A Feminist Defense of Masculine Virtues

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote] Powerpuff wrote:

And sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. Who cares, right? Unless it’s a “political statement” and then it just makes me mad. She wrote something earlier last year about how she was no longer going to wear makeup. I guess it’s a form of “selling your soul” to want to be attractive. :slight_smile: In fact, if you aren’t making yourself as unattractive as possible, you probably have a low IQ.

[/quote]

I’ve wondered about this sometimes, especially the making yourself as unattractive as possible part. Being a late in life college kid I’ve been exposed to a bunch of these. There was one girl in particular that I would hang out with a little bit on breaks. She wore predictably dumpy and disheveled clothes, a purposefully bad hair cut (shaved sides, floppy on top- but chopped up and crappy looking) a couple of random facial piercings and some of the worst and ugliest tattoos I’d ever seen, and I know people with some pretty badly done prison tats.

She would always throw activist bait out into the conversation but I made a game out of not biting. Somewhere in each conversation she would have to interject “Cause you know, I’m a lesbian so…” and I’d just nod and say something like “Yeah, me too. Not for ethical reasons though…” and she would just keep talking about what ever it means to be a feminist activist vegan lesbian or what ever else was wrong with her world that day.

Anyways, It made me think that there’s no great way to represent yourself if you live in some self created castigation and the crux of your entire position in life is that everybody else should do the same.
The other thing was that I kept wondering “Why does she keep talking to me?”. I’m pretty mundane looking and don’t have anything going on that would be considered even remotely interesting to the 19-20 something crowd.

82

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote] Powerpuff wrote:

And sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. Who cares, right? Unless it’s a “political statement” and then it just makes me mad. She wrote something earlier last year about how she was no longer going to wear makeup. I guess it’s a form of “selling your soul” to want to be attractive. :slight_smile: In fact, if you aren’t making yourself as unattractive as possible, you probably have a low IQ.

[/quote]

I’ve wondered about this sometimes, especially the making yourself as unattractive as possible part. Being a late in life college kid I’ve been exposed to a bunch of these. There was one girl in particular that I would hang out with a little bit on breaks. She wore predictably dumpy and disheveled clothes, a purposefully bad hair cut (shaved sides, floppy on top- but chopped up and crappy looking) a couple of random facial piercings and some of the worst and ugliest tattoos I’d ever seen, and I know people with some pretty badly done prison tats.

She would always throw activist bait out into the conversation but I made a game out of not biting. Somewhere in each conversation she would have to interject “Cause you know, I’m a lesbian so…” and I’d just nod and say something like “Yeah, me too. Not for ethical reasons though…” and she would just keep talking about what ever it means to be a feminist activist vegan lesbian or what ever else was wrong with her world that day.

Anyways, It made me think that there’s no great way to represent yourself if you live in some self created castigation and the crux of your entire position in life is that everybody else should do the same.
The other thing was that I kept wondering “Why does she keep talking to me?”. I’m pretty mundane looking and don’t have anything going on that would be considered even remotely interesting to the 19-20 something crowd.
[/quote]

Your “Me too, but not for ethical reasons.” response made me smile. Very funny. You must give off an accepting and approachable vibe. All the 12-step experience. :wink: Or maybe you are higher on the cool scale than you think.

83

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote] Powerpuff wrote:

And sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. Who cares, right? Unless it’s a “political statement” and then it just makes me mad. She wrote something earlier last year about how she was no longer going to wear makeup. I guess it’s a form of “selling your soul” to want to be attractive. :slight_smile: In fact, if you aren’t making yourself as unattractive as possible, you probably have a low IQ.

[/quote]

I’ve wondered about this sometimes, especially the making yourself as unattractive as possible part. Being a late in life college kid I’ve been exposed to a bunch of these. There was one girl in particular that I would hang out with a little bit on breaks. She wore predictably dumpy and disheveled clothes, a purposefully bad hair cut (shaved sides, floppy on top- but chopped up and crappy looking) a couple of random facial piercings and some of the worst and ugliest tattoos I’d ever seen, and I know people with some pretty badly done prison tats.

She would always throw activist bait out into the conversation but I made a game out of not biting. Somewhere in each conversation she would have to interject “Cause you know, I’m a lesbian so…” and I’d just nod and say something like “Yeah, me too. Not for ethical reasons though…” and she would just keep talking about what ever it means to be a feminist activist vegan lesbian or what ever else was wrong with her world that day.

Anyways, It made me think that there’s no great way to represent yourself if you live in some self created castigation and the crux of your entire position in life is that everybody else should do the same.
The other thing was that I kept wondering “Why does she keep talking to me?”. I’m pretty mundane looking and don’t have anything going on that would be considered even remotely interesting to the 19-20 something crowd.
[/quote]

Your “Me too, but not for ethical reasons.” response made me smile. Very funny. You must give off an accepting and approachable vibe. All the 12-step experience. :wink: Or maybe you are higher on the cool scale than you think.
[/quote]

And that young kid you mentioned. That’s the last person I’d want to make fun of, or be mean to. I feel for those kids.

I’m taking issue with grown ups who are acting like cutting their hair is serious business. And now I have to wonder why that bothers me. People gotta do their thing, and all that.

84

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote] Powerpuff wrote:

And sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. Who cares, right? Unless it’s a “political statement” and then it just makes me mad. She wrote something earlier last year about how she was no longer going to wear makeup. I guess it’s a form of “selling your soul” to want to be attractive. :slight_smile: In fact, if you aren’t making yourself as unattractive as possible, you probably have a low IQ.

[/quote]

I’ve wondered about this sometimes, especially the making yourself as unattractive as possible part. Being a late in life college kid I’ve been exposed to a bunch of these. There was one girl in particular that I would hang out with a little bit on breaks. She wore predictably dumpy and disheveled clothes, a purposefully bad hair cut (shaved sides, floppy on top- but chopped up and crappy looking) a couple of random facial piercings and some of the worst and ugliest tattoos I’d ever seen, and I know people with some pretty badly done prison tats.

She would always throw activist bait out into the conversation but I made a game out of not biting. Somewhere in each conversation she would have to interject “Cause you know, I’m a lesbian so…” and I’d just nod and say something like “Yeah, me too. Not for ethical reasons though…” and she would just keep talking about what ever it means to be a feminist activist vegan lesbian or what ever else was wrong with her world that day.

Anyways, It made me think that there’s no great way to represent yourself if you live in some self created castigation and the crux of your entire position in life is that everybody else should do the same.
The other thing was that I kept wondering “Why does she keep talking to me?”. I’m pretty mundane looking and don’t have anything going on that would be considered even remotely interesting to the 19-20 something crowd.
[/quote]

Your “Me too, but not for ethical reasons.” response made me smile. Very funny. You must give off an accepting and approachable vibe. All the 12-step experience. :wink: Or maybe you are higher on the cool scale than you think.
[/quote]

And that young kid you mentioned. That’s the last person I’d want to make fun of, or be mean to. I feel for those kids.

I’m taking issue with grown ups who are acting like cutting their hair is serious business. And now I have to wonder why that bothers me. People gotta do their thing, and all that. [/quote]

Generally I don’t treat people with kid gloves but at the same time I’m not intentionally hurtful. More specifically though I’m usually more accommodating to kids that show some outward signs of having problems, pushing boundaries and all of that which I can relate to.

I don’t know if that applies as much to adults. She (your friend) might consider that some great symbol of empowerment or something.

85

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

It reminded me of women wearing power suits with big shoulder pads back in the 80’s, looking like men - I thought we were past that.

And sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. Who cares, right? Unless it’s a “political statement” and then it just makes me mad. She wrote something earlier last year about how she was no longer going to wear makeup. I guess it’s a form of “selling your soul” to want to be attractive. :slight_smile: In fact, if you aren’t making yourself as unattractive as possible, you probably have a low IQ.

I think you are right about the “shooting themselves in the foot” part. If you want your ideas to appeal to mainstream people, going with a #2 buzz probably isn’t the way to go.

I need to get over it, but it’s a little sad for me. This woman is close friends with my best friend. She’s very smart, and is actually really nice. She has an English degree and was really fun in a book group we had going a couple of years ago, back in her grad school days. I remember when she buzzed her hair. She was single and about 30 at the time, and The Mister and I both agreed it was a little crazy to do that when you are trying to meet someone, because most men would read “lesbian”.

Sigh… Oh, well. Time to shampoo my Victoria’s Secret model hair… LOL!
[/quote]

Nah, I think you’re right to be bugged. If you are objective driven and look at the BIG goals, this is stupid. It has been stupid for a long time. When I see a guy who dresses stylishly, I might go “well I don’t ever want to pay $150 for a damn pair of jeans” but I don’t EVER go, “man he’s making a statement against the status quo of those stupid ass farmer john’s backward ways”. That is ludicrous.

A haircut is always just a haircut to other people looking at you. Unless of course they assume you’re a butch lesbian haha. But they’ll never think “political stand”. EVER.

86

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

“But it is also a political choice. I refuse to conform to prescribed beauty conventions for the sake of conforming. I like messing with people’s ideas of gender identity. I take a certain delight in people’s discomfort when they realize they’ve just called me ‘sir’ but I’m actually female. Everyone deserves to be seen for themselves.”

[/quote]
This is the whole, “I don’t care what people think but I do care what they think,” attitude that is typical of people under the age of 25. They say they don’t care what people think about how they look yet do things to get attention. If you want short hair then wear it short and get on with your life. On the flip side, I wonder how many (straight, non trans-whatever) men who have long hair have taken pleasure in being mistaken for women. And I thought women matured more quickly.

88

If she opposes all current mainstream feminist opinions, is she still a feminist?

89

[quote]pushharder wrote:
http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/29/psychologist-colleges-foster-environments-actively-hostile-toward-men/[/quote]

Wow. These are ideas most people would be afraid to express in a university environment, for fear that you would damage your career. At least some people are starting to talk about some of the negative consequences.

90

[quote]therajraj wrote:
If she opposes all current mainstream feminist opinions, is she still a feminist?

[/quote]

That’s a good question, Raj. People within the movement certainly don’t want to claim Paglia. And they wouldn’t want to claim the psychologist who wrote the book Push referenced either. And conservative women like myself find ourselves really at odds with a lot of the “solutions” to the problems. Federally funded daycare programs is a big issue, for example.

I think there are many women who might be concerned with the treatment of women in the developing world, be concerned with the high abortion rate of female babies, be concerned with rape in India, the bombing of school buses with little girls on them because they don’t want to let women be educated in Afghanistan… Yet they don’t relate to the current feminist movement in the US.

Also, there are some women who are concerned with women’s rights in very select areas. Like maybe they want to see reform in their very patriarchal church, where they think women should be able to serve more, or be pastors, or whatever. Something like that, where they may not define themselves as feminists in any other context.

91

[quote]pushharder wrote:

This is asinine beyond words. Yes, you and Paglia are correct in that the movement gets so discredited by this nonsensical tomfoolery.

They have fabricated their own dismissal. Idiots. They think they can win the “war” by shooting their own selves in the foot.
[/quote]

How do people come up with this stuff? I’m for equal rights, but why do we have a “war” as you say to begin with? I’m not above a woman simply because I’m a man and I wouldn’t expect a woman to feel above me simply because she is a woman. We should have equal pay, we should have equal rights, and we should have equality of opportunity. In 2014 we are closer to having that than at any other time in American history.

If we are having a war I don’t want to be an enlisted soldier nor do I know which team to root for nor do I have any idea why the war exists. Thank god we have some common sense women who realize that certain things help causes and certain things hurt them and stuff like this hurts more than helps.

92

There is a war because men had nature on their side.

There is a sex drive.

Woman has sex, gets pregnant. Man does not.

Woman, already physically weaker in general, is increasingly slowed down to pregnancy. Man, not slowed down, keeps going.

Birth. Woman, able to lactate, keeps the child nearby, which keeps her available to nurse. Man keeps going.

Enter birth control, abortion, and modern economies.

Begin full-fledged equal opportunity and ability to get into, and stay in, the workforce.

Masculine isn’t needed. Displaced traits with which nature hasn’t caught up to edit out. Yet.

93

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
And now I have to wonder why that bothers me. People gotta do their thing, and all that. [/quote]

You really answer yourself here IMO.

I think it bothers you because her just being herself is an otherwise wonderful, yet very un-special, typical thing. And now she is trying to make HER thing, that is special to her, special to everyone. And she is covering all her bases so she can judge those that don’t see her for her specialness, by making her special thing a “cause”. Because anyone who doesn’t fight for a “cause” is able to be judged in our society.

But the cold reality is she is no better than anyone else, an individual in a sea of them, doing their thing.

94

[quote]Sloth wrote:
There is a war because men had nature on their side.

There is a sex drive.

Woman has sex, gets pregnant. Man does not.

Woman, already physically weaker in general, is increasingly slowed down to pregnancy. Man, not slowed down, keeps going.

Birth. Woman, able to lactate, keeps the child nearby, which keeps her available to nurse. Man keeps going.

Enter birth control, abortion, and modern economies.

Begin full-fledged equal opportunity and ability to get into, and stay in, the workforce.

Masculine isn’t needed. Displaced traits with which nature hasn’t caught up to edit out. Yet.

[/quote]

I don’t see why a war needs to exist simply because my soon to be wife can get pregnant and I cannot. That doesn’t make much sense.

My fiance deserves to be paid the same as a man who does the same job with the same qualifications as her. She deserves to have all political opportunities I have. She has absolutely every right to be able to work and make her own individual choices in our free society. She should have no expectations to play some magical put in her place kitchen role from the 1950’s. I’m allowed to cook as well. This isn’t complicated. She is not submissive to me as some religions want to think. It is both of our jobs to make each other happy. It is both of our jobs to be committed. We don’t need some ancient set of rules to know that.

At no point would I expect her ever to feel “better” than me simply because she is a female. At no point would I ever feel “better” than her because I am male.

Both of those situations are just fucking stupid. I can lift more than her. She is more creative than me. We have differences. None of those differences should be in regards to freedom. Women and men don’t really need to fight about this. Women and men don’t need to act like they don’t need each other. Neither side needs to act superior based on the set of genitals they came out with.

It’s not difficult at all. Again, if some war exists it is the most senseless and pointless non violent war of all time. And I have no idea why men OR women are participating. It just isn’t that complicated!

95

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
There is a war because men had nature on their side.

There is a sex drive.

Woman has sex, gets pregnant. Man does not.

Woman, already physically weaker in general, is increasingly slowed down to pregnancy. Man, not slowed down, keeps going.

Birth. Woman, able to lactate, keeps the child nearby, which keeps her available to nurse. Man keeps going.

Enter birth control, abortion, and modern economies.

Begin full-fledged equal opportunity and ability to get into, and stay in, the workforce.

Masculine isn’t needed. Displaced traits with which nature hasn’t caught up to edit out. Yet.

[/quote]

I don’t see why a war needs to exist simply because my soon to be wife can get pregnant and I cannot. That doesn’t make much sense.

My fiance deserves to be paid the same as a man who does the same job with the same qualifications as her. She deserves to have all political opportunities I have. She has absolutely every right to be able to work and make her own individual choices in our free society. She should have no expectations to play some magical put in her place kitchen role from the 1950’s. I’m allowed to cook as well. This isn’t complicated. She is not submissive to me as some religions want to think. It is both of our jobs to make each other happy. It is both of our jobs to be committed. We don’t need some ancient set of rules to know that.

At no point would I expect her ever to feel “better” than me simply because she is a female. At no point would I ever feel “better” than her because I am male.

Both of those situations are just fucking stupid. I can lift more than her. She is more creative than me. We have differences. None of those differences should be in regards to freedom. Women and men don’t really need to fight about this. Women and men don’t need to act like they don’t need each other. Neither side needs to act superior based on the set of genitals they came out with.

It’s not difficult at all. Again, if some war exists it is the most senseless and pointless non violent war of all time. And I have no idea why men OR women are participating. It just isn’t that complicated! [/quote]

/Shrug
I’m not the one doing these threads.

They’re worried about it, and I’m just telling them to get used to it.

They could always define masculine virtue solely as the ability for the average man to lift more weight than the average woman.

96

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
There is a war because men had nature on their side.

There is a sex drive.

Woman has sex, gets pregnant. Man does not.

Woman, already physically weaker in general, is increasingly slowed down to pregnancy. Man, not slowed down, keeps going.

Birth. Woman, able to lactate, keeps the child nearby, which keeps her available to nurse. Man keeps going.

Enter birth control, abortion, and modern economies.

Begin full-fledged equal opportunity and ability to get into, and stay in, the workforce.

Masculine isn’t needed. Displaced traits with which nature hasn’t caught up to edit out. Yet.

[/quote]

I don’t see why a war needs to exist simply because my soon to be wife can get pregnant and I cannot. That doesn’t make much sense.

My fiance deserves to be paid the same as a man who does the same job with the same qualifications as her. She deserves to have all political opportunities I have. She has absolutely every right to be able to work and make her own individual choices in our free society. She should have no expectations to play some magical put in her place kitchen role from the 1950’s. I’m allowed to cook as well. This isn’t complicated. She is not submissive to me as some religions want to think. It is both of our jobs to make each other happy. It is both of our jobs to be committed. We don’t need some ancient set of rules to know that.

At no point would I expect her ever to feel “better” than me simply because she is a female. At no point would I ever feel “better” than her because I am male.

Both of those situations are just fucking stupid. I can lift more than her. She is more creative than me. We have differences. None of those differences should be in regards to freedom. Women and men don’t really need to fight about this. Women and men don’t need to act like they don’t need each other. Neither side needs to act superior based on the set of genitals they came out with.

It’s not difficult at all. Again, if some war exists it is the most senseless and pointless non violent war of all time. And I have no idea why men OR women are participating. It just isn’t that complicated! [/quote]

/Shrug
I’m not the one doing these threads.

They’re worried about it, and I’m just telling them to get used to it.

They could always define masculine virtue solely as the ability for the average man to lift more weight than the woman. [/quote]

Didn’t say you were. Was just stating how I feel.

FWIW my fiance’s boss has been “coaching” her on how to be a submissive (by that I mean I always get my way) wife and making sure she does all this shit all the time for me because it is a woman’s job. I actually take offense at that as it’s not how I want my fiance to act at all. Luckily she is a hard headed fuck that type of girl so we have the relationship we want anyways. I just find it weird how much this women feels like she needs to make sure my fiance knows about the “wife” role.

So it’s not JUST feminists holding us back, it’s the people who think in this backwards manner as well. And some of them are still women.

I don’t see how people find anything wrong with what I posted above, but I’m sure some do.

Like jj says full of shit as usual…:slight_smile:

98

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

There was one girl in particular that I would hang out with a little bit on breaks. She wore predictably dumpy and disheveled clothes, a purposefully bad hair cut (shaved sides, floppy on top- but chopped up and crappy looking) a couple of random facial piercings and some of the worst and ugliest tattoos I’d ever seen, and I know people with some pretty badly done prison tats.

Somewhere in each conversation she would have to interject “Cause you know, I’m a lesbian so…” [/quote]

you goin to school with beth?

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

The other thing was that I kept wondering “Why does she keep talking to me?”. I’m pretty mundane looking and don’t have anything going on that would be considered even remotely interesting to the 19-20 something crowd.
[/quote]

chicks fantasize about older men. especially the lesbians. more than likely her father wasn’t around much growing up. ask her.

but she’ll try to turn it into you’re a misogynist. tell her you used to be, but then you found out it was just a front for prostitution.

99

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

“But it is also a political choice. I refuse to conform to prescribed beauty conventions for the sake of conforming. I like messing with people’s ideas of gender identity. I take a certain delight in people’s discomfort when they realize they’ve just called me ‘sir’ but I’m actually female. Everyone deserves to be seen for themselves.”

[/quote]
This is the whole, “I don’t care what people think but I do care what they think,” attitude that is typical of people under the age of 25. They say they don’t care what people think about how they look yet do things to get attention. If you want short hair then wear it short and get on with your life. And I thought women matured more quickly. [/quote]

well. you have finally sunk to my way of thinking. please get back down on your level.

100

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
So many things struck a cord with me in that article.

She talks about the lack of military experience/diminished status of military service in the elite class now. "The entire elite class now, in finance, in politics and so on, none of them have military service - hardly anyone, there are a few. But there is no prestige attached to it anymore. [/quote]

Late to this party but this quote really struck a chord with me too. But I would go as far to ask how many people in general have military experience. Luckily we just had a 10 year war so we have more people with military experience. But ask around these parts regarding who’s got military experience and I wonder how many hands go up. But I could very well be wrong about that.

james