About Belief, Religion and God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
461

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So if something is innocent and defenseless it’s wrong to hurt it? What if society believes it’s ok to hurt it? [/quote]

…like killing every first born baby boy? Suppose i wake up 2000 years in the past and find myself in a society that thinks it’s okay to do that to babies, even then i won’t change my mind. Altough there is an overlap with societies morals and my own, that doesn’t mean i adopt a set of morals i don’t believe in even if society says otherwise…

…on a whole we, as a society, decide what is right and wrong, but that doesn’t mean you must follow suit if you disagree. Perhaps you prefer to be told what is right and wrong. Perhaps you find it difficult to conceptualize your own set of morals and need an outside source for guidance. I don’t know if that is true, but what is so odd, or difficult, about developing your own system of morality?
[/quote]

You see, it is not arbitrary, despite the belief of the public. We have some sense of what right and wrong is even if we don’t know what it is. Hurting a child is wrong whether it’s okay with society or not. This is an exercise in meta-ethics. Meta-ethics is a very difficult concept whether you are religious or not. Meta-ethics demands the definition of words “right”, “Wrong”, “good”, “evil”, etc. I usually think of them in secular terms because it demands more thought. But in the end it rolls up, the concepts once defined, then require origin. [/quote]

…i don’t agree. If anything, it’s evolutionary. Our one biological purpose is to procreate, and to ensure the tribe’s existence, you protect your offspring. It’s a biological imperative. We are nothing more than a species of animals that evolved an unique set of abilities; there’s nothing meta- about us…

462

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i don’t agree. If anything, it’s evolutionary. Our one biological purpose is to procreate, and to ensure the tribe’s existence, you protect your offspring. It’s a biological imperative. We are nothing more than a species of animals that evolved an unique set of abilities; there’s nothing meta- about us…
[/quote]

Don’t look now, but you just expressed a meta-physical construct. Metaphysics is all around us, we literally cannot function with out it. Theory, math, ideas, laws, etc. None of this shit is physcial, but we mold our physical world around our metaphysical revelations. Can you build a chair with out first having an idea of what a chair should look like?
This all roles back to Plato’s Forms…

This discussion is metaphysical, you have to think it before you say it.

463

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i don’t agree. If anything, it’s evolutionary. Our one biological purpose is to procreate, and to ensure the tribe’s existence, you protect your offspring. It’s a biological imperative. We are nothing more than a species of animals that evolved an unique set of abilities; there’s nothing meta- about us…
[/quote]

Don’t look now, but you just expressed a meta-physical construct. Metaphysics is all around us, we literally cannot function with out it. Theory, math, ideas, laws, etc. None of this shit is physcial, but we mold our physical world around our metaphysical revelations. Can you build a chair with out first having an idea of what a chair should look like?
This all roles back to Plato’s Forms…

This discussion is metaphysical, you have to think it before you say it.[/quote]

…remember when i took your use of the word “metaphysics” to mean something suprahuman or divine? That you use that word here again with the implied intent that that word points at something undefineable is a smoke screen, an attempt to conjur bigger meaning from something that is naturally occuring…

…you should watch the lecture i posted a few posts up, it deals with what we have in common with our fellow animals, and where we are unique in nature. But no matter how unique the attributes we have as humans, all these attributes can be explained by natural selection and evolution and physical traits…

…you think having an idea about something shows that God exists? You believe that because we thought of God that means God exists? Why does one follow from the other? How does one follow from the other? Explain that if you can please, because i have a hard time understanding that…

464

I’ve noticed that typically the debates in these faith forums come down to three essential arguments for atheism:

  1. God cannot be proven through science therefore does not exist
  2. People that have proclaimed faith in God have done evil
  3. Believers are closed minded and do not test what they are told

The last one is usually the most amusing to me as many self proclaimed atheists in their debates resort to name calling and insults to get their points across. Not saying that believers don’t, but it seems contradictory that someone that calls themselves “open-minded” and “liberal” in their beliefs feel it necessary to bash others for their beliefs.

My feeling about belief is basically this; If people during Jesus’s time that saw his power and ability still denied and crucified him then why should we really believe that those living 2000+ years later will all accept him?

I know typically we consider “faith” and belief in Christianity to be one in the same even though there are numerous religions of the world. I wonder why nobody ever gets on these faith forums and ever advocates Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc? I would sure like to give a debate with a believer of another religion a go for a change.

465

…the belief in a deity is irrational and illogical. That is why i have no religious beliefs. If you can find Yusef, he’ll be more than happy to discuss Islam with you [in a different thread]…

466

I always hear that the belief in a deity is illogcial and irrational, but I find it interesting that every soceity and culture has some belief in a god of some sort. It’s not something that has to be taught to people that they should seek out a higher meaning and understanding or believe in some higher power. It’s like being hungry or thirsty. If a person became hungry or thirsty they would naturally seek out a way to cure the problem yet we wouldn’t call their actions irrational or illogcial.

467

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always hear that the belief in a deity is illogcial and irrational, but I find it interesting that every soceity and culture has some belief in a god of some sort. It’s not something that has to be taught to people that they should seek out a higher meaning and understanding or believe in some higher power. It’s like being hungry or thirsty. If a person became hungry or thirsty they would naturally seek out a way to cure the problem yet we wouldn’t call their actions irrational or illogcial. [/quote]

…research shows that the brain evolved sensitivity to religious beliefs: 'Theory of mind' could help explain belief in God | New Scientist

…this research suggests that religion played a large part in keeping the tribe together, e.i. a homogenous tribe is a more succesful tribe. Since natural selection tells us that only the strong survive, this trait survived and flourished in people aswell…

…so, the fact that people throughout the planet have some sort of religious construct is not suprising; having these constructs increased the chances of survival. Now, this just tells us that religion itself can be a good thing, it says nothing about the veracity of the claim that a god exists…

…why belief in god is irrational and illogical? Simply because, if god is real you don’t need to believe or have faith: you only believe in something you’re not sure of exists. If god would show himself to me and prove he exists, i’d still not believe in his existence, i’d know he exist. See the difference?

468

I belief means that you know something. You could use it in terms of saying you think something to be true, but if I use the phrase “my beliefs” it means what I know to be true. Yes, I do consider God to be something that is true not just something I think is true. The Bible is something that can be proven time after time to be true. Often, stories in the Bible were passed off as parable, legend, or just a good story. Yet over time, many stories in the Bible were proven to be true based on hard, archaeological evidence. Why does that matter? If the Bible were considered a book that was said to be true but was filled with myths and stories that were in fact just made up, then it would destroy the entire idea of Biblical truth. The fact that nothing, to date, in the Bible has ever been proven as false leads us to the belief that it is a credible source.

469

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I belief means that you know something. You could use it in terms of saying you think something to be true, but if I use the phrase “my beliefs” it means what I know to be true. Yes, I do consider God to be something that is true not just something I think is true. The Bible is something that can be proven time after time to be true. Often, stories in the Bible were passed off as parable, legend, or just a good story. Yet over time, many stories in the Bible were proven to be true based on hard, archaeological evidence. Why does that matter? If the Bible were considered a book that was said to be true but was filled with myths and stories that were in fact just made up, then it would destroy the entire idea of Biblical truth. The fact that nothing, to date, in the Bible has ever been proven as false leads us to the belief that it is a credible source.[/quote]

…so believing that God created everything in 6 days; that Eve was formed from Adam’s rib; that they were evicted from Paradise for eating an apple etc… that is logical and rational to you?

470

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I belief means that you know something. You could use it in terms of saying you think something to be true, but if I use the phrase “my beliefs” it means what I know to be true. Yes, I do consider God to be something that is true not just something I think is true. The Bible is something that can be proven time after time to be true. Often, stories in the Bible were passed off as parable, legend, or just a good story. Yet over time, many stories in the Bible were proven to be true based on hard, archaeological evidence. Why does that matter? If the Bible were considered a book that was said to be true but was filled with myths and stories that were in fact just made up, then it would destroy the entire idea of Biblical truth. The fact that nothing, to date, in the Bible has ever been proven as false leads us to the belief that it is a credible source.[/quote]

…so believing that God created everything in 6 days; that Eve was formed from Adam’s rib; that they were evicted from Paradise for eating an apple etc… that is logical and rational to you?
[/quote]

Well, this is often one of the stories that people poinnt to for allegory or parable to explain. I used to do the exact same thing. Even the ancient Hebrews thought of the story as partly allegory. However, the fact that they kept record of Adam’s age and lineage points to the fact that they by no means thought he was make believe. Remember, Genesis simply means the first not the only. When Cain was cast out of their society he went east and married a woman. This points to the fact that other people besides the lineage of Adam had come into existence over time.

The word rib is another prime example of how most that read the Bible, whether to prove or disprove it, often forget that it was not originally written in English. The Hebrew word used in this context carried a deeper meaning than our word rib. Think of rib as innermost part. So therefore, it carried more significance than “just a bone.”

The Hebrew word for day is also a word that carries a different conotation. It could mean either a 24 hour time period or a longer unspecified period as in “back in the day.” We have the order in which God created the heavens and earth but not necessarily the time period. The original authors of the Bible viewed these days to be longer than 24 hour periods.

So in other words, yes, I believe it to be logical. Good question though.

471

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I belief means that you know something. You could use it in terms of saying you think something to be true, but if I use the phrase “my beliefs” it means what I know to be true. Yes, I do consider God to be something that is true not just something I think is true. The Bible is something that can be proven time after time to be true. Often, stories in the Bible were passed off as parable, legend, or just a good story. Yet over time, many stories in the Bible were proven to be true based on hard, archaeological evidence. Why does that matter? If the Bible were considered a book that was said to be true but was filled with myths and stories that were in fact just made up, then it would destroy the entire idea of Biblical truth. The fact that nothing, to date, in the Bible has ever been proven as false leads us to the belief that it is a credible source.[/quote]

…so believing that God created everything in 6 days; that Eve was formed from Adam’s rib; that they were evicted from Paradise for eating an apple etc… that is logical and rational to you?
[/quote]

Well, this is often one of the stories that people poinnt to for allegory or parable to explain. I used to do the exact same thing. Even the ancient Hebrews thought of the story as partly allegory. However, the fact that they kept record of Adam’s age and lineage points to the fact that they by no means thought he was make believe. Remember, Genesis simply means the first not the only. When Cain was cast out of their society he went east and married a woman. This points to the fact that other people besides the lineage of Adam had come into existence over time.

The word rib is another prime example of how most that read the Bible, whether to prove or disprove it, often forget that it was not originally written in English. The Hebrew word used in this context carried a deeper meaning than our word rib. Think of rib as innermost part. So therefore, it carried more significance than “just a bone.”

The Hebrew word for day is also a word that carries a different conotation. It could mean either a 24 hour time period or a longer unspecified period as in “back in the day.” We have the order in which God created the heavens and earth but not necessarily the time period. The original authors of the Bible viewed these days to be longer than 24 hour periods.

So in other words, yes, I believe it to be logical. Good question though.

[/quote]

…did you know that there are people who believe the Earth is flat? Have a look here: The Flat Earth Society and here: The Flat Earth Society Wiki | HomePage

…do you agree with me that holding such a belief contrary to everything we’ve learned about our planet and the universe is irrational and illogical?

…now, if you agree with me in this case you know how i feel about your beliefs. It’s not a big step from believing the Earth is flat and believing the Earth, the universe and us were created by an antropomorphic god; both beliefsystems are devoid of truth and are maintained inspite of reality telling us otherwise…

…thank you for your patience BB…

472

I’ll be. I guess they figure all those pictures were “faked.” I understand a lack of belief. I was there myself for most of my life even though I was raised in a church going family. As a matter of fact, nothing that I can tell you can make you believe.

Heck, Jesus appeared to multitudes of people that saw him perform miracles and many of them still didn’t believe. I used to get very angry when people approached me about God or Christianity or anything of that sort. I think as believers it is our job to talk to and answer questions of those who are non believers.

Unfortunately, at times some believers try too hard to force a conversion or belief system on others. I applaud you for your willingness to discuss such things without resorting to insults or name calling as some do. I look forward to further questions.

473

…remember when i took your use of the word “metaphysics” to mean something suprahuman or divine? That you use that word here again with the implied intent that that word points at something undefineable is a smoke screen, an attempt to conjur bigger meaning from something that is naturally occuring…
[/quote]
Metaphysics are just simply objects that have no physical matter. Thatâ??s it, itâ??s not more complicated than that. Itâ??s no smoke screen, unless your arguing that ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc are not real, then we have a problem.

Not consciousness, evolution does not explain the existence of consciousness or what possess it.
I am not against natural selection or evolution, but it doesnâ??t explain everything. We are animals be we have notions of good and evil, we have morality, animals do not. Animals are not faced with moral dilemmas, they just do what they do.

That is an ontological argument. Not having an idea about something. Tracking the sources of all things whether in the temporal realm or not, leads up. Ever notice, for instance, that as the more you break things down, the more in common everythingâ??s basic make up is? So you and I are different people, we are made of cells, cells are made up atoms, atoms are made of electrons, protons, and neutrons, those suckers are made up of other shitâ?¦.So we go from being vastly different to both being made up of sub atomic particles. You I have different properties, sub atomic particles, other than location, have the same properties.

474

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the belief in a deity is irrational and illogical. That is why i have no religious beliefs. If you can find Yusef, he’ll be more than happy to discuss Islam with you [in a different thread]… [/quote]

I see the opposite. Non-belief in a â??dietyâ?? if you so choose to call it that, it illogical. Without a source you have to accept a completely illogical argument, that everything comes from nothing. We say everything came from something. That is actually more logical. To be the initial source it, by definition, cannot have a source and must exist outside the causal chainâ?¦.Itâ??s very basic in itâ??s simplicity.

475

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I belief means that you know something. You could use it in terms of saying you think something to be true, but if I use the phrase “my beliefs” it means what I know to be true. Yes, I do consider God to be something that is true not just something I think is true. The Bible is something that can be proven time after time to be true. Often, stories in the Bible were passed off as parable, legend, or just a good story. Yet over time, many stories in the Bible were proven to be true based on hard, archaeological evidence. Why does that matter? If the Bible were considered a book that was said to be true but was filled with myths and stories that were in fact just made up, then it would destroy the entire idea of Biblical truth. The fact that nothing, to date, in the Bible has ever been proven as false leads us to the belief that it is a credible source.[/quote]

…so believing that God created everything in 6 days; that Eve was formed from Adam’s rib; that they were evicted from Paradise for eating an apple etc… that is logical and rational to you?
[/quote]

Well, this is often one of the stories that people poinnt to for allegory or parable to explain. I used to do the exact same thing. Even the ancient Hebrews thought of the story as partly allegory. However, the fact that they kept record of Adam’s age and lineage points to the fact that they by no means thought he was make believe. Remember, Genesis simply means the first not the only. When Cain was cast out of their society he went east and married a woman. This points to the fact that other people besides the lineage of Adam had come into existence over time.

The word rib is another prime example of how most that read the Bible, whether to prove or disprove it, often forget that it was not originally written in English. The Hebrew word used in this context carried a deeper meaning than our word rib. Think of rib as innermost part. So therefore, it carried more significance than “just a bone.”

The Hebrew word for day is also a word that carries a different conotation. It could mean either a 24 hour time period or a longer unspecified period as in “back in the day.” We have the order in which God created the heavens and earth but not necessarily the time period. The original authors of the Bible viewed these days to be longer than 24 hour periods.

So in other words, yes, I believe it to be logical. Good question though.

[/quote]

…did you know that there are people who believe the Earth is flat? Have a look here: The Flat Earth Society and here: The Flat Earth Society Wiki | HomePage

…do you agree with me that holding such a belief contrary to everything we’ve learned about our planet and the universe is irrational and illogical?

…now, if you agree with me in this case you know how i feel about your beliefs. It’s not a big step from believing the Earth is flat and believing the Earth, the universe and us were created by an antropomorphic god; both beliefsystems are devoid of truth and are maintained inspite of reality telling us otherwise…

…thank you for your patience BB…
[/quote]

What does reality tell us created everything?

476

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I belief means that you know something. You could use it in terms of saying you think something to be true, but if I use the phrase “my beliefs” it means what I know to be true. Yes, I do consider God to be something that is true not just something I think is true. The Bible is something that can be proven time after time to be true. Often, stories in the Bible were passed off as parable, legend, or just a good story. Yet over time, many stories in the Bible were proven to be true based on hard, archaeological evidence. Why does that matter? If the Bible were considered a book that was said to be true but was filled with myths and stories that were in fact just made up, then it would destroy the entire idea of Biblical truth. The fact that nothing, to date, in the Bible has ever been proven as false leads us to the belief that it is a credible source.[/quote]

…so believing that God created everything in 6 days; that Eve was formed from Adam’s rib; that they were evicted from Paradise for eating an apple etc… that is logical and rational to you?
[/quote]

Well, this is often one of the stories that people poinnt to for allegory or parable to explain. I used to do the exact same thing. Even the ancient Hebrews thought of the story as partly allegory. However, the fact that they kept record of Adam’s age and lineage points to the fact that they by no means thought he was make believe. Remember, Genesis simply means the first not the only. When Cain was cast out of their society he went east and married a woman. This points to the fact that other people besides the lineage of Adam had come into existence over time.

The word rib is another prime example of how most that read the Bible, whether to prove or disprove it, often forget that it was not originally written in English. The Hebrew word used in this context carried a deeper meaning than our word rib. Think of rib as innermost part. So therefore, it carried more significance than “just a bone.”

The Hebrew word for day is also a word that carries a different conotation. It could mean either a 24 hour time period or a longer unspecified period as in “back in the day.” We have the order in which God created the heavens and earth but not necessarily the time period. The original authors of the Bible viewed these days to be longer than 24 hour periods.

So in other words, yes, I believe it to be logical. Good question though.

[/quote]

…did you know that there are people who believe the Earth is flat? Have a look here: The Flat Earth Society and here: The Flat Earth Society Wiki | HomePage

…do you agree with me that holding such a belief contrary to everything we’ve learned about our planet and the universe is irrational and illogical?

…now, if you agree with me in this case you know how i feel about your beliefs. It’s not a big step from believing the Earth is flat and believing the Earth, the universe and us were created by an antropomorphic god; both beliefsystems are devoid of truth and are maintained inspite of reality telling us otherwise…

…thank you for your patience BB…
[/quote]

What does reality tell us created everything?[/quote]

I think unlike some that the study of science is more proof of intelligent design than anything else. When we think about how every minute detail had to be just so in order to even start, let alone, sustain life, then I think we realize how our existence as just a random chance of events really makes little sense. We are also left to wonder why other planets and solar systems cannot sustain life. Why have the right elements not ocurred again on earth for life to begin spontaneously? How could such an expansive, infinite, and often times unexplainable universe have been created out of a singularity no bigger than an atom? I think it’s truly amazing.

477

[quote]pat wrote:
…remember when i took your use of the word “metaphysics” to mean something suprahuman or divine? That you use that word here again with the implied intent that that word points at something undefineable is a smoke screen, an attempt to conjur bigger meaning from something that is naturally occuring…

Metaphysics are just simply objects that have no physical matter. That�?�¢??s it, it�?�¢??s not more complicated than that. It�?�¢??s no smoke screen, unless your arguing that ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc are not real, then we have a problem.

…you should watch the lecture i posted a few posts up, it deals with what we have in common with our fellow animals, and where we are unique in nature. But no matter how unique the attributes we have as humans, all these attributes can be explained by natural selection and evolution and physical traits…

Not consciousness, evolution does not explain the existence of consciousness or what possess it.
I am not against natural selection or evolution, but it doesn�?�¢??t explain everything. We are animals be we have notions of good and evil, we have morality, animals do not. Animals are not faced with moral dilemmas, they just do what they do.

…you think having an idea about something shows that God exists? You believe that because we thought of God that means God exists? Why does one follow from the other? How does one follow from the other? Explain that if you can please, because i have a hard time understanding that…

That is an ontological argument. Not having an idea about something. Tracking the sources of all things whether in the temporal realm or not, leads up. Ever notice, for instance, that as the more you break things down, the more in common everything�?�¢??s basic make up is? So you and I are different people, we are made of cells, cells are made up atoms, atoms are made of electrons, protons, and neutrons, those suckers are made up of other shit�?�¢?�?�¦.So we go from being vastly different to both being made up of sub atomic particles. You I have different properties, sub atomic particles, other than location, have the same properties.
[/quote]

…actually pat, researchers in the field have observed cultural behaviour in animals, especially primates. They know what an “other” is. They are able to show compassion and empathy, and even use “tit for tat” or the golden rule. Chimps on border patrol kill other chimps from neighbouring terratoria. You should really watch that lecture…

…whether thought is evidence of something that is a matter of opinion, and that we’re made of star dust and emptiness i can’t argue about with you because i agree there with you. The BBC film deals with this subject, and it’s a pity you won’t watch it. If you are willing to dissect reality and life, and come to an understanding about the underlying processes that brought us here, why stop at beliefs? Why not dissect beliefs aswell, and challenge them?

478

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the belief in a deity is irrational and illogical. That is why i have no religious beliefs. If you can find Yusef, he’ll be more than happy to discuss Islam with you [in a different thread]… [/quote]

I see the opposite. Non-belief in a �¢??diety�¢?? if you so choose to call it that, it illogical. Without a source you have to accept a completely illogical argument, that everything comes from nothing. We say everything came from something. That is actually more logical. To be the initial source it, by definition, cannot have a source and must exist outside the causal chain�¢?�¦.It�¢??s very basic in it�¢??s simplicity.

[/quote]

…not non-belief, but no belief. I don’t think we’ve come from nothing, i think we evolved from the basic building blocks found in abundance in the universe. Where do those building blocks come from? I don’t know, but it’s here. Believing that the reason that it’s here is due to an even bigger mystery, God, that i can’t do. It’s simple as that…

479

…it tells us nothing except that no-one’s there…

480

[quote]BBriere wrote:

I think unlike some that the study of science is more proof of intelligent design than anything else. When we think about how every minute detail had to be just so in order to even start, let alone, sustain life, then I think we realize how our existence as just a random chance of events really makes little sense. We are also left to wonder why other planets and solar systems cannot sustain life. Why have the right elements not ocurred again on earth for life to begin spontaneously? How could such an expansive, infinite, and often times unexplainable universe have been created out of a singularity no bigger than an atom? I think it’s truly amazing.
[/quote]

…see, it’s just a matter of perspective. You think the conditions for life existing on Earth were put in place just to sustain us. I say we evolved the way we did because the conditions were right…

…think about the size of the universe for a moment. It’s estimated that our galaxy holds 100 billions stars, and the visible universe contains over a 100 billions galaxies. On such a scale, and on such a cosmic timeframe, life arising spontaneously is simply inevitable…