[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Look, either half of Germany went hardcore sociopath on us because of mysterious cosmic rays in early 1930 or it can happen anywhere, anytime.
Nah, it’s all about culture and values.
It happened in Germany and Austria for a reason.
You yourself are, to this very day, a walking testament to the arrogant, elitist, superiority-complex-tainted elements of the Germanic psyche that made it possible.
Fortunately, SOME Germans and Austrians have learned something from their countries’ past behavior.
And it is NOT that arrogance of a different flavor is the answer.
But Darling I am not an apologist for state mass murder.
…
Oh, but you are!
You compare moral positions which are not even apposite in order to buttress your ideology that morality has not absolutes.
There is no comparison to be made with Germans and Austrians in WWII–many of whom volunteered to execute their nations’ explicitly stated objective to murder, by the tens of thousands, unarmed innocents–with US forces which take pains in combat to spare innocents.
Yes, yes, yes…I understand your pathetic plaint that it makes no difference to the innocent dead why the bombs fell or for whom they were intended. But it should make a difference to those who presume to judge. And an amoral judge you are, who allows for the moral equivalency of those who murder for ideology, and those who abhor it. Remember: you agreed, about two years ago, that “some bastards need bombing,” but when challenged you could not produce criteria for that distinction. You cannot pretend to occupy a higher moral plane after expressing your confused moral state.
And please, do not bother to answer me. You have nothing to say, especially if it is rooted in that crap from the Austrian School Of Crappy Ideology.
And again:
What I have learned from WWII is that using killing to spread your ideology will not do.
What people like you have learned is to make up new flimsy excuses for mass murder and claim that they are entirely different from all the BS that was spouted before by anyone elsw to justify mass murder, torture and the destruction of freedom.
Now I even do agree that my stance is an ideological one, but so is yours and it is far closer to that of the Nazis, if we have to drag them into this.
Noone cares whether you killed him in the name of racial purity or the spreading of freedom.
They are completely unable to care, dead as they are.
Plus, the “oh but you do”! is completely nonsense." I do not advocate state mass murder period. Even if I though that the Nazis had been just swell I would not advocate murder unless I called for doing it all over again.
You on the other hand justify murder that goes on right now.
I point out that you and I are both capable of making judgments without offering inapposite comparisons.
I am not justifying any murder any more than you.
You, however, are offering an apologia for Nazis–“everyone is like this!”–especially Americans, it would seem.
It is a necessity of (some) Europeans-left or right–to find moral flaws in others, and inflate or distort them, in order to exculpate themselves from the Nazi ideology of contorted morality and murder. This is moral inversion, rampant. (Witness Ephrem, above.) Or the exculpation may be expressed in your contention that Fascist murder can occur anywhere, anytime. Not so; any reader of the German Enlightenment and its denouement, would understand otherwise.
(Perhaps this is a perspective that you, and possibly Ephrem, cannot enjoy, since you are not exposed to travel outside the confines–intellectual and moral, not geographic–of your Continent.)
To be clear, in a thread about 9/11, the murderers on the three airplanes were not brave; they were cowards attacking unarmed civilians. They were not reasonable, offering negotiations; they were fanatics only, motivated to kill the innocent to make some ideologic point. Their objective was murder of innocents. Period.
Perhaps it would suit your particular ideology, orion, that the US should have allowed Al Qaeda to continue to murder our citizens, a few thousand at a time, untroubled by any attempt at defense in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Perhaps you think that the US should not protect its citizens, in order to avoid what you call “mass murder right now.” That perverse apology is the apex of moral inversion, wherein innocents are killed, in mass, because of a lack of will to defend them. [/quote]
There is no apology for Nazi-ism, there does not need to be one.
It is a combination of militarism, some sort of belief that you are a special people/nation/religion and that is usually enough for a few hardcore ideologues to drag a nation into war.
The only thing that makes them special is the industrial killing of their victims, but the Tutsis and Hutis managed to get into the hundreds of thousands with machetes.
The very idea that the Nazis were somehow especially evil denies the fact that comparable atrocities have been committed again and again and again, as they are now in the name of spreading freedom and democracy.
I would go as far as claiming that this is the natural order of things, it is rare that such a war is not going on somwhere.
