings, if they trust you, most will admit that these stories are myth and allegory, not to be taken as literal fact.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…did you watch the youtube vid from my first post? Do you have anything to say about that?
[/quote]

What’s to say? It was silly. I couldn’t get past him answering his own questions and hanging up when the guy wanted to answer for himself.[/quote]

…do you believe i will go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour?[/quote]

I believe we’re saved through Christ. Though not everyone who claim Christ, will be saved. Anyways, I have no idea where you’d end up. Not my call. But, what matters it if Christian theology provides little to no salvation for the non-Christian? Atheism preaches the absence of any salvation, for anyone.