A Feminist Defense of Masculine Virtues

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Perhaps having women perform the lion share of domestic duties isn’t necessarily about men being “masculine” rather allowing women to be more “feminine”
[/quote]

Therefore, less “masculine.” Therefore, about men being more “masculine” relative to the now more “feminine” women.
[/quote]

Sorry, it just sounded like “Nooo, honey, me turning over laundry duties to you from now on isn’t for me. My goodness, how could you think such a thing of me. It’s for you!”

Ooozes masculine confidence!

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If “masculinity” means watching MMA, swearing, and initiating contact with the opposite sex…Well, women do that too, now. Increasingly. Neuterinity.
[/quote]

You say that like its a bad thing. That’s a turn on (except for the swearing, which I don’t care one way or the other about).

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If “masculinity” means watching MMA, swearing, and initiating contact with the opposite sex…Well, women do that too, now. Increasingly. Neuterinity.
[/quote]

You say that like its a bad thing. That’s a turn on (except for the swearing, which I don’t care one way or the other about).[/quote]

Alright.

But exactly what is this masculinity you folks are trying to save?

If it isn’t the Alpha Male household leadership role, nor customs and practices (liking/playing sports, working on engines, or going for an engineering degree), than what is it?

It’s amusing to me that we will readily say “I have genes for high cholesterol, I can’t help it” or “my whole family has bad circulation/heart problems/diabetes, I can’t help it” and yet the concept of ‘maleness’ or ‘typical male behavior’ somehow must be less intrinsic and more able to be overcome than these relatively new genetically influenced diseases.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
It’s amusing to me that we will readily say “I have genes for high cholesterol, I can’t help it” or “my whole family has bad circulation/heart problems/diabetes, I can’t help it” and yet the concept of ‘maleness’ or ‘typical male behavior’ somehow must be less intrinsic and more able to be overcome than these relatively new genetic disorders.
[/quote]

I’m of the opinion both examples you provided are products of both nature and environment

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
It’s amusing to me that we will readily say “I have genes for high cholesterol, I can’t help it” or “my whole family has bad circulation/heart problems/diabetes, I can’t help it” and yet the concept of ‘maleness’ or ‘typical male behavior’ somehow must be less intrinsic and more able to be overcome than these relatively new genetic disorders.
[/quote]

I’m of the opinion both examples you provided are products of both nature and environment [/quote]

They are. Bad choice of words. Perhaps “genetically influenced” then, since it is well accepted that there are genetic predispositions to high cholesterol and heart problems/cancer. The point was, however, that we readily make excuses about how we can’t help it because of our genes–when in fact we CAN do a part in at least mitigating the damage–and yet when something as deeply programmed as ‘maleness’ is discussed many many people believe it’s just a matter of better parenting or less guns in the house or whatever. They in fact reason the reverse of my examples, only with a much more genetically implanted concept. Hopefully that was clear.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote]

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote][/quote]

Oh geez. That just makes it worse.

I sold my guns a while back because I don’t have a safe to keep them in with very young kids in the house.

That makes me a sissy towel boy according to guys like Varq and Push.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote][/quote]

Oh geez. That just makes it worse.

I sold my guns a while back because I don’t have a safe to keep them in with very young kids in the house.

That makes me a sissy towel boy according to guys like Varq and Push.

[/quote]

Did you take away their water guns?

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote][/quote]

Oh geez. That just makes it worse.

I sold my guns a while back because I don’t have a safe to keep them in with very young kids in the house.

That makes me a sissy towel boy according to guys like Varq and Push.

[/quote]

Na. That’s a responsible action. Which my dad didn’t do that but he had put the fear of God in me if I touched a gun without his permission as a child and they were in a unfrequented part of the house. I work for a school district and we just recently (Christmas day in fact) had one of our Counselors lose their 6 year old girl after accidentally being shot with a pellet gun by her 13 year old brother. I have sense reevaluated my need to more properly secure my guns than my dad did.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote][/quote]

Oh geez. That just makes it worse.

I sold my guns a while back because I don’t have a safe to keep them in with very young kids in the house.

That makes me a sissy towel boy according to guys like Varq and Push.

[/quote]

Na. That’s a responsible action. Which my dad didn’t do that but he had put the fear of God in me if I touched a gun without his permission as a child and they were in a unfrequented part of the house. I work for a school district and we just recently (Christmas day in fact) had one of our Counselors lose their 6 year old girl after accidentally being shot with a pellet gun by her 13 year old brother. I have sense reevaluated my need to more properly secure my guns than my dad did.
[/quote]

For those of you who agree with this action, how many would do the same if they owned a pool?

1 kid dies for every 1 million guns

1 kid dies for every 11,000 residential pools.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote][/quote]

Oh geez. That just makes it worse.

I sold my guns a while back because I don’t have a safe to keep them in with very young kids in the house.

That makes me a sissy towel boy according to guys like Varq and Push.

[/quote]

Na. That’s a responsible action. Which my dad didn’t do that but he had put the fear of God in me if I touched a gun without his permission as a child and they were in a unfrequented part of the house. I work for a school district and we just recently (Christmas day in fact) had one of our Counselors lose their 6 year old girl after accidentally being shot with a pellet gun by her 13 year old brother. I have sense reevaluated my need to more properly secure my guns than my dad did.
[/quote]

For those of you who agree with this action, how many would do the same if they owned a pool?

1 kid dies for every 1 million guns

1 kid dies for every 11,000 residential pools.

[/quote]

Well let’s not get too far off the topic of this thread (please not a gun thread!). I see what you’re saying there and totally agree with you. Tragedies will always occur and there’s no need to go tilting windmills like so many crazy gun control people do. But, at the same time, it probably ought to make you think again if you’re a responsible person.

Now…back on topic maybe, yes?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

Here. What the above was a comment to.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The human condition and the innate drive towards competition and power is not going to change for Sally Soccer mom’s attempts to ban water pistols or super soakers that “might influence bad behavior”.[/quote][/quote]

Oh geez. That just makes it worse.

I sold my guns a while back because I don’t have a safe to keep them in with very young kids in the house.

That makes me a sissy towel boy according to guys like Varq and Push.

[/quote]

Na. That’s a responsible action. Which my dad didn’t do that but he had put the fear of God in me if I touched a gun without his permission as a child and they were in a unfrequented part of the house. I work for a school district and we just recently (Christmas day in fact) had one of our Counselors lose their 6 year old girl after accidentally being shot with a pellet gun by her 13 year old brother. I have sense reevaluated my need to more properly secure my guns than my dad did.
[/quote]

For those of you who agree with this action, how many would do the same if they owned a pool?

1 kid dies for every 1 million guns

1 kid dies for every 11,000 residential pools.

[/quote]

It’s standard property code here to have pools fenced with a locking gate. That being said, most people don’t lock them. At least one of those stories makes the news every summer. We had a backyard above ground pool at my grandparents when I was a teenager and it was locked when not in use. Unfortunately one time when it was in use my oldest brother dove in and slipped on the upper support rail, hitting his head off of the bottom with the full force of his body and breaking his neck. He’s been in a wheel chair paralyzed from the chest down for the past 26 years.

So, yeah, I’d lock it.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s not pretend there isn’t a large contingent of Samuel Soccer dads increasingly capable and willing to do just what Sally Soccer mom does. [/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I have been staying home and raising my son since a layoff in August.
[/quote]

There will be a lot of variation in how people choose to divide the work.

We often think of the he 50’s housewife model, but if you look at our more agrarian past, a lot of men and women were working together on the farm or running the store - it was more of a family effort. If Skyszyks was a farmer back then, he’d likely have his son along side him in the fields for most of the day from a very early age, and very likely his wife and daughters too. Raising your kid, not exactly a feminine domain.

These days, division of labor is often based on who has the best health benefits, or most flexible work schedule, earning potential, etc… Also, people decide childcare based on the presence of extended family, if there are grandparents around who are willing to help or if the nuclear family is more isolated, living away from relatives.

Most people would probably ideally have a lot of flexibility in their work schedule so they could share in influencing their kids, be around to impart their ethics. Of course, that isn’t always the reality. People have to commute to the office, then often spend long days there. I’m not a Luddite, pining for Little House on the Prairie, just pointing out that these shifts have effected both men and women.

As far as division of labor, you can’t get too retrograde about what is “masculine” or “feminine”. Not many of us are living on a farm or ranch where their are a bunch of physically demanding tasks like cattle to brand, and woodpiles to chop. So, you might find more men scrubbing the shower, or cooking or whatever…tasks that might have been “women’s work” in the 50’s. Most of you probably do more of these tasks than your fathers?

Back to the article, I did appreciate Paglia’s pointing out that as a society we are often trying to squelch the masculine, medicating boyness/ failing a lot of active boys in elementary school. I know this has been talked about in other threads, and I’ve mentioned before how I saw this first hand as a young school psychologist in the early 90’s - the explosion of ADHD.

I also appreciated her talking about this idea that some of the more masculine attitudes and traits are negative, or are somehow not based in biology, but are rather a product of socialization that we can “fix”. All nurture. Disregard for biology. Also, that we are failing young girls by telling them that they can “have it all”. Nobody gets to have it all. There are always choices. So many young women are now waiting to have children until their fertility has diminished. We can look at the increase in Autism among children born to older parents. There are always unintended consequences.

This article just drove me nuts, so I have to vent a little.

Why Patriarchy Fears the Scissors: For Women, Short Hair is a Political Statement

I came across it after a friend of mine linked to it, after writing this on her facebook wall.

"…I’ve had short hair most of my adult life. Sometimes extremely short (including a #2 buzz for over a year). I have many reasons for wearing it short. It’s easier to manage. I think it looks better on me than long hair. Among others.

But it is also a political choice. I refuse to conform to prescribed beauty conventions for the sake of conforming. I like messing with people’s ideas of gender identity. I take a certain delight in people’s discomfort when they realize they’ve just called me ‘sir’ but I’m actually female. Everyone deserves to be seen for themselves. I find my short hair helps me get that respect, especially when it came to dating. And I suspect that the cumulative effect of having more people in the world who consciously choose not to conform to this kind of social expectation will be that our society will get better at seeing people for who they are rather than for how well they enact their prescribed identity."

Apparently, this is the kind of thing feminists in America are concerned with, talking about how your short hair is a political statement. It made me wonder what these women think of me. I suppose my long hair is making a political statement, perhaps in the opposite direction? Enacting my prescribed gender identity. Behaving as if sexual attention from men is my top priority? Good grief. I am done.

That article reminded me of this quote from the Paglia article I linked to at the beginning of this thread.

"…More important, Ms. Paglia says, if the women’s movement wants to be taken seriously again, it should tackle serious matters, like rape in India and honor killings in the Muslim world, that are “more of an outrage than some woman going on a date on the Brown University campus.”

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
This article just drove me nuts, so I have to vent a little.

Why Patriarchy Fears the Scissors: For Women, Short Hair is a Political Statement

http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/2014/01/why-patriarchy-fears-scissors-women-short-hair-political-statement

I came across it after a friend of mine linked to it, after writing this on her facebook wall.

"…I’ve had short hair most of my adult life. Sometimes extremely short (including a #2 buzz for over a year). I have many reasons for wearing it short. It’s easier to manage. I think it looks better on me than long hair. Among others.

But it is also a political choice. I refuse to conform to prescribed beauty conventions for the sake of conforming. I like messing with people’s ideas of gender identity. I take a certain delight in people’s discomfort when they realize they’ve just called me ‘sir’ but I’m actually female. Everyone deserves to be seen for themselves. I find my short hair helps me get that respect, especially when it came to dating. And I suspect that the cumulative effect of having more people in the world who consciously choose not to conform to this kind of social expectation will be that our society will get better at seeing people for who they are rather than for how well they enact their prescribed identity."

[/quote]

This is asinine beyond words. Yes, you and Paglia are correct in that the movement gets so discredited by this nonsensical tomfoolery.

They have fabricated their own dismissal. Idiots. They think they can win the “war” by shooting their own selves in the foot.
[/quote]

It reminded me of women wearing power suits with big shoulder pads back in the 80’s, looking like men - I thought we were past that.

And sometimes a haircut is just a haircut. Who cares, right? Unless it’s a “political statement” and then it just makes me mad. She wrote something earlier last year about how she was no longer going to wear makeup. I guess it’s a form of “selling your soul” to want to be attractive. :slight_smile: In fact, if you aren’t making yourself as unattractive as possible, you probably have a low IQ.

I think you are right about the “shooting themselves in the foot” part. If you want your ideas to appeal to mainstream people, going with a #2 buzz probably isn’t the way to go.

I need to get over it, but it’s a little sad for me. This woman is close friends with my best friend. She’s very smart, and is actually really nice. She has an English degree and was really fun in a book group we had going a couple of years ago, back in her grad school days. I remember when she buzzed her hair. She was single and about 30 at the time, and The Mister and I both agreed it was a little crazy to do that when you are trying to meet someone, because most men would read “lesbian”.

Sigh… Oh, well. Time to shampoo my Victoria’s Secret model hair… LOL!