I don’t believe in a devil, but if there is one I would suppose it means either your god is too weak to destroy him or your god is a sick, twisted individual who likes to watch suffering.
Anti religious garbage verses religious garbage. Just as you have freedom to religion, I have freedom from it. When someone shows up on my doorstep trying to convert me or attemps to hand me propoganda I call that disreprectful. Had any athiests show up on your doorstep lately? I guess I’m a blasphemer as well. So? I don’t follow your teachngs so your terms mean nothing to me. As far as being a hypocrite, well I guess you get my point. No one has or will ever see me try to highjack this forum to spread my beliefs. Caped Crusader I guess you don’t train or have nothing to say about training, your agenda is quite obvious. If Osama was a christian do you think 9/11 would have happened. Are all believers violent? Of course not. Following their religion? Exactly, following. Don’t think, don’t question, follow and believe. I’m from a Catholic town and was always treated as an outsider for my beliefs. A gun to my head, no, not literally. According to the Catholic church theirs is the one true God. My way or the highway right? Is that not the reason christians as well as other followers believe they have the right to spread their ideology. If I want religion I’ll get me some. If the Catholic church had its way we would all believe the earth was flat and the center of the universe. What about the Taliban. See any Athiests harking for a return to the good ole days of the dark ages? No. I’m not trying to convert anyone. I really don’t care what anyone else choses to do, as long as they don’t attempt to do it to me. You want hypocrites, how about priests sodomoizing alter boys. Sodom is a word from the bible is it not. The Catholic church has been covering this stuff up for years. I’m not familiar with all faiths, but show me one where the women are treated as equals and not chattal to obey their husbands/masters. I see nothing positive in organized religions. Oh yeah, Eric what you did is no more idiotic than what the preachers are doing, but I guess that was your point. Good one I say. At least you weren’t flinging your shit at them.
Actually, I do read the training forums, but I’ve had no reason to post there, yet. Me hijacking? My agenda? Friend, I’ve seen how you take every oppurtunity to bash, spew venom, and ridicule people of faith. Instead of saying that the guy in the jacket was a jack ass, you proceed (as usual) to paint christians with the same broad brush. Ironically, that guy isn’t even close to representing how the vast majority of Christians behave. Yes, you do have the right to respond like a jackass back. But why? If the person who asked if you wanted a pamphlet has only good intentions (although you might not believe in their faith) why jump to a response with bad intentions on PURPOSE. Weird, really weird. So, let me ask you this. If we were coworkers and you got sick or injured, and I said (with no ill thought on my part, only good intention), “I’ll keep you in my prayers.” That’s offensive? Man, If a Jew or Muslim were to say that to me, I would thank them for thinking of me. Not start ranting how they were trying to force feed their religion on me. By the way, don’t forget the vast majority of priests who are not pediophiles and do things like…oh, I don’t know…run shelters…feed and clothe the hungry…help administer to the sick…put themselves in danger championing for human rights in countries run by dictators, etc., etc. Of course, bigots only focus on the minority of bad apples and declare the whole lot of them rotten. And of course, I think that my faith is the full bastion of truth, in a spiritual sense. Or, I wouldn’t HAVE BECOME A CHRISTIAN!! I don’t do this to have neat little rituals or to get a decoder ring. I didn’t ‘join the club’ thinking it would win me popularity contests. I did it because it seemed to answer my questions of why we were here. Please no theological debates!!! I refuse to discuss such things on a forum! Back to point. Now, my believing this, does not mean I don’t completely respect the fact that others don’t feel the way I do. I’ll make friends with an Atheist, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu, as fast as a I would a Christian. And, the last thing I would think of any of the above is that they can’t reason. I’d hate to call you a bigot, a religiphobe (did I just make up a new word?), but your outlook on people of faith smacks of bigotry and stereotyping.
Just wanted to add SD, that I will not be responding on this thread anymore. Like I said, I’m not following my path to win a popularity contest. So, I will just skip this thread from here on out. After all, I’m not the best Christian apologist. Besides, I don’t have anything to apologize for. Good luck and…God bless…oh come on, I meant nothing bad by it, loosen up! 
what do you think the world would have been like if no one had invented religions? there sure as hell would have been a lot less wars thats for sure, millions and millions of people have died for their religions whatever they had been. i say invented because at best there could be only one true religion for each one varies with its beliefs.
on another religion bashing note, i have a friend who is not religious yet his entire family is. whenever he hits hard times he starts going to church and begins to churn out all those tired religious things, god, jesus etc. he simply uses it as a crutch and because of that has never developed the mental ability to deal with his own problems. personally, i think that that is why religions where invented;people needed answers, they needed a crutch. there were too many unanswered questions:where did we come from, why are we here, why did this happen/not happen, and where do we go when we die. every religion has an answer for these questions and those who believe the answers their religions give them will feel comforted that they know just whats going on.
I have no religion and i intend to stay that way. while i feel no ill will to those who believe in a religion, whatever it may be, i am agaisnt those who push it onto others; such as those who prey on the weak minds of university students looking for acceptance. unfortunity, religions are too far spread to ever truely die out, there are always people who want answers to unexplained things who will not wait for science to explain them.
i guess this all means that i must be going to about 30 different hells at least, maybe ill even get reincarnated too! there can be only one true religion, only one true god;choose wrong and go to hell, choose right and you are set for the afterlife. ill tell you right now i know at least 5 billion people are going straight to hell. anyway, just something to think about
Boy there some real idiots in this world, and you know what? Those so called religous zealots are not them. There are a whole heard of them typing on this thread. First off what you did is absurd! T-man would not have acted like a jack ass when confronted by someone who is trying to simply make the world a little better. What are you doing to make the world better besides showing women and children your pimple ridden ass? And as for the rest of you who dislike Christians, and wish they would leave the rest of the Country alone…Get the fuck out, because this Country was founded on Christianity, and it ins’t going anywere!!!
Speaking of painting in broad brush strokes. Russia and China. Are you serious? Eveyone in those countries are athiests? Please. There are plenty of Churchs in Russia. Did the pope not make visit to the faithful there? The official line of a government does not always reflect the reality of its people. Communism sucks no doubt about that. I am a bigot if I do not agree with your views or challenge them? Reiliphobe? I am hardly afraid of religion, I just have no use for it. Again you prove my point by trying to make me fit in your mold. Perhaps you would like me to call you an anti-athiest. Keep up the name calling. Very mature. As for the pedophile priests. Perhaps you can explain to me what kind of god would allow the ones he has called into his service to commit the deviance he is opposed to. Spewing venom? Ranting? Oh right the evil snake. Who really needs to lighten up? Take every opportuny? There have been plenty of times on this forum and elsewhere that I have not. If I did I wouldn’t have time for much else. I have much better things to do. I occaisonally make my views know as I am doing now. I just don’t offer them at every opportunity. You read the forums but haven’t repsonded. Is that because their has been no religious overtones in them? When and if you do see something worth responding to will you post as the crusader? If an athiest landed on your doorstep proclaiming that there is no god, how would you respond? Good intentions, I thought the road to hell was paved with good intentions. It was only with good intentions that missionaries try to bring god to poor savages. Yes I do take offense when someone says bless you. Would you take offense if someone said satan bless you? Not that I believe in satan. You’re not going to respond?Awfully thin skinned are you? My posts have been very mild, so I thought. Your are going to take your marbles and go. Not very mature. Plugging your ears works, I guess. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. I guess my reference to having ones head buried was more accurate than I thought. It is you my friend who is being the bigot and spewing. At least you didn’t start quoting scripture, yet. Perhaps you should loosen that cape.
That’s a very tolerant attitude you have Mongo. I guess it’s, you’re with us or against us. I suppose you would like all the Jews, Hindus, Muslims and other non-christians to leave as well. Those that don’t agree with you are idiots. Right? Erics’ actions were not the most mature things ever done, but I think that is the point he was trying to make. That he sees what they are doing as foolish as mooning. I’m not going anywhere, so get used to it. I don’t take orders from you or anyone else pal. Perhaps it is you who should leave. No one needs biggoted intolerant attitudes like yours. Your attitude is hardly T-Man like. Unlike you I don’t dislike someone because of their faith. I dislike them for the person they are and how they practise their faith. I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu,and yes even Christian and they are all fine people. They choose to respect my beliefs as I do theirs. They also do not try to tell me that their way is the only way or that I will go to hell or whatever for not following their practises. Some have even been surprised when they find out I am Ahtiest. Why? Because I don’t jump all over them or look down on them, I treat them with the same respect they show me. Do unto others eh? I didn’t need a bible to figure that out. Maybe you should practise what you preach.
That’s a very tolerant attitude you have Mongo. I guess it’s, you’re with us or against us. I suppose you would like all the Jews, Hindus, Muslims and other non-christians to leave as well. Those that don’t agree with you are idiots. Right? Erics’ actions were not the most mature things ever done, but I think that is the point he was trying to make. That he sees what they are doing as foolish as mooning. I’m not going anywhere, so get used to it. I don’t take orders from you or anyone else pal. Perhaps it is you who should leave. No one needs biggoted intolerant attitudes like yours. Your attitude is hardly T-Man like. Unlike you I don’t dislike someone because of their faith. I dislike them for the person they are and how they practise their faith. I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu,and yes even Christian and they are all fine people. They choose to respect my beliefs as I do theirs. They also do not try to tell me that their way is the only way or that I will go to hell or whatever for not following their practises. Some have even been surprised when they find out I am Ahtiest. Why? Because I don’t jump all over them or look down on them, I treat them with the same respect they show me. Do unto others eh? I didn’t need a bible to figure that out. Maybe you should practise what you preach.
I am a devout Christian, but I believe (and the bible says) its not my place to judge people. In fact I am one of the least judgemental people I know. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with visible evangelism but they should be offering information, etc. They shouldn’t be telling people they are evil and going to hell (regardless of what they think – GOD decides that).
Chris: did you miss me?
As for this rediculous debate, it ranks up there with every religious debate on this forum. Throwing stones and being snotty and intolerant. Guess what, no matter who believes what it's all out of our hands. That's why it's called faith
Yeah, I'm Christian, but I only discuss my religion and views with someone who asks me about them. I don't hand out tracts or go door to door. I respect other people's faith. Cause they think I'm as wrong as I think they are.. that's the beauty of it.
By the way, the 'if God is so good why do bad things happen' arguement is about as old and overused as the 'believe what I believe or go to Hell' both statements are pretty stupid in my book.
interesting point about the lack of religion thing - i was just wondering - does anyone think if no one had developed religion (as such), would people simply have reverted to patriotism? like, would they have found something else to follow? 'cuz it strikes me that looking at the things we evolved from, theres very often an innate higherarchical (issat a word?) structure. And to take a subject close, i think, to all our hearts - many regard ‘gym’ as one of the upcoming religions… others follow DIY - both are excellent AND rewarding forms of release! well, just curious…
Okay, I’ll break my vow of non response since you challenged that. However, that is the only thing I’m going to address. The reason why I’m bowing out of this debate is because I don’t need to make you like my religion. I never even tried to make you like my religion. I simply challenged the hatred you spewed (implying a serpent? geez). I have learned long ago that there are religious bigots. People who stereotype an entire faith based on what ultimately is the act of individuals. Such as the examples of wars caused by religion. You also could make the arguement that the most brutal of wars were also caused by whites. So are whites evil? Are only the white individuals who committed evil acts? Again, I guess it’s simpler to stereotype people based on color,religion, etc. Yawn, these kind of people bore me. Which is the second reason why I’m finished discussing the above posts. I’m bored. Third, do you really think either one of us is going to have some revelation? I knew that I wasn’t going to change your FANATICAL and ZEALOUS stereotyping and bigotry. I posted for those who might be sitting on the fence, about to form generalizations. When did you plan to stop replying? Never? Now I have to go start a war, molest a child, ‘force’(I own a gun) people to accept my religion, walk the streets pointing a people and damning them to eternal hellfire! Then again, If I did that I wouldn’t truly be Christian, only a wolf in sheeps clothes. But, I suppose others couldn’t see the difference. God bless everyone, peace.
“Just wanted to add SD, that I will not be responding on this thread anymore.”
hmm…
Hey, have you ever changed your mind? Seems like the guy made an exception. Just wondering what point you were trying to make.
Again with the hatred thing. Now I’m a fanatic and a zealot as well as a bigot. Is that your idea of a Christian attitude? You bring up the question of racism and try to imply that I am a racist as well. Nice. If you want “spewing hated” perhaps you should read Mongos’ post. Did I say all Christians or believers are rapists war mongers etc…? You speak of and accuse me of making generalizations, while failing to adress your own. Jim H. and Michelle both offered opinions without resorting to name-calling and labelling. To my mind, for the most part they are true to their beliefs. The old “why do bad things happen” question is posed because I feel it has never been answered. A question, statement or fact may old and overused, but that does not imply a lack of validity. Michelle I don’t think it’s all out of our hands, I believe just the opposite. Except death and taxes, at least for now anyway. Jim H. while you may believe we will all be judged by God, I of course do not. It’ll be just a dirt tuxedo for me. That’s when I’ll stop replying. Hey, my computer just went nuts as was typing this last line. The screen was jumping all over the place. Pretty cool eh? Of course I take this as just a glitch, but for others. It is a rebulilt monitor afterall.
*There are numerous documents stating that we are a Christian nation. Show us the evidence, SAK. Which documents? The supreme court even noted this in one of their rulings. Show us the evidence, SAK. Which ruling? *Our great thinkers and leaders were christians. Ben Franklin for example. Ben Franklin in OWN AUTOBIOGRAPHY made the following statement: “Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist.” Let’s take John Adams. John Adams was one of the signers of the Treaty of Tripoli. Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the “Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary,” most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states: “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington’s last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O’Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797. So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2). If they had intended our nation to be founded on Christianity, then why didn’t they mention Christianity in the Declaration of Independence or in the Constitution? If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment’s says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article VI, Section 3, “. . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
Read Ben Franklins Ulogy(sp?). He wrote it himself. That treaty you sighted is accurate in that it does not state that we are a christian nation, because that would totally contradcit what the constitution states. To state in any document one specific religion would defeat the purpose. Isn’t it funny how a country would found itself on free will, the right to choose. That is exactly what God gave to man. Free will. As far as the Supreme court ruling, it was from a case in the early 1900’s. I’ll let you look it up. Then you can huff and puff on this forum and type the whole thing out, just to realize that nobody has all the answers and we are all wrong and we are all right. It does not matter how many facts that we throw out there, or opinions. We will find out when we are dead. God Bless.
Michelle I wanted to adress your post directly You call this debate ridiculous snotty and intolerant like every religious debate on this forum. Thanks for not being judgmental. I guess you are trying to make your post conform to those very parameters. When did debating become ridiculous? I suppose it becomes ridiculous when one of the parties is accused of being a “hate spewing intolerant fanatical religiously biggoted zealot”, for expressing a contrary point of view. Hardly a debate even. You then go on to say that “Guess what, no matter who believes what it’s all out of our hands”. So it doesn’t matter what anyone believes, you are right. Then in the next paragraph you say you respect other peoples faith. I guess that means you don’t respect those of us who do not practice any faith. Is that your idea of tolerance? While I do not believe in God, I do not think you are wrong to do so. That would be intolerant. It’s the “preachers” I think are wrong. The ones that say I’m going to hell or should think like them. Of course that applies to more than just religion. To your “bad things happen” line. While I spoke in specifics regarding the sexual assualt of minors by priests, you chose to respond in generalities. I thought that homosexuality and assualt were sins? Is that ok if your are a priest? So much for “do unto others”. I guess it’s a case of “do as I say not as I do”. You may well say God will judge them, but that is not satisfactory to the victims and their families. These guys as well as every other pedophile should have their balls cut off as far as I’m concerned. This crime has reached the ears of the Pope for the first time, or so we are told . We all know what happens when an organization investigates itself. Hardly unbiased. Perhaps you now see why I am more than jaded with regards to organized religion, not to be confused with faith of spirituality. If the leaders can not follow their own teachings just how valid can it be. Cardinal Law, how ironic. Yes I know he is not accused directly but he help facilite the events by moving the accused form place to place. I guess he was hoping the problem would just go away. On a side note I am sorry to read of your recent employment problems. I’m sure you will have that resolved shortly if you don’t already. Best of luck in your efforts.
You stated “George Washington might not have been does not mean a thing. He was selected as the first President because he was a general and in that time they needed a leader and military personell were the best candidates.” Wasn’t he ELECTED, not SELECTED by the people of the USA. Doesn’t Exodus 20:16 state “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour”??? Are you a liar? You’ll burn in hell my friend.