A Liberal Supermajority

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
pat wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
skaz05 wrote:
Just wow man. Scary.

For the first time in my life, I don’t like being an American. If people vote for this sort of society, then I have lost commonality with my fellow citizens. We are quickly approaching the type of world in which I would not choose to live. I’ve considered myself free all my life. I would refuse to be a serf.

I have the money and a small home in a very isolated part of Colorado. My wife and kids love it there and think of it as a vacation home. It may soon be our permanent home. I probably would never stop being an American (which to me was always something very special), but would not want to be around my fellow Americans.

I know many of you won’t vote for the insanity being proposed; but the majority of Americans will. To me, that is intolerable.

I do not think of Americans as noble anymore. I am very saddened by that.

Afterall, who IS John Galt?

Do you see some shocking parallels between atlas shrugged, and today? I find it horrifyingly shocking.

While we’re on this “Look at me! I read a book!” thread, here’s another one this society is starting to resemble that you should be more concerned about: 1984, by George Orwell. Public constantly under (illegal) surveillance? Check. Constantly at war with nations that may or may not actually be threatening? Check. Refusal to allow any civilian oversight of government activities? Check.

Ever read Animal Farm? ‘…some are more equal than others’ That is what we have to look forward to.

Yes, I have read Animal Farm, and I find it ironic that you would mention it since it works better as an analogy for the current state of affairs than any “socialism” which would come to pass under an Obama administration.

I truthfully have no diea why any of you think you would stand to lose anything if Obama were elected. How many of you are in the top 1% of earners?
[/quote]

  1. high taxes on buisness owners will drive production costs up. we’ll be less competitive in foreign markets, and sell less goods. People will lose their jobs, and those with jobs will have a lower quality of life(less money+higher prices).

  2. Universal healthcare makes other people pay for other people. We despise this notion. Not only is it inneficient, takes away incentive to create new treatments, and unfair. But the actual quality of care goes down.

102

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
pat wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
skaz05 wrote:
Just wow man. Scary.

For the first time in my life, I don’t like being an American. If people vote for this sort of society, then I have lost commonality with my fellow citizens. We are quickly approaching the type of world in which I would not choose to live. I’ve considered myself free all my life. I would refuse to be a serf.

I have the money and a small home in a very isolated part of Colorado. My wife and kids love it there and think of it as a vacation home. It may soon be our permanent home. I probably would never stop being an American (which to me was always something very special), but would not want to be around my fellow Americans.

I know many of you won’t vote for the insanity being proposed; but the majority of Americans will. To me, that is intolerable.

I do not think of Americans as noble anymore. I am very saddened by that.

Afterall, who IS John Galt?

Do you see some shocking parallels between atlas shrugged, and today? I find it horrifyingly shocking.

While we’re on this “Look at me! I read a book!” thread, here’s another one this society is starting to resemble that you should be more concerned about: 1984, by George Orwell. Public constantly under (illegal) surveillance? Check. Constantly at war with nations that may or may not actually be threatening? Check. Refusal to allow any civilian oversight of government activities? Check.

Ever read Animal Farm? ‘…some are more equal than others’ That is what we have to look forward to.

Yes, I have read Animal Farm, and I find it ironic that you would mention it since it works better as an analogy for the current state of affairs than any “socialism” which would come to pass under an Obama administration.

I truthfully have no diea why any of you think you would stand to lose anything if Obama were elected. How many of you are in the top 1% of earners?
[/quote]

Well first off, I think you meant top 5%. I bet there are atleast a few here. I bet there are ton of people whos employers, grociers, gas stations, utility companies, dentists, doctors, ect will be taxed more under Obama. What do think the outcome of this will be?

103

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
pat wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
skaz05 wrote:
Just wow man. Scary.

For the first time in my life, I don’t like being an American. If people vote for this sort of society, then I have lost commonality with my fellow citizens. We are quickly approaching the type of world in which I would not choose to live. I’ve considered myself free all my life. I would refuse to be a serf.

I have the money and a small home in a very isolated part of Colorado. My wife and kids love it there and think of it as a vacation home. It may soon be our permanent home. I probably would never stop being an American (which to me was always something very special), but would not want to be around my fellow Americans.

I know many of you won’t vote for the insanity being proposed; but the majority of Americans will. To me, that is intolerable.

I do not think of Americans as noble anymore. I am very saddened by that.

Afterall, who IS John Galt?

Do you see some shocking parallels between atlas shrugged, and today? I find it horrifyingly shocking.

While we’re on this “Look at me! I read a book!” thread, here’s another one this society is starting to resemble that you should be more concerned about: 1984, by George Orwell. Public constantly under (illegal) surveillance? Check. Constantly at war with nations that may or may not actually be threatening? Check. Refusal to allow any civilian oversight of government activities? Check.

Ever read Animal Farm? ‘…some are more equal than others’ That is what we have to look forward to.

Yes, I have read Animal Farm, and I find it ironic that you would mention it since it works better as an analogy for the current state of affairs than any “socialism” which would come to pass under an Obama administration.

I truthfully have no diea why any of you think you would stand to lose anything if Obama were elected. How many of you are in the top 1% of earners?

Well first off, I think you meant top 5%. I bet there are atleast a few here. I bet there are ton of people whos employers, grociers, gas stations, utility companies, dentists, doctors, ect will be taxed more under Obama. What do think the outcome of this will be?[/quote]

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

104

Yay!?!?!?

105

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

[/quote]

I’d love to see you try to back that up.

106

Let’s also not forget that Obama has mentioned raising both capital gains taxes and corporate taxes, where we already pay the 2nd highest tax rate in the world. This is separate from income tax.

This is also diametrically opposed to useful tax policy during a recession/depression. This will make the policy worse, if he manages to enact it.

107

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

[/quote]

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?

108

Reborn, WHO is that in your avatar??

109

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?[/quote]

Perhaps it does help with the majority of the payment, but it’s still not a policy I like.

110

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?

Perhaps it does help with the majority of the payment, but it’s still not a policy I like.[/quote]

Oh, I agree. But, on the tax thing, my understanding was that the $5k offsets the new tax. In fact, Financial Times had an article about how McCain actually provides a bigger tax cut Than Obama for the typical family, because of the $5k credit.

111

Well, if you can believe this website for example. See the second Fiction/facts on healthcare:

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm

112

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

I’d love to see you try to back that up. [/quote]

Kaz, what do you mean back it up. Mccain stated in the debates several times that he is going to tax health benefits. Ok, he didn’t actually state it but he did not deny it when Obama brought it up.

So you need more proof than that?

113

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?[/quote]

It would depend on how much you make and your tax bracket.

114

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?[/quote]

$5000 is more than most of the bottom earners actually pay in taxes, which is nothing at all. We’re not arguing over which one is a socialist, but to what degree.

115

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?

Perhaps it does help with the majority of the payment, but it’s still not a policy I like.

Oh, I agree. But, on the tax thing, my understanding was that the $5k offsets the new tax. In fact, Financial Times had an article about how McCain actually provides a bigger tax cut Than Obama for the typical family, because of the $5k credit.[/quote]

Think a little more about this. If the $5k offsets the health benefit tax, what is the point of the tax?

So either it does get more money out of the average guy than he is currently paying or it doesn’t. If it does than it is a new tax that is NOT offset by the $5k giveback. If it doesn’t than there is no point to it and it is political BS.

You make the call.

116

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?

$5000 is more than most of the bottom earners actually pay in taxes, which is nothing at all. We’re not arguing over which one is a socialist, but to what degree. [/quote]

Exactly. Neither are conservative.

117

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

Think a little more about this. If the $5k offsets the health benefit tax, what is the point of the tax?

[/quote]

To make it progressive. From the way it’s laid out health benefits would be taxed like income. Then, you get a $5k credit. In the end, this is supposed to provide the higher incomes with less of a gain, and the lower incomes a higher gain. In short, everyone has more money in the end, but the lower incomes will benefit more.

118

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

Either way we a screwed!

Doesn’t the $5000 credit more than offset that?

$5000 is more than most of the bottom earners actually pay in taxes, which is nothing at all. We’re not arguing over which one is a socialist, but to what degree.

Exactly. Neither are conservative.
[/quote]

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of McCain’s plan.

119

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

True, but McCain is going to tax your healthcare benefits, which will increase your taxable income; which means more taxes. AND, this applies to everyone who pays taxes, not just those above 250K.

I’d love to see you try to back that up.

Kaz, what do you mean back it up. Mccain stated in the debates several times that he is going to tax health benefits. Ok, he didn’t actually state it but he did not deny it when Obama brought it up.

So you need more proof than that?
[/quote]

Lorisco,

What I meant was that while it’s true that his plan woul tax health benefits, it is nonsense to say - as Obama continually does - that it will increase the net tax burden.

Yeah, McCain - among other things - is a shitty debater. He let many things go by including that one.

Not that McCain isn’t full of nonsense either. They’re both misrepresenting each other’s positions. As Henry Adams said, while thought is viscous, words are slippery :slight_smile:

However, to my way of thinking, it’s not so much the differences in their overall plans that I worry about, but their respective power to put those plans into practice. In other words, given the Dem control of Congress, at least McCain won’t be able to do too much damage.