[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I am sick of people from 49 states deciding how I should live my life.
- Brother [/quote]
Yeah, FUCK America, right?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Chushin wrote:How is your mess “inconsequential,” when it results in the same “tendency for people to die?” Or do your soldiers only kill the “bad” people in Afghanistan?
…this is the reason why dutch troops are in Afghanistan: Task Force Uruzgan - Wikipedia
So let me get this straight.
The Dutch people have fucked up so badly that they have a non-democratic, weak, corrupt government in power. Said government willingly and actively participates in what you term the warmongering-based killing of innocents.
And you feel justified in coming on here and pontificating about all the various character flaws and naivete of the American people that make them willing warmongers?
…yes, because when the USA invaded Iraq millions of people throughout the planet took to the streets to protest against that war. The majority of the dutch was against our involvement with the war in Afghanistan and still they were sent. Our politicians [and yours for that matter] ignore the people when the wishes of the people contradict theirs…
See the hypocrisy there, ephrem? Does that matter to you at all?
So, in summary, the result of all that supposed superiority that you Europeans possess has been that you’re willing to suck dick (to use your vulgar expression) when told to do so.
Hell, maybe we ARE both engaged in the same illicit act, but at least WE aren’t on our knees.
…instead you’re supporting the murder of innocent women and children, justified by lies and deceipt, that’s based on a fairytale that anything the USA does is righteous and God-given. We, Europe and the UN, fucked this up royally, but as you remember, Bush’ invasion of Iraq went ahead with or without help from the international community. It was a sad day for all of us…[/quote]
al-Qaida would agree with everything you posted.
Their out giving political on how to make amends for being in Afghanistan.
Not a bad time to rally the Germans to vote exacty how the Muslim brethren tell you in the upcoming elections. "if Germans do not vote for a change of government, there will be a “bad awakening” after the election. "
…without a majority in the House the winning party was forced in to opposition while the runners up managed to force a coalition with minor parties and became the government. Nice huh?
[quote]Hell, maybe we ARE both engaged in the same illicit act, but at least WE aren’t on our knees.
…instead you’re supporting the murder of innocent women and children, justified by lies and deceipt, that’s based on a fairytale that anything the USA does is righteous and God-given.
Christ on a popsicle stick. Where do you get this shit? Americans believe “that anything the USA does is righteous and God-given???” WHERE do you get this? Please, how many Americans do you know? (Sorry, the ones you’ve met via the media and the internet don’t count.) Seems to me you’re nothing more than a bigot with an internet degree in US Studies.[/quote]
…does Manifest Destiny ring a bell?
[quote]Why don’t you just say “I hate America” and be done with it? I’m sure you’ll feel much better.
The crap you write reads some like cold-war communist propaganda tract. The only phrase you forgot here was “imperialist pigs.” I’m sure it was just an oversight, for which you’ll soon make up.
Tell you what.
It has become clear to me that, although you’ve never set foot on US soil, you are irrevocably convinced that Americans are naive, selfish, self-righteous, greedy, cold-blooded, lying, deceitful murderers who are intolerant of differences in others.
I wouldn’t want to be you; so absolutely sure that it’s all America’s fault, unable to hold a more nuanced view, and completely unable to change anything.
I think I’ll just leave you to stew in the frustration that there’s not a goddamned thing you can do to stop us evil boogey-man Yanks.
Kinda sucks for you, I’d imagine.
But then again, being a biased, prejudicial bigot has its cost…
I’m done talking to the wall that is you. [/quote]
…fine, be like that, lol. Leave with your blinders on, and just act as if all is just peachy with the world just as long the US is fighting for our freedoms and democracy. I repeat: i’m convinced that on a personal level you and i are just doing our thing to get by in life, and actually share many similarities and ideas, with one glaring exception: that deep seated cultural and emotional ties to national identity is the sure fire way to be manipulated in to actions, or to agree with actions, that otherwise would abhor you.
Anyway, all the best and goodnight
[/quote]
[quote]Tokoya wrote:al-Qaida would agree with everything you posted.
Their out giving political on how to make amends for being in Afghanistan.
Not a bad time to rally the Germans to vote exacty how the Muslim brethren tell you in the upcoming elections. "if Germans do not vote for a change of government, there will be a “bad awakening” after the election. " [/quote]
…good, let that bad awakening happen. I’m not happy with muslims threatning the democratic process, and everything they do to disrupt that process will only decrease the chances of islam gaining political power…
…see, altough i speak out against western involvement in the middle east, i’m not speaking in favor of islam. In fact, i’m all for a much tougher stance on issues that comprimises the democratic principles and even seek to overthrow those principles…
…things are simply not as black and white as you might think…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Tokoya wrote:al-Qaida would agree with everything you posted.
Their out giving political on how to make amends for being in Afghanistan.
Not a bad time to rally the Germans to vote exacty how the Muslim brethren tell you in the upcoming elections. "if Germans do not vote for a change of government, there will be a “bad awakening” after the election. "
…good, let that bad awakening happen. I’m not happy with muslims threatning the democratic process, and everything they do to disrupt that process will only decrease the chances of islam gaining political power…
…see, altough i speak out against western involvement in the middle east, i’m not speaking in favor of islam. In fact, i’m all for a much tougher stance on issues that comprimises the democratic principles and even seek to overthrow those principles…
…things are simply not as black and white as you might think…
[/quote]
Yes, it’s a shame that radical islam does not allow for the grey. Not sure you really want that “bad awakening” though. If it did and the Euopeans felt it was important to remember the day of the terrorist attack ~ and bristled at those that said they after 8 years should “move on” “get over it” ~ I’d understand how they felt. I think gets to the heart of what started this thread.
[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Yes, it’s a shame that radical islam does not allow for the grey. Not sure you really want that “bad awakening” though. If it did and the Euopeans felt it was important to remember the day of the terrorist attack ~ and bristled at those that said they after 8 years should “move on” “get over it” ~ I’d understand how they felt. I think gets to the heart of what started this thread.
[/quote]
…Europe’s seen it’s share of muslim suicide attacks and killings Tokoya, don’t you remember?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:I think I understand you. Whether you understand me is an open question.
I will be clear: you in Europe do not occupy a higher moral plane by virtue of some accident of birth. You have contended otherwise.
…i’ve done no such thing. What i said was that we are better equiped at looking beyond our cultural indoctrinations due to past experiences, and recognize how politics can manipulate our thoughprocesses…
[/quote]
Thanks. You have made my point for me: you believe that it is a birthright of Western Europeans to assume that they have a superior moral position.
ANd this is not a form of arrogance, blindness and group-think?
…bin Laden, and what about his commanders, his lieutenants and trainers and bag-men? And his infrastructure, the entire supporting thug-state of the Taliban?..or is that somehow off the list? I see that, in your attempt to answer my rhetorical question, you will not be able to make a fine European abstract moral distinction. Like orion, who agreed that “some bastards need bombing,” can you define the moral limits of your position? And from what superior European moral aerie do you presume to judge?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Yes, it’s a shame that radical islam does not allow for the grey. Not sure you really want that “bad awakening” though. If it did and the Euopeans felt it was important to remember the day of the terrorist attack ~ and bristled at those that said they after 8 years should “move on” “get over it” ~ I’d understand how they felt. I think gets to the heart of what started this thread.
…Europe’s seen it’s share of muslim suicide attacks and killings Tokoya, don’t you remember?
[/quote]
Absolutely. Would never think of telling them to “get over” or “just move on” from the horrible memories of what happend in London, Madrid ~ or suggest that had it coming for having troops in Afghanistan. Or equate the efforts their troops were making over there to actions of nazis, SS. You see me working here and get my point I’m sure.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Now here is my anti thesis:
Calling everyone a Nazi, no matter where he comes from or stands politically who opposes state sponsored mass murder by the US really helps to avoid taking a long hard look in the mirror.
Amen, brother!
I wouldn’t be all that proud to be his twin if I were you.[/quote]
Chicks dig it.
The rugged individualism does it for them.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Look, either half of Germany went hardcore sociopath on us because of mysterious cosmic rays in early 1930 or it can happen anywhere, anytime.
Nah, it’s all about culture and values.
It happened in Germany and Austria for a reason.
You yourself are, to this very day, a walking testament to the arrogant, elitist, superiority-complex-tainted elements of the Germanic psyche that made it possible.
Fortunately, SOME Germans and Austrians have learned something from their countries’ past behavior.
And it is NOT that arrogance of a different flavor is the answer.
But Darling I am not an apologist for state mass murder.
…
Oh, but you are!
You compare moral positions which are not even apposite in order to buttress your ideology that morality has not absolutes.
There is no comparison to be made with Germans and Austrians in WWII–many of whom volunteered to execute their nations’ explicitly stated objective to murder, by the tens of thousands, unarmed innocents–with US forces which take pains in combat to spare innocents.
Yes, yes, yes…I understand your pathetic plaint that it makes no difference to the innocent dead why the bombs fell or for whom they were intended. But it should make a difference to those who presume to judge. And an amoral judge you are, who allows for the moral equivalency of those who murder for ideology, and those who abhor it. Remember: you agreed, about two years ago, that “some bastards need bombing,” but when challenged you could not produce criteria for that distinction. You cannot pretend to occupy a higher moral plane after expressing your confused moral state.
And please, do not bother to answer me. You have nothing to say, especially if it is rooted in that crap from the Austrian School Of Crappy Ideology.
And again:
What I have learned from WWII is that using killing to spread your ideology will not do.
What people like you have learned is to make up new flimsy excuses for mass murder and claim that they are entirely different from all the BS that was spouted before by anyone elsw to justify mass murder, torture and the destruction of freedom.
Now I even do agree that my stance is an ideological one, but so is yours and it is far closer to that of the Nazis, if we have to drag them into this.
Noone cares whether you killed him in the name of racial purity or the spreading of freedom.
They are completely unable to care, dead as they are.
Plus, the “oh but you do”! is completely nonsense." I do not advocate state mass murder period. Even if I though that the Nazis had been just swell I would not advocate murder unless I called for doing it all over again.
You on the other hand justify murder that goes on right now.
I point out that you and I are both capable of making judgments without offering inapposite comparisons.
I am not justifying any murder any more than you.
You, however, are offering an apologia for Nazis–“everyone is like this!”–especially Americans, it would seem.
It is a necessity of (some) Europeans-left or right–to find moral flaws in others, and inflate or distort them, in order to exculpate themselves from the Nazi ideology of contorted morality and murder…
Stop. Me thinks you miss the point.
His claim is that if Nazis are capable of murdering for their ideology then so are the exceptional Americans…because we all know their brand of democracy and freedom is the bestest and therefore more valid than Hitlers – thus your claim that it is an inapposite comparrison.
Which proves you don’t get it.
People can be motivated by ideas. Even bad ones.
Americans, Nazis, and terrorists are not different in that regard. And you do justify killing in the name of Freedom and Democracy which was his point.
And “methinks” you are beyond help.[/quote]
You left out that he is an IDEOLOGUE.
Meaning, he disagrees with you and you have no valid argument,
Because you do think that your ideas justify killing, do you not?
[quote]orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Look, either half of Germany went hardcore sociopath on us because of mysterious cosmic rays in early 1930 or it can happen anywhere, anytime.
Nah, it’s all about culture and values.
It happened in Germany and Austria for a reason.
You yourself are, to this very day, a walking testament to the arrogant, elitist, superiority-complex-tainted elements of the Germanic psyche that made it possible.
Fortunately, SOME Germans and Austrians have learned something from their countries’ past behavior.
And it is NOT that arrogance of a different flavor is the answer.
But Darling I am not an apologist for state mass murder.
…
Oh, but you are!
You compare moral positions which are not even apposite in order to buttress your ideology that morality has not absolutes.
There is no comparison to be made with Germans and Austrians in WWII–many of whom volunteered to execute their nations’ explicitly stated objective to murder, by the tens of thousands, unarmed innocents–with US forces which take pains in combat to spare innocents.
Yes, yes, yes…I understand your pathetic plaint that it makes no difference to the innocent dead why the bombs fell or for whom they were intended. But it should make a difference to those who presume to judge. And an amoral judge you are, who allows for the moral equivalency of those who murder for ideology, and those who abhor it. Remember: you agreed, about two years ago, that “some bastards need bombing,” but when challenged you could not produce criteria for that distinction. You cannot pretend to occupy a higher moral plane after expressing your confused moral state.
And please, do not bother to answer me. You have nothing to say, especially if it is rooted in that crap from the Austrian School Of Crappy Ideology.
And again:
What I have learned from WWII is that using killing to spread your ideology will not do.
What people like you have learned is to make up new flimsy excuses for mass murder and claim that they are entirely different from all the BS that was spouted before by anyone elsw to justify mass murder, torture and the destruction of freedom.
Now I even do agree that my stance is an ideological one, but so is yours and it is far closer to that of the Nazis, if we have to drag them into this.
Noone cares whether you killed him in the name of racial purity or the spreading of freedom.
They are completely unable to care, dead as they are.
Plus, the “oh but you do”! is completely nonsense." I do not advocate state mass murder period. Even if I though that the Nazis had been just swell I would not advocate murder unless I called for doing it all over again.
You on the other hand justify murder that goes on right now.
I point out that you and I are both capable of making judgments without offering inapposite comparisons.
I am not justifying any murder any more than you.
You, however, are offering an apologia for Nazis–“everyone is like this!”–especially Americans, it would seem.
It is a necessity of (some) Europeans-left or right–to find moral flaws in others, and inflate or distort them, in order to exculpate themselves from the Nazi ideology of contorted morality and murder…
Stop. Me thinks you miss the point.
His claim is that if Nazis are capable of murdering for their ideology then so are the exceptional Americans…because we all know their brand of democracy and freedom is the bestest and therefore more valid than Hitlers – thus your claim that it is an inapposite comparrison.
Which proves you don’t get it.
People can be motivated by ideas. Even bad ones.
Americans, Nazis, and terrorists are not different in that regard. And you do justify killing in the name of Freedom and Democracy which was his point.
And “methinks” you are beyond help.
You left out that he is an IDEOLOGUE.
Meaning, he disagrees with you and you have no valid argument,
Because you do think that your ideas justify killing, do you not?
[/quote]
I am so sorry, but, you, who are proficient at finding “straw men” where there are none, kindly point out to me where, in this thread, I “justify killing in the name of Freedom and Democracy?”
LM is beyond help, which is why he keeps such good company with you.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
ephrem wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:I think I understand you. Whether you understand me is an open question.
I will be clear: you in Europe do not occupy a higher moral plane by virtue of some accident of birth. You have contended otherwise.
…i’ve done no such thing. What i said was that we are better equiped at looking beyond our cultural indoctrinations due to past experiences, and recognize how politics can manipulate our thoughprocesses…
Thanks. You have made my point for me: you believe that it is a birthright of Western Europeans to assume that they have a superior moral position.
ANd this is not a form of arrogance, blindness and group-think?[/quote]
…i don’t think the ability to looking beyond our cultural indoctrinations due to past experiences, and recognizing how politics can manipulate our thoughprocesses is limited to Europe. It also means that our flaws and shortcomings are very visible, and that we’re aware of them. So to answer your question: No, i don’t think that, but i do think your projecting…
…the lesson Vietnam should’ve taught you is that you can’t win a guerilla war. Al-Quaida isn’t a country, it’s an idea. You can’t fight an idea, but you can find and arrest the supposed figure-head. Little of what the USA has done these past 7 years has eradicated the terrorist threat, like the Allies winning WW2 did to the Nazis. It’s a Pyrrhus victory, if it ever comes to that…
[quote]Tokoya wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Yes, it’s a shame that radical islam does not allow for the grey. Not sure you really want that “bad awakening” though. If it did and the Euopeans felt it was important to remember the day of the terrorist attack ~ and bristled at those that said they after 8 years should “move on” “get over it” ~ I’d understand how they felt. I think gets to the heart of what started this thread.
…Europe’s seen it’s share of muslim suicide attacks and killings Tokoya, don’t you remember?
Absolutely. Would never think of telling them to “get over” or “just move on” from the horrible memories of what happend in London, Madrid ~ or suggest that had it coming for having troops in Afghanistan. Or equate the efforts their troops were making over there to actions of nazis, SS. You see me working here and get my point I’m sure. [/quote]
…i do, and i’m confident that in no way, in this thread, i’m guilty of what you just accused me of…
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…no, you had every right to go into Afghanistan, seek out Bin Laden and bring him to justice. Sadly that hasn’t been the case…
Of course! Because all sane people realize that Bin Laden is a one man show and the only individual and entity to be sought out. Eph, you must have typed that from a coffee shop in Dam Square, heh?[/quote]
…no, we all know he was the fall guy, the McGuffin if you will…
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…the lesson Vietnam should’ve taught you is that you can’t win a guerilla war…
Wrong. The lesson Vietnam should’ve taught us is that you can’t win a guerilla war the way we attempted to in Vietnam. With one intentionally broken leg, one arm tied behind our back, blindfolded and ear plugs in.
Know your history, eph, before you swagger around on this forum. I simply can’t abide history dunces yapping and expecting to be taken seriously.
Guerrilla wars can and have been won. They just take different strategies and tactics than conventional wars.[/quote]
…yeah, good luck with that…
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…no, you had every right to go into Afghanistan, seek out Bin Laden and bring him to justice. Sadly that hasn’t been the case…
Of course! Because all sane people realize that Bin Laden is a one man show and the only individual and entity to be sought out. Eph, you must have typed that from a coffee shop in Dam Square, heh?
…no, we all know he was the fall guy, the McGuffin if you will…
What kind of an answer is that?[/quote]
…i was agreeing with you for once…