A Thread about Religion

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
A man can understand God in the same way that a four-year-old can understand Santa Claus.

And for all the same reasons.[/quote]

That is an assumption that many make. “Those simple minded religious are only faithful in the hopes that they will be repaid in the afterlife, which itself is a fallacy.” But do you really think it’s that simple?[/quote]

No, and that’s not exactly what I meant.

What does a four-year-old know about Santa Claus?

Why does a four-year-old know anything about Santa Claus?

Who benefits if four-year-olds believe in Santa Claus?

Does Santa Claus care if four-year-olds believe in him? Why or why not?[/quote]

Can’t you say the same about atheism?
[/quote]

Let’s find out. Answer the questions and let’s see if belief in Claus is, in fact, equivalent to atheism.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
One can believe in any god/s of choice and get the emotional satisfaction our species seem to be in need of, but there is nothing logical in it.

[/quote]

Sure there is but your assumptions get in the way of understanding why.[/quote]

There are always assumptions, but which ones are you referring to?[/quote]

If you know there are always assumptions why should you need to ask me what they are in your case?

Can you not self-examine and explain where you own faith lies? It’s there in your case, and mine, because assumptions are based on faith.[/quote]

Because you said there is something I don’t understand because of my assumptions. That’s totally plausible so I ask what assumptions in this case are in my way. I got the impression that you see them clearly.

Assumptions are based on faith, okay. You could also say they are based on want or need. Which part of a human want or need is logical in nature?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Thank you, I like that. I’ll remember it. The way of bushido is pretty inspiring. Mastering your emotions is something all men should work tirelessly towards. The honour system used to impress me too until I learned a bit more about it and realised it’s not personal honour but face saving, group conformity fake ass honour.
[/quote]

Bushido is inspiring in many ways, but I meant the Zen Buddhist answer. While it is true that (E: rinzai)zen became fast attached with the new Shogun and formalized to accomodate the needs of the samurais, the notion of the nature of our emptions and our impressions is in the core of Buddhist teaching.

I don’t know about Australia, but up here men who can’t cope with their weaknesses end up killing themselves and sometimes their family, too.
There is nothing special in weakness, but as simians we have a natural aversion to it.

V�?�¥r forakt for svakhet. En analyse av nazismens normer og vurderinger. Oslo: Pax, 1971. ISBN 9788253000152. (Norwegian). Trans. ed. Our Contempt for Weakness: Nazi Norms and Values�¢??and Our Own. Gothenburg: Almqvist & Wiksell, 1989. ISBN 9789122012986.

As the name implies, the author thinks our fear and contempt of weakness is very dangerous.

So maybe we are referring to weakness in a slightly different context.

Besides, hiding weaknesses is impossible. Other simians can read you. Well, some of them, some are clueless.

As I said, I was a passive member, but was undecided for a long time because I

  • have christian values.
  • I like Jesus.

Life is constant struggle? Look at the lions on the savannah and what are they doing most of the time? I must say I disagree quite strongly with you here. Your strongest front is not strong anymore when exposed all the time.

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

By “yada yada” do you mean to convey that I hurt your feelings and caused you a pang, when I quoted my uncertainty whether you unwittingly misspelled or used deliberately dismissive slang? This is certainly not baiting, and of the gospel of Jesus Christ I am not ashamed (Romans 1:16-17).

About the “uncertainties that torture mortals”? Which mortals? The idolatrous mortals housed in this particular thread? What uncertainties? The “uncertainty” that a person cannot have anything nailed down with absolute certainty?

“For God’s wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them. For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse. Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became foolish and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things” (Romans 1:18-23).

Not only is the apostle Paul interested in the uncertainties that torture these anapologetos mortals, he further demonstrates his love for these tortured mortals by ripping off their mask of pretension and telling them the truth.
[/quote]

Hey, Opeth is a nice band, though I prefer Porcupine Tree when listening to that kind of music.

Why would I be interested in Paul’s musings? Why should you be ashamed of believing in gospel? Do you often get copypaste frenzies?
Okay, as a reborn christian (or just once - I don’t know)you still have much to learn. StevO was best.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Thought about finding a different church?[/quote]

No, there is no need. Church is not such a social hub here as it is there. Or that’s my impression. My reason for finally leaving are purely doctrinal. There is nothing left to believe in. Rich symbols, but I’m not convinced I need them either.

Maybe deism of some sort, but I don’t need a church for that.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Wow, Varq, you have a bitterness in you that’s so stark it’s plumb palpable.

Relax. If you’re right about what you believe you have no reason to be so uptight.
[/quote]

Not bitter, not uptight.

As you say, I have no reason to be.

I don’t think about gods, or their absence, at all… unless I’m on PWI. Then it’s just for fun.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

If I could have found a church of Zeus and Apollo and Aphrodite and Athena, I probably would have tried harder to believe in them, because I think they’re more interesting gods.

[/quote]

Could this be because Zeus was the offspring of Cronus and Rhea and became the supreme god, i.e., he had a beginning? I think this gives hope in a very subconscious manner to some folks that they too can become a god, in a manner of speaking. You will see them living their lives with that basic, underlying premise.

It’s a convenient premise because it allows one to discount or disregard altogether an eternal God who had no beginning and has no end and exists outside of Time – a Creator who can and does demand respect and will at one point or another gain that respect from every human being who’s ever lived.

In other words, one will not have to “try hard” at some point in one’s existence to believe in this Yahweh that you and many others so despise. It will become very easy. Some day.[/quote]

I don’t despise Yahweh. Why should I?

Do you despise Zeus?

How about Odin?

Hmmm. Do you despise Ahura Mazda?

What about Amaterasu?

No? Well, just consider that I don’t despise Yahweh for precisely the same reason you don’t despise the gods I listed above.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
A man can understand God in the same way that a four-year-old can understand Santa Claus.

And for all the same reasons.[/quote]

That is an assumption that many make. “Those simple minded religious are only faithful in the hopes that they will be repaid in the afterlife, which itself is a fallacy.” But do you really think it’s that simple?[/quote]

No, and that’s not exactly what I meant.

What does a four-year-old know about Santa Claus?

Why does a four-year-old know anything about Santa Claus?

Who benefits if four-year-olds believe in Santa Claus?

Does Santa Claus care if four-year-olds believe in him? Why or why not?[/quote]

Yes, this is what your earthworm mind does with what it assumes.[/quote]

Try using your earthworm mind to answer the questions.[/quote]

Are you willing to concede that your mind is just as earthwormy as mine? Or do you think you possess an elite beetle mind and thus debate condescendingly with my earthworm one?

Are you also willing to concede that your ethos in this regard is subject to basic assumptions? Do you understand what they are? Have you discovered them in your “self examination?”
[/quote]

A beetle mind would at least attempt to answer the questions above. An earthworm mind would continue to wriggle his way out of answering them.

Of course I make certain assumptions. I assume that I exist, and that reality is real. Beyond that, I want proof.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Maybe deism of some sort, but I don’t need a church for that. [/quote]

No, of course not. The whole universe is your church.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Let’s find out. Answer the questions and let’s see if belief in Claus is, in fact, equivalent to atheism.
[/quote]

I feel like your premise is that children would not know of Santa Claus or any of the stories associated had they not been brought up to believe. That is a usual argument against religion.
Take specific religion out of it for a moment. Take a clean slate child with no outside views being introduced. Is the default setting for God or no God? If religion is taught, isn’t atheism also taught?

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Let’s find out. Answer the questions and let’s see if belief in Claus is, in fact, equivalent to atheism.
[/quote]

I feel like your premise is that children would not know of Santa Claus or any of the stories associated had they not been brought up to believe. That is a usual argument against religion.
Take specific religion out of it for a moment. Take a clean slate child with no outside views being introduced. Is the default setting for God or no God? If religion is taught, isn’t atheism also taught?
[/quote]

Well, the nature vs. nurture argument always depends on several variables, and it’s impossible to say which is the case in this instance. There can be no completely clean slate. Has there ever been a society in history in which there was no multi-generational supernatural beliefs in gods, fairies, gnomes, trolls, devils, ghosts, or aliens? Of course not.

Had there ever been, it would be easier to formulate this experiment, because a belief in a god, rising up spontaneously in a child despite his atheistic societal environment, would be a strong point in favour of a “default setting” for “god”.

Conversely, in every society which believes in such things, which is to say, every society ever, there is a certain percentage which does not believe in them. Whether this disbelief is innate, or whether it is cultivated, cannot be said with any certainty.

On a certain level, most people who believe in the supernatural must force themselves to do so, in the absence of evidence for, and despite the evidence against, their beliefs. If you have to make yourself believe in things which do not apparently exist, or attempt to make others believe them, then we are quite literally talking about “make-believe”. Which admittedly doesn’t sound as nice as the word “faith”.

It takes far less effort, and certainly no amount of “faith”, to not believe in things which do not apparently exist.

Now, back to the question of a “default position”: a number of interesting studies have suggested that our brains (along with apes and other primates) have an area of the frontal lobe of the cortex that seems to be responsible for processing feelings of “religiousness”. When this area is stimulated (either artificially using electrical impulses, or endogenously, through prayer or religious contemplation), the area acts to produce in the body a feeling of bliss and satisfaction.

Notably, Richard Dawkins said he felt nothing when this area in his own brain was stimulated. Although this is not by any means conclusive evidence, it would indicate that some people are “wired for God” and others are not. It would be interesting indeed if one could study the brains of self-proclaimed “religious” and “irreligious” people, and see if their brain activity in this area is consistent with their professed belief or unbelief.

It would also be interesting to temporarily inhibit all activity in these areas and see how religious and credulous the subject remains.

Or to restate it more succinctly: as Michelangelo was innately aware, God is in your head.

The area of the cortex I previously mentioned is near the cingulate sulcus, which is where all of our “knowledge of good and evil” decisions are processed. In the Sistine Chapel painting this corresponds to God’s armpit. Maybe that accounts for the “sweet odour” Opeth was mentioning earlier: it’s the B.O. of the Almighty.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Hey, Opeth is a nice band, though I prefer Porcupine Tree when listening to that kind of music.[/quote]

I like some of Porcupine Tree’s songs. Just a few examples: Arriving Somewhere But not Here (I think Akerfeldt from Opeth sung backup on that one), Lazarus, and Octane Twisted. Opeth’s songs Harvest and Reverie/Harlequin Forest are good. Anything post-Watershed from Opeth I don’t really like. The Polish Prog Band Riverside is good too (e.g., Panic Room, Out of Myself, Dance with the Shadow). I also like a ton of Finnish metal (e.g., Amorphis, Barren Earth, Ghost Brigade, Kalmah, Insomnium, Finntroll, Immortal Souls, Mehida, Moonsorrow).

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Why would I be interested in Paul’s musings? Why should you be ashamed of believing in gospel? Do you often get copypaste frenzies?
Okay, as a reborn christian (or just once - I don’t know)you still have much to learn. StevO was best.[/quote]

If I recall correctly this “StevO” was preaching a gospel which the Apostle Paul had anathematized in “his musings” (Galatians 1:8-9).

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
One can believe in any god/s of choice and get the emotional satisfaction our species seem to be in need of, but there is nothing logical in it.

[/quote]

Sure there is but your assumptions get in the way of understanding why.[/quote]

There are always assumptions, but which ones are you referring to?[/quote]

If you know there are always assumptions why should you need to ask me what they are in your case?

Can you not self-examine and explain where you own faith lies? It’s there in your case, and mine, because assumptions are based on faith.[/quote]

Because you said there is something I don’t understand because of my assumptions. That’s totally plausible so I ask what assumptions in this case are in my way. I got the impression that you see them clearly.

Assumptions are based on faith, okay. You could also say they are based on want or need. Which part of a human want or need is logical in nature?[/quote]

Read my response to Varq above.
[/quote]

I did. I fail to see a connection.

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

I like some of Porcupine Tree’s songs. Just a few examples: Arriving Somewhere But not Here (I think Akerfeldt from Opeth sung backup on that one), Lazarus, and Octane Twisted. Opeth’s songs Harvest and Reverie/Harlequin Forest are good. Anything post-Watershed from Opeth I don’t really like. The Polish Prog Band Riverside is good too (e.g., Panic Room, Out of Myself, Dance with the Shadow). I also like a ton of Finnish metal (e.g., Amorphis, Barren Earth, Ghost Brigade, Kalmah, Insomnium, Finntroll, Immortal Souls, Mehida, Moonsorrow).

[/quote]

Finland has a lot of metal bands. I hadn’t even heard of Mehida before.

Maybe this could interest you. Kingston Wall, from the beginning of the 90’es. Still an important group for many metal and progrock players here.