[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:…i wasn’t accusing you of anything you know, just stating that fact. Anyway, i asked you a question first remember? How have i benefitted from the wars?
Now i’ll do you a favor and go ahead and answer yours, if only to show you how it’s done. Here it comes: i’ve experienced no correlation in safety levels here in Holland between a healthy AQ and a severely wounded AQ. IOW, nothing changed…
It should go without saying that Islamic extremists have much, much easier access to Europe than North America but you’re still going to tell me that despite an Al Aqaeda that has been heavily wounded primarily by the U.S. that Europe enjoys no benefits? C’mon, eph, do I have to completely dismiss you here as irrelevant like I did Navajo Joe?
…it wouldn’t bother me if you did, but honestly Pushy, prior to 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, suicide bombthreats by muslims in Europe were virtually nonexistent. That changed, and you could argue that because AQ is severly wounded 8 years later we’re back to those levels [more or less], but i don’t know if we should thank you for that though…
…see what i mean?
I’m done with you, Eph. This is what happens when hashish is as easily available as cow’s milk, I guess.[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:…i wasn’t accusing you of anything you know, just stating that fact. Anyway, i asked you a question first remember? How have i benefitted from the wars?
Now i’ll do you a favor and go ahead and answer yours, if only to show you how it’s done. Here it comes: i’ve experienced no correlation in safety levels here in Holland between a healthy AQ and a severely wounded AQ. IOW, nothing changed…
It should go without saying that Islamic extremists have much, much easier access to Europe than North America but you’re still going to tell me that despite an Al Aqaeda that has been heavily wounded primarily by the U.S. that Europe enjoys no benefits? C’mon, eph, do I have to completely dismiss you here as irrelevant like I did Navajo Joe?
…it wouldn’t bother me if you did, but honestly Pushy, prior to 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, suicide bombthreats by muslims in Europe were virtually nonexistent. That changed, and you could argue that because AQ is severly wounded 8 years later we’re back to those levels [more or less], but i don’t know if we should thank you for that though…
…see what i mean?
I’m done with you, Eph. This is what happens when hashish is as easily available as cow’s milk, I guess.[/quote]
[quote]ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I mean honestly, eph, you can’t think of any reasons why a battered and severely wounded Al Qaeda would benefit a Dutchman?
Or the opposite? That a robust and vigorous Al Qaeda could possibly hurt a Dutchman and The Netherlands in general?
No thoughts to this effect, huh? Holland, all snug as a bug in a rug by the shores of the North Sea and it has NOTHING to do with America’s efforts against terrorism?
…i see you added some text. So tell me, were London, Madrid, Rabat, Mumbai and Bali safer after the invasions? I know they were safer before that, so what’s your point again?
[/quote]
You counterpoint that Bali was "safer before that (invasion)…The Bali bombings occurred on 12 October 2002 ~ that was before the US invasion of the country in 2003. How would that make your point they were “safer”?
As for the Mumbai bombing, the attackers were members of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based militant organization, considered a terrorist organization by India. Again, just the religion of peace doing what it truly excels at.
You left out the 1993 world trade center bombing. Why did you do that? Perhaps it’s because it was prior to the Iraq war.
[quote]Tokoya wrote:
You counterpoint that Bali was "safer before that (invasion)…The Bali bombings occurred on 12 October 2002 ~ that was before the US invasion of the country in 2003. How would that make your point they were “safer”?[/quote]
[quote]As for the Mumbai bombing, the attackers were members of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based militant organization, considered a terrorist organization by India. Again, just the religion of peace doing what it truly excels at.
You left out the 1993 world trade center bombing. Why did you do that? Perhaps it’s because it was prior to the Iraq war. [/quote]
…yes, radical islam poses a serious threat, and i fully support action that’s aimed at squashing that threat. I simply do not believe that Iraq played a role in that. I believe the invasion of Iraq exacarbated the issue and made an explosive situation even more volatile…
…i also believe that the USA, in it’s historic attempts to secure a foundation in foreign nations that benefitted them, share the responsability for the mindset that fuels the religious idiocy that compels people to be a suicidebomber…
…having said this, i realise that the only way to end this, is to see it through till the end. But please, please, stop pretending… fuck it, i’ve been over this a thousand times now and i shant bore you any longer. I’m starting to bore myself, lol. So goodnight, and all the best!
[quote]pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pushharder wrote:
ephrem wrote:…i wasn’t accusing you of anything you know, just stating that fact. Anyway, i asked you a question first remember? How have i benefitted from the wars?
Now i’ll do you a favor and go ahead and answer yours, if only to show you how it’s done. Here it comes: i’ve experienced no correlation in safety levels here in Holland between a healthy AQ and a severely wounded AQ. IOW, nothing changed…
It should go without saying that Islamic extremists have much, much easier access to Europe than North America but you’re still going to tell me that despite an Al Aqaeda that has been heavily wounded primarily by the U.S. that Europe enjoys no benefits? C’mon, eph, do I have to completely dismiss you here as irrelevant like I did Navajo Joe?
…it wouldn’t bother me if you did, but honestly Pushy, prior to 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, suicide bombthreats by muslims in Europe were virtually nonexistent. That changed, and you could argue that because AQ is severly wounded 8 years later we’re back to those levels [more or less], but i don’t know if we should thank you for that though…
…see what i mean?
I’m done with you, Eph. This is what happens when hashish is as easily available as cow’s milk, I guess.
Yay!!
Yes, you won. You won by being so overwhelmingly stupid I simply came to the conclusion that “If you argue with a fool, you will leave the argument feeling like a fool.” [/quote]
So you have grown in self-awareness.
As uncomfortable as that may be right now it can only be good in the long run.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
ephrem wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:I think I understand you. Whether you understand me is an open question.
I will be clear: you in Europe do not occupy a higher moral plane by virtue of some accident of birth. You have contended otherwise.
…i’ve done no such thing. What i said was that we are better equiped at looking beyond our cultural indoctrinations due to past experiences, and recognize how politics can manipulate our thoughprocesses…
Thanks. You have made my point for me: you believe that it is a birthright of Western Europeans to assume that they have a superior moral position.
ANd this is not a form of arrogance, blindness and group-think?
…i don’t think the ability to looking beyond our cultural indoctrinations due to past experiences, and recognizing how politics can manipulate our thoughprocesses is limited to Europe. It also means that our flaws and shortcomings are very visible, and that we’re aware of them. So to answer your question: No, i don’t think that,
[/quote]
Ah! At last, the scales fall from your eyes. Reasonable people make moral judgments as individuals, not as groups. There is no a priori argument that Europeans are somehow better at these judgments than Americans, or that they have as individuals an automatic moral advantage.
You can’t fight an idea?
Naziism was an idea. Fascism was an idea. Stalinism was an idea. Manifest Destiny was an idea. The White Man’s Burden was an idea. Dutch colonialism was idea.
Ideas don’t go away, particularly murderous ones, since fanatics exist in every age. But, on occasion, they can be effectively disarmed. Some of us want AQ effectively disarmed, for the reasons of their obvious murderous hostility. As for their ideas? You decide for yourself.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
You can’t fight an idea?
Naziism was an idea. Fascism was an idea. Stalinism was an idea. Manifest Destiny was an idea. The White Man’s Burden was an idea. Dutch colonialism was idea.
Ideas don’t go away, particularly murderous ones, since fanatics exist in every age. But, on occasion, they can be effectively disarmed. Some of us want AQ effectively disarmed, for the reasons of their obvious murderous hostility. As for their ideas? You decide for yourself.
[/quote]
…i’ve lost interest in this thread Doc, so i thank you for your time and effort. Until next time…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
You can’t fight an idea?
Naziism was an idea. Fascism was an idea. Stalinism was an idea. Manifest Destiny was an idea. The White Man’s Burden was an idea. Dutch colonialism was idea.
Ideas don’t go away, particularly murderous ones, since fanatics exist in every age. But, on occasion, they can be effectively disarmed. Some of us want AQ effectively disarmed, for the reasons of their obvious murderous hostility. As for their ideas? You decide for yourself.
…i’ve lost interest in this thread Doc, so i thank you for your time and effort. Until next time…[/quote]
Ok. I guess other challenges await you.
And thanks for your courtesy.
You can’t fight an idea?
Naziism was an idea. Fascism was an idea. Stalinism was an idea. Manifest Destiny was an idea. The White Man’s Burden was an idea. Dutch colonialism was idea.
Ideas don’t go away, particularly murderous ones, since fanatics exist in every age. But, on occasion, they can be effectively disarmed. Some of us want AQ effectively disarmed, for the reasons of their obvious murderous hostility. As for their ideas? You decide for yourself.
[/quote]
We’re not going to defeat the idea of Islamic fundamentalism by occupying their countries, especially when innocent people are dying.