6'4/185lbs. Am I a Skinny Bastard?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]natural59 wrote:
<<<
Unfortunately, too many people ARE listening to your unqualified advice, and are paying for it over the long haul. If you want to carry around 30+lbs. of worthless adipose, while bulking (so-called), that’s your prerogative, but stop pushing this malformed mindset on unawares…

Undoubtedly, there is a point of diminishing returns, which varies from person to person, but that point is nowhere near where you profess it to be.

I’ve been saying this since I joined T-Nation, and will continue to counter those, like you, who insist on preaching this ill-conceived notion of mass building:

The next time someone tells you that you have to “bulk” to get big, stick your fingers in your ears, say, “la la la la, I can’t hear you,” and run (don’t walk) away…

I’m embarrassed that I feel compelled to quote a reference, but I fear that no one is going to listen to my views on the subject, so I offer the following T-Nation article to those who have enough sense to digest its’ contents, without getting fat between the ears:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1268956&cr=bodybuilding

-james

p.s. The above article had nothing to do with my views on the subject. I, in fact, read this long after (today, actually) I had already discovered the veracity of this viewpoint for myself.

[/quote]

OK Bub, I have been friendly and even complimentary to you since you’ve been here and will continue to do so. You do not dispute anything anything I credit you as having said because I have not represented you.

You however have grievously misrepresented me in this last post on the following points.

1> I have stated virtually nothing in an unqualified manner in my entire history here and am left wondering if you know what that means. I am incessantly qualifying what I say here because absolutes are tough to come by in this game.

2> I have gone so far as to repudiate the very term “bulking” so called, in those words stating that it invokes visions of fatness that I do not intend in what I say. Further I have never EVER attached ANY number as a reference to any statement I have made regarding gaining or any other aspect of training. Indeed anybody who’s been around here at all knows that that isn’t even my style.

3> There indeed IS a point of diminishing returns only as stated above I haven’t professed it to be any particular level of anything except beyond wherever the guy who isn’t gaining currently is.

4> I have stated in the clearest, impossible to misunderstand diction our language has to offer over and over and over and FRICKIN OVER AGAIN, even in the last 12 hours that nobody has to or should gain more fat than is necessary to optimize muscular gains.

My only caveat is that MOST, NATURAL trainees interested in being actually large will not accomplish that in anything that could be construed as an expedited manner while fretting over their abs. I have never specified what that means to any individual.

Hence the aforementioned incessant qualification. This is where we butt heads the hardest. I stand by what I’ve said and will continue to say it.

If forced I can thoroughly document every statement in this post as being what I’ve said for the year I’ve been around here.

In a nutshell, those who refuse to overshoot maintenance by enough to at least soften up will be forever chasing gains that could be theirs if they could only escape from slavish bondage to the one set of muscles that sits on their midsection. You can link me to articles for the rest of your natural life and will not change that simple truth.

[Duke]

SXIO, you training looks rigorous with quite a few movements for each session. At 50 mins per session you must get yourself moving along.

Not that I doubt you at all of course, I’m more envious of your regimen than anything.

I’m 6’2" in the old language and hitting 206lbs through the CW 30 day plan. It’s the first time I’ve been able to exceed 205 with clean eating.

I consider myslef skinny too but putting on the weight while not getting a big belly is always a fine line to walk.

Have you done any of CW’s plans?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Duke wrote:
<<< I consider myslef skinny too but putting on the weight while not getting a big belly is always a fine line to walk. >>>[/quote]

Please God Help me. It’s not a fine line when were talking about getting a big belly. No body has to do that to make excellent gains. It IS a fine line trying to stay very lean while putting on size and a line those interested in ultimate size before they die will cross only by enough make sure they are not under fueling their goals.

I’m not picking on you Duke, but why do people think only in extremes. It’s either cellophane skin or John Goodman. I’m not getting it, it doesn’t have to be like this.

[Sxio]

[quote]Duke wrote:
SXIO, you training looks rigorous with quite a few movements for each session. At 50 mins per session you must get yourself moving along.

Not that I doubt you at all of course, I’m more envious of your regimen than anything.

I’m 6’2" in the old language and hitting 206lbs through the CW 30 day plan. It’s the first time I’ve been able to exceed 205 with clean eating.

I consider myslef skinny too but putting on the weight while not getting a big belly is always a fine line to walk.

Have you done any of CW’s plans?[/quote]

Really? Gee, I always thought I was very much on the ‘low volume side of things’. There’s only 15 sets in each of those sessions. The 50mins thing is solely due to timing myself. 1 minute rests get you cranking through the session.

I don’t worry about clean eating too much. I don’t eat junk because I do get fat, but you’ll never see me tucking into broiled chicken breasts with broccoli. With my build getting abs happening has never been a problem. I want shoulders and arms so I said goodbye to abs a couple of years ago.

I haven’t done any of CWs stuff due to the frequency involved. I just can’t be bothered training that frequently. I like to hit 3-4 sessions a week. I generally take the good ideas I read about and apply them to my own programs. I haven’t done someone’s else’s program since Ian King was writing for this site (his limping series was excellent).

[Sentoguy]

[quote]natural59 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Thoughts? Yeah, don’t be more lax on your diet, just eat more of the clean foods that you have been eating. >>>

Yes, not enough more to get yourself fat, but enough more to maximize your growth potential. Good grief, like Sentoguy was saying, you have room for decades more on that 6’4 frame and unless you plan on telling your grand kids about how big you could’ve been you are going to have to eat. This is a matter of prioritized mindset. When a trainee looks in the mirror the first thing he looks for will dictate all else, make no mistake about it.

If you look in the mirror trying to see how lean you are that will be your focus whether you realize it or not in everything else you do. If you look at yourself and start flexing around to see if you can detect any more size anywhere then that will drive the rest of what you do.

Unless you are actually fat and or a complete noob you CANNOT focus your mortal energies on both at once. That’s just the way it is. The guy looking at how lean he is all time will not be gaining at anything like his maximum potential rate and the guy who is looking for size will not panic if an 8th inch of fat materializes between his abs.

Unfortunately, too many people ARE listening to your unqualified advice, and are paying for it over the long haul. If you want to carry around 30+lbs. of worthless adipose, while bulking (so-called), that’s your prerogative, but stop pushing this malformed mindset on unawares…

Undoubtedly, there is a point of diminishing returns, which varies from person to person, but that point is nowhere near where you profess it to be.

I’ve been saying this since I joined T-Nation, and will continue to counter those, like you, who insist on preaching this ill-conceived notion of mass building:

The next time someone tells you that you have to “bulk” to get big, stick your fingers in your ears, say, “la la la la, I can’t hear you,” and run (don’t walk) away…

I’m embarrassed that I feel compelled to quote a reference, but I fear that no one is going to listen to my views on the subject, so I offer the following T-Nation article to those who have enough sense to digest its’ contents, without getting fat between the ears:

-james

p.s. The above article had nothing to do with my views on the subject. I, in fact, read this long after (today, actually) I had already discovered the veracity of this viewpoint for myself.

[/quote]

Hi Natural,

I was not, nor was Tribulus from my comprehension of his post, suggesting that the op gain 30+ lbs of adipose tissue in his quest for lean mass gain. But, I’m sure we all can agree that one needs to be in a caloric surplus in order to gain lean mass. Right?

And, from what Berardi has said, it is just about impossible to gain only lean mass and have no gain in body fat. So, if one wants to gain muscle, they’re going to have to come to grips with the fact that they’re going to put on at least some fat.

But, my point in telling him to continue to eat clean and avoid the junk/empty calories (and Trib’s point about “not enough more to get yourself fat, but enough more to maximize your growth potential”) was that you can gain the majority of your weight in the form of lean mass if your diet is well planned.

Berardi suggests that it’s possible to gain 90% lean mass and only 10% fat. But, you would most likely gain mass at a slower rate than if you gained say 70% lean mass and 30% fat. But, even if you did the 70/30 thing, you’d still only gain 19.5 lbs of fat (if you went directly from 185 to 250), not 30 lbs. You’d have to be eating a horrible diet or eating way way too many calories to gain 30 lbs of adipose from a 65 lb weight gain.

So, let’s go with CT’s advice and say that the op gains (at least) 1 lb every two weeks, or 2 lbs per month. That means that it will take him about 33 months (or slightly under 3 years) to reach his desired weight. In that time he would have also gained some fat and probably have “softened up” a bit. But, his fat gain (if he stuck to his diet) would only be 6.5 lbs on the low end to 19 lbs on the high end (and honestly a 70/30 muscle to fat gain is fairly high).

And best of all, he would have put on nearly twice as much weight in those 3- years than he has in his previous 3 years of training. And, if he sticks to a good clean (albeit “bulking” diet) he’ll have gained the vast majority of his weight in the form of muscle.

Good training,

Sentoguy

p.s. I realize that Tribulus can speak for himself, I was simply giving my understanding of what he wrote to further illustrate that we are all pretty much in agreement on this subject.

[aussie486]

Message to X, if you are out there, come back, the site needs you.

[Duke]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Please God Help me. It’s not a fine line when were talking about getting a big belly. No body has to do that to make excellent gains. It IS a fine line trying to stay very lean while putting on size and a line those interested in ultimate size before they die will cross only by enough make sure they are not under fueling their goals.

I’m not picking on you Duke, but why do people think only in extremes. It’s either cellophane skin or John Goodman. I’m not getting it, it doesn’t have to be like this.[/quote]

Tiribulus, glad you’re not picking on me mate, but with respect, I really don’t think there was any need to clarify my answer for me, nor any reason to ask for Gods help with your post. There’s no harm in it of course, I just think you could’ve handled it by yourself

And BTW Tirib, isn’t your assumption that I “only think in extremes”, an extreme comment in itself?

Mate, obviously my post upset you for some reason, don’t take it to heart though, it’s only a comment in a forum not an amendment to the constitution. Okay?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
<<< p.s. I realize that Tribulus can speak for himself, I was simply giving my understanding of what he wrote to further illustrate that we are all pretty much in agreement on this subject. :)[/quote]

Not surprisingly Sentoguy, who is a level headed clear thinking chap gets it and of course I have no problem with your answer.

What’s happened to the world of weight training when anytime somebody says [quote]“you need to eat more food if you want to get bigger”[/quote] you’re put in the stocks with a sign that reads [quote]this is what happens to those who try to get everybody fat[/quote]?

I don’t know where the sweet spot is for anybody except myself beyond the fact that if somebody isn’t gaining it’s more. I have no doubt that like everything else some guys can stay leaner than others and make optimal gains.

The problem I’m having with Natural59 is that his answer to EVERY question is an instant and unqualified [quote]GOOD GOD MAN!!! whatever you do don’t allow one ounce of foul sinister fat to accumulate while doing it[/quote] and I like the guy. He’s intelligent and takes a lot of time offering help to people here, but he doesn’t seem capable of entertaining the possibility that some folks may want to get bigger at a faster rate than he wants them to.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Duke wrote:
<<< Tiribulus, glad you’re not picking on me mate, but with respect, I really don’t think there was any need to clarify my answer for me, nor any reason to ask for Gods help with your post. There’s no harm in it of course, I just think you could’ve handled it by yourself

And BTW Tirib, isn’t your assumption that I “only think in extremes”, an extreme comment in itself?

Mate, obviously my post upset you for some reason, don’t take it to heart though, it’s only a comment in a forum not an amendment to the constitution. Okay?[/quote]

No, it was the cumulative effect of a days worth of being misinterpreted and misrepresented. I took it more seriously than I should have. Sorry about that.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]aussie486 wrote:
Message to X, if you are out there, come back, the site needs you.[/quote]

Seconded.

[Inner_Hulk]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Yup, you’re a skinny bastard. But at least you’re tall. You can make very solid gains with acceptable and not excessive increases in fat. What’s your current diet like?[/quote]

I usually never drop below 3,5000 calories. It’s usually around 4,000 or more a day.

My main staples currently have been whole eggs, whole milk, potatoes, oats, pastas, olive oil, peanut butter, oranges. I also take in some chicken, tuna, whole grain bread, green veggies. And a wee bit of dirty shit like pizza, lasagna, margarine. I drink about a gallon of water a day.

[Inner_Hulk]

[quote]aussie486 wrote:
Message to X, if you are out there, come back, the site needs you.[/quote]

Didn’t X usually encourage a lot of dirty binging for skinny bitches like myself? Or what? I’ve never read many of his posts but I’m curious as to what he suggests

[SkyzykS]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What’s happened to the world of weight training when anytime somebody says “you need to eat more food if you want to get bigger” you’re put in the stocks with a sign that reads this is what happens to those who try to get everybody fat?
[/quote]

I dunno man, but it’s getting old.

[Bram_Wiley]

Congrats on gaining weight; besides eating more and lifting harder, consider reducing your non-weight room activities – bike riding to work, sports, running, etc.

The best weight for you will be different than for others, keep trying to add weight/muscle until you feel like you’re at a comfortable level.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
aussie486 wrote:
Message to X, if you are out there, come back, the site needs you.

Didn’t X usually encourage a lot of dirty binging for skinny bitches like myself? Or what? I’ve never read many of his posts but I’m curious as to what he suggests[/quote]

Not necessarily, but he could be decidedly more liberal with his recommendations than even I am on occasion.

In those cases the person was usually complaining about not making gains, eating like a gerbil, and was terrified that if they ate a piece of pizza or an ice cream cone they would spontaneously erupt into an uncontrollably inflating freak like something out of a lost episode of the X-Files.

For some people it can be a psychologically liberating event to grab a Big Mac and some fries though I don’t believe in making that the staple of a mass gaining diet. It is entirely possible to eat unprocessed, unrefined, non fast food and get plenty of fuel, indeed even too much.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
What’s happened to the world of weight training when anytime somebody says “you need to eat more food if you want to get bigger” you’re put in the stocks with a sign that reads this is what happens to those who try to get everybody fat?

I dunno man, but it’s getting old.[/quote]

My wrists and neck are chafing already. On the flipside though I don’t want Natural59 to feel unwelcome or ganged up on. I also don’t want to be perceived as attempting to set myself up as the very last word on anything. Most of what I say is merely foundational and pragmatic.

[Duke]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Duke wrote:
<<< Tiribulus, glad you’re not picking on me mate, but with respect, I really don’t think there was any need to clarify my answer for me, nor any reason to ask for Gods help with your post. There’s no harm in it of course, I just think you could’ve handled it by yourself

And BTW Tirib, isn’t your assumption that I “only think in extremes”, an extreme comment in itself?

Mate, obviously my post upset you for some reason, don’t take it to heart though, it’s only a comment in a forum not an amendment to the constitution. Okay?

No, it was the cumulative effect of a days worth of being misinterpreted and misrepresented. I took it more seriously than I should have. Sorry about that.[/quote]

No worries mate, don’t let things get to you, this is just one of the billions of places on the net that have a variety of opinions. It’ll be tough if you let every wombat out there, like me, get to you.
Have a better day buddy.

[Joebob]

My only recommendation for you is to keep a food log. It is a pain in the ass to keep up with at first, but it will really pay off. I bet the house you are not consuming anywhere near the kcal to gain based on your activity levels.

You might actually be surprised at just how much you are under eating. I know I was. Just use the formula in the Massive Eating article by JB or the Carb cycling Codex by Thibs to figure out your BMR and maintenance calorie levels. Best of luck.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
aussie486 wrote:
Message to X, if you are out there, come back, the site needs you.

Seconded. [/quote]

Thirded and Sasquatch too.

[GetJACKED]

I used to be in the same boat as you. Just keep training hard and eating right and it will come.