A Thread about Religion

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
Opeth,

Just wondering what your stance is (or what you think God’s stance is) on non-sinners that do “not come to faith in Christ”? I understand that you may want to answer with something like, “there are no non-sinners” or bring up original sin and such, so let’s just say that the person I’m referring to is just about as “non-sinny” as you can get. This person gives freely of their time to others, doesn’t lie cheat or steal, works with charities etc. They just haven’t for some reason accepted religion as their cup of tea, whether it be a bad indoctrination, bad PR, a general lack of faith or a naturally skeptical nature.
[/quote]

Of course, those with a naturally skeptical nature are usually not naturally skeptical of their own natural skepticism. But about the person who is “about as ‘non-sinny’ as you can get.”

In Matthew 19:16-22, Jesus Christ preached the law first, showing the rich young man that he could not meet up to the standard of righteousness that the law requires. In Romans 1:18-3:20, Paul showed that everyone without exception, from the irreligious Gentile to the religious Jew, were without a righteousness that the law required, and that their works were evil. Jesus Christ, the God-Man Mediator met the inexorable demands of God’s law and justice for all whom He represented at the cross. All for whom Jesus died will go to heaven; all for whom He did not die will go to hell. WHY? Because salvation from God’s holy and just wrath is conditioned not on the sinner’s efforts, but on the law-fulfilling efforts of Jesus Christ alone.

[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
So they are aware of the Church (in all its’ many incarnations and denominations) they just haven’t bought in. Is God still happy with this guy not buying in? Is this paragon of human virtue screwed on judgment day? I’m not mocking your beliefs just asking for a clarification of how you think it works.[/quote]

Anyone trying to fellowship with God by his own efforts, even his very best efforts, is hated by God, because He hates all who do not have a righteousness that equals His. This goes for the most outwardly moral and religious person who is very concerned, to the outwardly immoral person who is irreligious and unconcerned. Is there then no hope?

There IS hope for those whom God has chosen to be His from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-7). And that hope DOES NOT and CANNOT reside in the character and conduct of the people whom God chose, because His elect people are SINNERS, just like the rest (Ephesians 2:1-10).

The GOOD NEWS is that Jesus Christ answered the demands of God’s law and justice in suffering the ultimate penalty for the disobedience of His people that the law demanded. Thus, while upon the cross, Jesus Christ, as a perfect representative, substitute, and sacrifice for His people, became a curse for His people and suffered the unmitigated fury of God the Father, which was equivalent to suffering the very pains of hell. This was not for any guilt He had contracted Himself but for the sins of His people. Their guilt was imputed to Him, and He suffered the penalty their sins deserved. His finished work on the cross appeased God’s wrath in full toward all for whom He died and paid the ransom price in full for all for whom He died, guaranteeing the salvation of all for whom He died.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The area of the cortex I previously mentioned is near the cingulate sulcus, which is where all of our “knowledge of good and evil” decisions are processed. [/quote]

What is your explanation of that area of the cortex? Why would humans have evolved this area? What purpose would it serve to have a “knowledge of good and evil” from a survival standpoint? Wouldn’t we be better off without a “God lobe” in that case?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

When you fellas say that you “tried to believe” do you mean tried to believe in the true God of the Bible?
[/quote]

For white Americans in the twentieth century, Yahweh was pretty much the only game in town. And yeah, I’ve read all of the quotes you pasted.

If I could have found a church of Zeus and Apollo and Aphrodite and Athena, I probably would have tried harder to believe in them, because I think they’re more interesting gods.
[/quote]

Take a gander at this INTERESTING passage:

“He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants” (Psalm 105:25).

When you were professing the name of Christ did you know that this verse was in your Bible? What do you think of this verse? Is this not an “interesting” God who actively causes and controls everything you think, do, and say?

To those presently professing the name of Christ: Is your view of God formed by Scripture, or is it formed by your own carnal opinion of what is “just” and “right” for God to do?

God TURNED their heart to hate His people and to deal craftily with His servants. Is it sin, is it wicked, to hate and deal craftily with God’s people? Of course it is. Thus, God turned their heart to sin. What does it mean to turn someone’s heart? In Hebrew, it is an active bending, making, fashioning, forging, causing, and producing. There is no getting around what this verse is saying. God actively made their hearts to think wicked things and then made them do wicked things. And God did not just “leave” them or “permit” them to think and do anything. He made them think and do particular things, particular sins. As seen later in the Psalm, He did this to show forth His power in His wondrous and marvelous works so He would get all the praise and the glory and so His people would worship Him and obey Him.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:

I like some of Porcupine Tree’s songs. Just a few examples: Arriving Somewhere But not Here (I think Akerfeldt from Opeth sung backup on that one), Lazarus, and Octane Twisted. Opeth’s songs Harvest and Reverie/Harlequin Forest are good. Anything post-Watershed from Opeth I don’t really like. The Polish Prog Band Riverside is good too (e.g., Panic Room, Out of Myself, Dance with the Shadow). I also like a ton of Finnish metal (e.g., Amorphis, Barren Earth, Ghost Brigade, Kalmah, Insomnium, Finntroll, Immortal Souls, Mehida, Moonsorrow).

[/quote]

Finland has a lot of metal bands. I hadn’t even heard of Mehida before.

Maybe this could interest you. Kingston Wall, from the beginning of the 90’es. Still an important group for many metal and progrock players here.

Thanks for this, kaaleppi. I like this.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Has there ever been a society in history in which there was no multi-generational supernatural beliefs in gods, fairies, gnomes, trolls, devils, ghosts, or aliens? Of course not.[/quote]

What about Communist countries? Or did they just replace God with The State?

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The area of the cortex I previously mentioned is near the cingulate sulcus, which is where all of our “knowledge of good and evil” decisions are processed. [/quote]

What is your explanation of that area of the cortex? Why would humans have evolved this area? What purpose would it serve to have a “knowledge of good and evil” from a survival standpoint? Wouldn’t we be better off without a “God lobe” in that case?
[/quote]

Humans didn’t uniquely evolve this area of the cortex; it’s found in other primate species besides our own. It stands to reason that a highly social organism with a large, complex brain living in a hierarchical society would have an area in its brain devoted to processing the social mores of the group, and being in awe of the boss. If survival means sticking together and doing what the boss says, then absolutely it serves a survival purpose.

The real question is, does it still serve a survival purpose? Could it be that atheism and skepticism demonstrates that some individuals are evolving out of it?

EDIT: At the risk of sending this thread, too, into the vortex of Evolution vs Design, If this topic interests you at all, I might recommend Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden, where he talks about the evolution of the brain, and how our rituals, superstitions and social mores are vestiges of our evolution from reptiles to mammals to the naked monkeys we are now.

And now a word from Pharaoh Push: “bla bla bla Carl Sagan bla bla pot-smoking looney bla bla de facto atheism bla bla bla need to do some more learnin’, ye squirrelly bastard, ye!”

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Has there ever been a society in history in which there was no multi-generational supernatural beliefs in gods, fairies, gnomes, trolls, devils, ghosts, or aliens? Of course not.[/quote]

What about Communist countries? Or did they just replace God with The State?
[/quote]

Ever talk to Russians or Cubans living under Communism? They’re some of the most superstitious motherfuckers around.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

If I could have found a church of Zeus and Apollo and Aphrodite and Athena, I probably would have tried harder to believe in them, because I think they’re more interesting gods.

[/quote]

Could this be because Zeus was the offspring of Cronus and Rhea and became the supreme god, i.e., he had a beginning? I think this gives hope in a very subconscious manner to some folks that they too can become a god, in a manner of speaking. You will see them living their lives with that basic, underlying premise.

It’s a convenient premise because it allows one to discount or disregard altogether an eternal God who had no beginning and has no end and exists outside of Time – a Creator who can and does demand respect and will at one point or another gain that respect from every human being who’s ever lived.

In other words, one will not have to “try hard” at some point in one’s existence to believe in this Yahweh that you and many others so despise. It will become very easy. Some day.[/quote]

I don’t despise Yahweh. Why should I?

Do you despise Zeus?

How about Odin?

Hmmm. Do you despise Ahura Mazda?

What about Amaterasu?

No? Well, just consider that I don’t despise Yahweh for precisely the same reason you don’t despise the gods I listed above.[/quote]

Of course it’s not the same; I never once believed in and then left Odin, Amaterasu, or the Japanese car maker for the vagaries of de facto atheism.
[/quote]

But presumably you once believed in Santa Claus. A more powerful demigod/deity than many who have been worshipped throughout history.

At what point in your life did you become a Santa Claus skeptic?

What led to your skepticism? And how did that skepticism develop into Santa Claus agnosticism and later, Santa Claus atheism?

I mean, I’m making a lot of presumptions here… you DO no longer believe in Santa Claus, right? And now that you no longer believe in him, do you despise him?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Has there ever been a society in history in which there was no multi-generational supernatural beliefs in gods, fairies, gnomes, trolls, devils, ghosts, or aliens? Of course not.[/quote]

What about Communist countries? Or did they just replace God with The State?
[/quote]

Ever talk to Russians or Cubans living under Communism? They’re some of the most superstitious motherfuckers around. [/quote]

Which explains the close working relationship with Putin’s kleptocracy and the Russian Orthodox Church.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Has there ever been a society in history in which there was no multi-generational supernatural beliefs in gods, fairies, gnomes, trolls, devils, ghosts, or aliens? Of course not.[/quote]

What about Communist countries? Or did they just replace God with The State?
[/quote]

Ever talk to Russians or Cubans living under Communism? They’re some of the most superstitious motherfuckers around. [/quote]

Which explains the close working relationship with Putin’s kleptocracy and the Russian Orthodox Church.
[/quote]

Precisely. A relationship that Stalin certainly used to his advantage. When you’re going to initiate a witch hunt, it always helps to have the clergy on your side.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The area of the cortex I previously mentioned is near the cingulate sulcus, which is where all of our “knowledge of good and evil” decisions are processed. [/quote]

What is your explanation of that area of the cortex? Why would humans have evolved this area? What purpose would it serve to have a “knowledge of good and evil” from a survival standpoint? Wouldn’t we be better off without a “God lobe” in that case?
[/quote]

Humans didn’t uniquely evolve this area of the cortex; it’s found in other primate species besides our own. It stands to reason that a highly social organism with a large, complex brain living in a hierarchical society would have an area in its brain devoted to processing the social mores of the group, and being in awe of the boss. If survival means sticking together and doing what the boss says, then absolutely it serves a survival purpose.

The real question is, does it still serve a survival purpose? Could it be that atheism and skepticism demonstrates that some individuals are evolving out of it?

EDIT: At the risk of sending this thread, too, into the vortex of Evolution vs Design, If this topic interests you at all, I might recommend Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden, where he talks about the evolution of the brain, and how our rituals, superstitions and social mores are vestiges of our evolution from reptiles to mammals to the naked monkeys we are now.

And now a word from Pharaoh Push: “bla bla bla Carl Sagan bla bla pot-smoking looney bla bla de facto atheism bla bla bla need to do some more learnin’, ye squirrelly bastard, ye!”[/quote]

Oh good grief is what ye get from PP.

You have so been suckered. [/quote]

Why do you hate Santa?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

If I could have found a church of Zeus and Apollo and Aphrodite and Athena, I probably would have tried harder to believe in them, because I think they’re more interesting gods.

[/quote]

Could this be because Zeus was the offspring of Cronus and Rhea and became the supreme god, i.e., he had a beginning? I think this gives hope in a very subconscious manner to some folks that they too can become a god, in a manner of speaking. You will see them living their lives with that basic, underlying premise.

It’s a convenient premise because it allows one to discount or disregard altogether an eternal God who had no beginning and has no end and exists outside of Time – a Creator who can and does demand respect and will at one point or another gain that respect from every human being who’s ever lived.

In other words, one will not have to “try hard” at some point in one’s existence to believe in this Yahweh that you and many others so despise. It will become very easy. Some day.[/quote]

I don’t despise Yahweh. Why should I?

Do you despise Zeus?

How about Odin?

Hmmm. Do you despise Ahura Mazda?

What about Amaterasu?

No? Well, just consider that I don’t despise Yahweh for precisely the same reason you don’t despise the gods I listed above.[/quote]

Of course it’s not the same; I never once believed in and then left Odin, Amaterasu, or the Japanese car maker for the vagaries of de facto atheism.
[/quote]

But presumably you once believed in Santa Claus. A more powerful demigod/deity than many who have been worshipped throughout history.

At what point in your life did you become a Santa Claus skeptic?

What led to your skepticism? And how did that skepticism develop into Santa Claus agnosticism and later, Santa Claus atheism?

I mean, I’m making a lot of presumptions here… you DO no longer believe in Santa Claus, right? And now that you no longer believe in him, do you despise him?
[/quote]

Your attempted parallels the mustard cut not.[/quote]

Karado… is that you?!

And why do you hate Santa?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

When you’re going to initiate a witch hunt, it always helps to have the clergy on your side.[/quote]

Indeed. And oh, how that works against you in a particular regard at which you play your tuba frequently.

Oooh Varq, that is such a suweet quote. I love it. It will be headed back your way 'fore you know it. Be on your toes.[/quote]

Santa hater.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Has there ever been a society in history in which there was no multi-generational supernatural beliefs in gods, fairies, gnomes, trolls, devils, ghosts, or aliens? Of course not.[/quote]

What about Communist countries? Or did they just replace God with The State?
[/quote]

Religion was suppressed, not absent. The russian orthodox church seems to do fine and had no difficulties in regaining its position.

Hi T-Nation!

Long time lurker, first post. Really wanna share this! After reading the first post of SM, I wanna react mostly on that.

I was raised religious, christian. I really tried to belive. Mostly it worked and I found peace in praying and talking with god. But I never really belived all the things about going to heaven or hell, being judged after your life…

When I was around 16, I was kinda depressed and began searching for wisdom. I kinda found this in Buddhism.

To make my point clear, the opposite of beliving, is the truth. Finding it, knowing how what you are and what god is.
Some religious people refer to this as finding god. I am sure many people that lived before found the truth, to name some: Jesus Christ, Buddha, Marcus Aurelius. Maybe even Einstein, Newton and Bob Marley…

The truth is simple (but hard to find). God is all there is, including you. So god is the universe! If god is the ocean, you are a wave!

We are god/the universe experiencing itself!

Why is this the truth? Because all the proof tells us it is… You are alive! And we are all I? There is absolutly 0 proof for god, but there is for life. We did evolve out of the universe, we didn’t came in to it (this is how most experience it).

I am sure this must be sounding like the storry of a madman for most, but try to be open minded and go inward as deep as you can… What is there? What is inside? What is your soul? Who are you?! The funny thing is that, the mind and words can’t grasph the truth of life, and you can’t find it, because searching implies you don’t have it allready… You are it! You are allready where you should be, every moment is perfect!

This brings me to the point, that religions brings us further away from the truth of life, because they forbid you from recognizing that you are it. But that is because the wrong interpretation of the bible, not because the truth is not in the bible.

Peace and love!