About Belief, Religion and God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
441

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Uh, well that’s rather arbitrary but ok.[/quote]

…yes, it is arbitrary, but i don’t know of any other way to come to real understanding of what is right and what is wrong if it’s not through trial and error. A normal, levelheaded person should be able to grasp the obvious, but in those cases where the line between right and wrong is diffuse, you can’t really know where you stand unless you made a choice…
[/quote]

Right and wrong are not arbitrary. You are looking at behaviors as they partain to their effects on other people. But what does “right” actually mean? What does “wrong” actually mean? Not what does it look like when acted upon, but what does it actually mean…Their words we use, but understand little.[/quote]

…just like morality is relative, right and wrong are arbitrary. What is right and what is wrong is taught to us by our parents; it’s a concept designed to maintain a base level of civility. Killing other humans is wrong, except in war and self defense. Cannabalism is wrong, except when the flesh of already dead humans is the only thing to eat when you’re starving…

…so basically: what is right is what good for the tribe, and what is wrong is what has negative consequences for the tribe. “Tribe” in this case is family, work, country whatever…

442

[quote]pat wrote:
Hitler was not catholic, he was an occultist.
[/quote]

No, he was not an occultist. He may not have attended the church but one does not need to to be religious or Christian.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

443

…please, can we leave Hitler out of this topic for once?

444

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…please, can we leave Hitler out of this topic for once?[/quote]

Why don’t we do one better and let this thread die?

Everyone is clear on what you and Pat believe.

445

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…please, can we leave Hitler out of this topic for once?[/quote]

Why don’t we do one better and let this thread die?

Everyone is clear on what you and Pat believe.[/quote]

…nah, i want this thread to become a repository for anything atheist, science, evolution etc…

446

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…that’s a pity Pat, because it does explain where chaos comes from. So do watch it, it’s only an hour or so…[/quote]

I don’t have an hour to give for something I don’t give a fuck about.

Why don’t you give me the 30 second version. What is the origin of all things according to chaos theory?

447

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hitler was not catholic, he was an occultist.
[/quote]

No, he was not an occultist. He may not have attended the church but one does not need to to be religious or Christian.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm[/quote]

Fine he dabbled in occultism, and that proves there is no God?

http://stargods.org/Nazis_and_the_Occult.html

Further, if he is out of communion with the church he cannot call himself christian…Particularly problematic since he fried about 3 million Catholics in those ovens of his.

448

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Uh, well that’s rather arbitrary but ok.[/quote]

…yes, it is arbitrary, but i don’t know of any other way to come to real understanding of what is right and what is wrong if it’s not through trial and error. A normal, levelheaded person should be able to grasp the obvious, but in those cases where the line between right and wrong is diffuse, you can’t really know where you stand unless you made a choice…
[/quote]

Right and wrong are not arbitrary. You are looking at behaviors as they partain to their effects on other people. But what does “right” actually mean? What does “wrong” actually mean? Not what does it look like when acted upon, but what does it actually mean…Their words we use, but understand little.[/quote]

…just like morality is relative, right and wrong are arbitrary. What is right and what is wrong is taught to us by our parents; it’s a concept designed to maintain a base level of civility. Killing other humans is wrong, except in war and self defense. Cannabalism is wrong, except when the flesh of already dead humans is the only thing to eat when you’re starving…

…so basically: what is right is what good for the tribe, and what is wrong is what has negative consequences for the tribe. “Tribe” in this case is family, work, country whatever…
[/quote]

That is called utilitarianism. A good act is one which is beneficial to the most people despite what it does to the minority. Hitler was a utilitarian. He thought getting rid of a few undesirables would benefit the world at large. However, it is unlikely that anyone considers his actions “right” even if they would have been beneficial to greater society. So no morality is not relative. Things are good or bad, right or wrong, period. Cannabalism isn’t bad if you need to survive, but it is bad to kill someone just to eat them.
Let’s take an example we can all agree on, is there ever a circumstance where raping a baby could be a “good” act? If morality is relative, such a scenario is possible. But it is not, so IT is not.

449

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…that’s a pity Pat, because it does explain where chaos comes from. So do watch it, it’s only an hour or so…[/quote]

I don’t have an hour to give for something I don’t give a fuck about.

Why don’t you give me the 30 second version. What is the origin of all things according to chaos theory?[/quote]

…that i cannot do Pat, because it doesn’t explain the origin of all things…

450

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Uh, well that’s rather arbitrary but ok.[/quote]

…yes, it is arbitrary, but i don’t know of any other way to come to real understanding of what is right and what is wrong if it’s not through trial and error. A normal, levelheaded person should be able to grasp the obvious, but in those cases where the line between right and wrong is diffuse, you can’t really know where you stand unless you made a choice…
[/quote]

Right and wrong are not arbitrary. You are looking at behaviors as they partain to their effects on other people. But what does “right” actually mean? What does “wrong” actually mean? Not what does it look like when acted upon, but what does it actually mean…Their words we use, but understand little.[/quote]

…just like morality is relative, right and wrong are arbitrary. What is right and what is wrong is taught to us by our parents; it’s a concept designed to maintain a base level of civility. Killing other humans is wrong, except in war and self defense. Cannabalism is wrong, except when the flesh of already dead humans is the only thing to eat when you’re starving…

…so basically: what is right is what good for the tribe, and what is wrong is what has negative consequences for the tribe. “Tribe” in this case is family, work, country whatever…
[/quote]

That is called utilitarianism. A good act is one which is beneficial to the most people despite what it does to the minority. Hitler was a utilitarian. He thought getting rid of a few undesirables would benefit the world at large. However, it is unlikely that anyone considers his actions “right” even if they would have been beneficial to greater society. So no morality is not relative. Things are good or bad, right or wrong, period. Cannabalism isn’t bad if you need to survive, but it is bad to kill someone just to eat them.
Let’s take an example we can all agree on, is there ever a circumstance where raping a baby could be a “good” act? If morality is relative, such a scenario is possible. But it is not, so IT is not. [/quote]

…i agree with you that when children are involved things become right and wrong instantly, there can be no discussion about that…

…we all do, or have done, things we know are wrong but justify that behaviour in some way. The mass murder of Jews by the nazi’s was wrong, but so was the carpet bombing of Dresden, yet that atrocity was justifiable somehow…

…i believe slavery is wrong, yet there was a time in history that slavery was perfectly fine, especially in biblical times. How do you justify that? When your divine moral yardstick says it’s a sin to kill another human being, but orders his believers to kill their enemies, how do you justify that?

…there is a wide spectrum where on one end there is wrong and on the other there is right. In the middle lies a huge grey area where things aren’t clear. It’s this grey area we have to deal with every day, and how we deal with this grey area is something we have to decide for ourselves…

451

[quote]pat wrote:
Hitler was not catholic, he was an occultist. Just because his mother took him to a Catholic church did not make him catholic later in life. Besides that, if he were baptized Catholic, he was excommunicated based on his actions.
Besides, Stalin made him look like a chior boy, he was raised Catholic too, but performed as an atheist, whose goal was to purge the world disease of religion. So you could say in sense, you agree with him, the world would be better off without relgion. Nobody did more to forward their cause, except for maybe Mao. He was pretty nasty too. But keep in mind these people could not act alone, thousands of like minded people carried out their whims. I pretty sure very few of those people who were burning churches and shoot Catholic School children were people of religion.[/quote]

  1. Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

  2. As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monasteryâ??s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

  3. Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

  4. As a young man he was confirmed as a â??soldier of Christ.â?? His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: â??I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.â?? -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

  5. Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and â??avenging for Godâ?? in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Also to clarify, only ONE member of the SS was ever excommunicated, and to be fair he did marry a Protestant whore.

  6. Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: â??The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgment of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.â?? Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

  7. Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitlerâ??s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send â??warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with â??fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.â?? (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitlerâ??s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

  1. Due to Hitlerâ??s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings.

Also:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, Godâ??s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justiceâ?¦ And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”

â??Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

With regards to Stalin, don’t make me laugh. The Vatican sucked his dick dry to make sure they could maintain control of the masses and in return they made their sheep praise him. Stalin may have been one evil son of a bitch, but the people who enabled him should be held to account as well.

452

Sapolsky spoke about the uniqueness of humans in relation to the rest of the animal world. A few of the topics he spoke on include aggression, theory of mind, the golden rule and pleasure.

A TED talk on the human condition. Skip to 4.55 minute mark for the lecture.

453

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hitler was not catholic, he was an occultist. Just because his mother took him to a Catholic church did not make him catholic later in life. Besides that, if he were baptized Catholic, he was excommunicated based on his actions.
Besides, Stalin made him look like a chior boy, he was raised Catholic too, but performed as an atheist, whose goal was to purge the world disease of religion. So you could say in sense, you agree with him, the world would be better off without relgion. Nobody did more to forward their cause, except for maybe Mao. He was pretty nasty too. But keep in mind these people could not act alone, thousands of like minded people carried out their whims. I pretty sure very few of those people who were burning churches and shoot Catholic School children were people of religion.[/quote]

  1. Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

  2. As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monasteryâ??s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

  3. Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

  4. As a young man he was confirmed as a â??soldier of Christ.â?? His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: â??I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.â?? -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

  5. Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and â??avenging for Godâ?? in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Also to clarify, only ONE member of the SS was ever excommunicated, and to be fair he did marry a Protestant whore.

  6. Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: â??The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgment of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.â?? Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

  7. Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitlerâ??s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send â??warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with â??fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.â?? (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitlerâ??s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

  1. Due to Hitlerâ??s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings.

Also:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, Godâ??s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justiceâ?¦ And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”

â??Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

With regards to Stalin, don’t make me laugh. The Vatican sucked his dick dry to make sure they could maintain control of the masses and in return they made their sheep praise him. Stalin may have been one evil son of a bitch, but the people who enabled him should be held to account as well.[/quote]

You don’t understand how the church works, you don’t get excommunicated, you excommunicate yourself by your actions. Hitler killed 3 million Catholics as well as regularly murder Catholic clergy. I seriously doubt with those hard, cold facts you can call him Catholic…He was of Jewish heritage too, yet he killed 6 million of them.

Stalin’s mission was to eradicate the world or the ‘disease of religion’. the vatican had no love for the man ,nor did they for the nazi’s or anybody else.

Conspiracy revisionist history is not serving you well. If anything you think more like these folks than I do, being a utilitarian and your wish to rid the world of religion.

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius.php

454

[quote]Makavali wrote:

With regards to Stalin, don’t make me laugh. The Vatican sucked his dick dry to make sure they could maintain control of the masses and in return they made their sheep praise him. Stalin may have been one evil son of a bitch, but the people who enabled him should be held to account as well.[/quote]

You mean all the atheists who carried out his plans and heralded him to power…I couldn’t agree more.

455

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i agree with you that when children are involved things become right and wrong instantly, there can be no discussion about that…

[/quote]

Stop there and dwell on that…Why is it wrong?

456

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Hitler was not catholic, he was an occultist. Just because his mother took him to a Catholic church did not make him catholic later in life. Besides that, if he were baptized Catholic, he was excommunicated based on his actions.
Besides, Stalin made him look like a chior boy, he was raised Catholic too, but performed as an atheist, whose goal was to purge the world disease of religion. So you could say in sense, you agree with him, the world would be better off without relgion. Nobody did more to forward their cause, except for maybe Mao. He was pretty nasty too. But keep in mind these people could not act alone, thousands of like minded people carried out their whims. I pretty sure very few of those people who were burning churches and shoot Catholic School children were people of religion.[/quote]

  1. Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

  2. As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery�¢??s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

  3. Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

  4. As a young man he was confirmed as a �¢??soldier of Christ.�¢?? His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: �¢??I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.�¢?? -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

  5. Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and �¢??avenging for God�¢?? in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Also to clarify, only ONE member of the SS was ever excommunicated, and to be fair he did marry a Protestant whore.

  6. Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: �¢??The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgment of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.�¢?? Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

  7. Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler�¢??s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send �¢??warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with �¢??fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.�¢?? (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler�¢??s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

  1. Due to Hitler�¢??s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings.

Also:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, GodÃ?¢??s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justiceÃ?¢?Ã?¦ And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”

�¢??Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

With regards to Stalin, don’t make me laugh. The Vatican sucked his dick dry to make sure they could maintain control of the masses and in return they made their sheep praise him. Stalin may have been one evil son of a bitch, but the people who enabled him should be held to account as well.[/quote]

More links for you:

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius.php?id=2

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=0508-bemis

457

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i agree with you that when children are involved things become right and wrong instantly, there can be no discussion about that…

[/quote]

Stop there and dwell on that…Why is it wrong?[/quote]

…a child is innocent and defenseless. It can’t consent to something it does not yet understand. Children are impressionable and easy to take advantage of. These are reasons why i say that anything that is done to the detriment of children is wrong…

458

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i agree with you that when children are involved things become right and wrong instantly, there can be no discussion about that…

[/quote]

Stop there and dwell on that…Why is it wrong?[/quote]

…a child is innocent and defenseless. It can’t consent to something it does not yet understand. Children are impressionable and easy to take advantage of. These are reasons why i say that anything that is done to the detriment of children is wrong…

[/quote]

So if something is innocent and defenseless it’s wrong to hurt it? What if society believes it’s ok to hurt it?

459

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i agree with you that when children are involved things become right and wrong instantly, there can be no discussion about that…

[/quote]

Stop there and dwell on that…Why is it wrong?[/quote]

…a child is innocent and defenseless. It can’t consent to something it does not yet understand. Children are impressionable and easy to take advantage of. These are reasons why i say that anything that is done to the detriment of children is wrong…

[/quote]

So if something is innocent and defenseless it’s wrong to hurt it? What if society believes it’s ok to hurt it? [/quote]

…like killing every first born baby boy? Suppose i wake up 2000 years in the past and find myself in a society that thinks it’s okay to do that to babies, even then i won’t change my mind. Altough there is an overlap with societies morals and my own, that doesn’t mean i adopt a set of morals i don’t believe in even if society says otherwise…

…on a whole we, as a society, decide what is right and wrong, but that doesn’t mean you must follow suit if you disagree. Perhaps you prefer to be told what is right and wrong. Perhaps you find it difficult to conceptualize your own set of morals and need an outside source for guidance. I don’t know if that is true, but what is so odd, or difficult, about developing your own system of morality?

460

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i agree with you that when children are involved things become right and wrong instantly, there can be no discussion about that…

[/quote]

Stop there and dwell on that…Why is it wrong?[/quote]

…a child is innocent and defenseless. It can’t consent to something it does not yet understand. Children are impressionable and easy to take advantage of. These are reasons why i say that anything that is done to the detriment of children is wrong…

[/quote]

So if something is innocent and defenseless it’s wrong to hurt it? What if society believes it’s ok to hurt it? [/quote]

…like killing every first born baby boy? Suppose i wake up 2000 years in the past and find myself in a society that thinks it’s okay to do that to babies, even then i won’t change my mind. Altough there is an overlap with societies morals and my own, that doesn’t mean i adopt a set of morals i don’t believe in even if society says otherwise…

…on a whole we, as a society, decide what is right and wrong, but that doesn’t mean you must follow suit if you disagree. Perhaps you prefer to be told what is right and wrong. Perhaps you find it difficult to conceptualize your own set of morals and need an outside source for guidance. I don’t know if that is true, but what is so odd, or difficult, about developing your own system of morality?
[/quote]

You see, it is not arbitrary, despite the belief of the public. We have some sense of what right and wrong is even if we don’t know what it is. Hurting a child is wrong whether it’s okay with society or not. This is an exercise in meta-ethics. Meta-ethics is a very difficult concept whether you are religious or not. Meta-ethics demands the definition of words “right”, “Wrong”, “good”, “evil”, etc. I usually think of them in secular terms because it demands more thought. But in the end it rolls up, the concepts once defined, then require origin.