[quote]craze9 wrote:
Okay, interesting. That’s obviously very close to a traditional deadlift movement though, vs subbing in barbell rows.
How high a starting position do you use?
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I hate barbell rows, and never use them, so that could be the issue. Oddly enough though, I never knew what a deadlift was until I saw signs in my college weightroom saying they were illegal, and then I looked them up online and gave them a try. From years of doing OTHER exercises like squats, pull ups, dumbbells rows, etc, I was able to hit a 300lb deadlift on my first try. There is some merit to it, and it’s not unheard of.
Starting position depends on the lifter and their goals. For me, I stack 7 rubber patio tiles under the plates at the start of a ROM progression cycle and remove a tile each week until I hit the floor. When I was training a distance runner, we stuck with 7 and 5 mat heights with a trap bar. [/quote]
I actually like barbell rows, I just don’t consider them a very good replacement for deadlifts. And I have no problem with people pulling from a higher starting position. In that regard I wouldn’t necessarily agree with Rippetoe, if he says everyone should always barbell deadlift from the floor, but again that’s a topic I don’t consider myself to have any real expertise and don’t really care.
I’m just saying the movement pattern is a good one whether you do it from blocks w/ trap bar or whatever – and a movement different enough from rows that they shouldn’t be considered interchangeable.
I had almost forgotten those dark days in the past when deadlifting got you thrown out of the gym. If the weights banged on the floor, those little polo shirt dudes would come running to remove you!
Believe me, you need to do deadlifts. Unless you’ve got a very, VERY serious injury if you think you don’t need deadlifts you are sadly mistaken. You thinking you don’t need deadlifts makes me think you really need them a whole bunch. [/quote]
no, no you don’t. Why would he need them?[/quote]
Hey man sorry for such a delayed response I didnt expect any one to respond hahaha. But, Yes it is always how I have trained. Even when I was pulling 315 and 405 heavy deadlifts destroyed me and always made me feel horrible. I gave up for a long time and I swear when I started training with Sam the way we do I went from a 415 pull to 485 pull in about 4 months with out EVER pulling form the floor unless it was a stiff leg deadlift.
Now we pretty much never pull off the floor and if we do it is never over 60% and its always speed or pause pulls to hammer positioning. Basically week A we will squat heavy and then pull from blocks for reps more volume and stuff along those lines. The next week we pull heavy for basically one all out set with a target weight FROM BLOCKS. Repeat.
Last November I pulled 570 in a meet. I didnt pull from the floor again until 3 weeks out from my meet in Mid March where I pulled 640 with straps and just barely missed 625 on the platfrom. So literally pulled from the twice in 16 weeks and that was the result. Also hit a 50lbs Squat PR.
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Thanks mate! That’s completely the opposite to how I train, but deadlifts are really easy for me to recover from even close to my max. Squats are the one that hits me harder. My max DL from last meet was 500 but I got a triple for 462 a couple of weeks ago and had a bunch left in the tank from how I felt so I figure I’ve got maybe a 515 or 525 by now. I should check.
I guess I’m not pulling enough for DL to beat my CNS up that much, but squats do even though my max squat is 462. must be my leverages and weak quads.
I’m looking forward to getting a 600 lb pull. I like squats and bench but nothing gets me going like DLs.
[quote]Reed wrote:
I strongly believe that deadlifting from the floor HEAVY is not needed. Obviously, it has to be addressed in order to teach form but, going much heavier from a 4" block allows you to feel even heavier weights, while maintaining better position, not putting a strain on the CNS as bad, and builds confidence. If you practice tech and lets front squats take care of the off the floor work I promise you your deadlift will not suffer,[/quote]
This echoes my recent experience with Th3Pwnishers ROM progression.
By doing only submaximal work from the floor and heavier work from a more limited ROM, my deadlift has drastically improved. This seems to be something I’m hearing more and more from much stronger lifters than me.
[quote]craze9 wrote:
@ Dagill – I didn’t mean you specifically were saying deadlifts cause more injuries than other lifts, but that did seem to be the general implication of the thread. The OP didn’t want to do them for that reason, and many responses seemed to implicitly confirm that, in recommending barbell rows and other lifts.
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I think the deadlift carries a higher injury risk than a lot of other lifts due to the higher weight used and the mechanics of the lift. I also think it is a lift which carries a considerably higher risk of injury for some than others due to the specific proportions of the individual and the mobility needed. I agree that Mark Rippetoe can probably teach anyone to deadlift safely, however most of us are not lucky enough to be personally coached by the Ripped One, which makes it a pretty moot point.
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Anyway, since this is the BEGINNERS forum, I’m going to reiterate that the deadlift is a pretty great and widely approved-of lift. A lot of people agree on this - not only strength-focused guys like Rippetoe and Dan John.[/quote]
Agreed, however this does not mean that it’s essential for everyone.
I think it would depend on the goal of the trainee, and on whether you feel they will be able to deadlift with decent enough form to make it worth their while. My instinct tells me that a trap bar deadlift is probably enough for a lot of trainees.
[quote]dagill2 wrote:
I think the deadlift carries a higher injury risk than a lot of other lifts due to the higher weight used and the mechanics of the lift. I also think it is a lift which carries a considerably higher risk of injury for some than others due to the specific proportions of the individual and the mobility needed.[/quote]
How is this different than any other lift? I mean that as an actual discussion point.
As of yet, my experience has been that doing anything that is too far from your body’s current capabilities carries injury risk. If you’re capable of some lift, done in a particular manner, at a certain level of fatigue, you have three options. You can work within your current limits. You can push a little beyond those limits, and force the body to adapt. Or you can push much further beyond those limits and fail… either because you fail the lift, or something in your body fails.
Trying to do a supramaximal negative curl single immediately after a triple drop set is going to carry a pretty high injury risk, simply on the basis of pushing the body too far beyond its current capabilities.
Just as a deadlifter can injure themselves trying to control the negative on a 1RM attempt, when all they’ve ever done in the past has dropped the bar at the top. But if touch-n-go sets with controlled negatives have been a part of their training, it’s really no big deal.
I guess I’m just not seeing what’s so special about the deadlift when it comes to injury risk. Nearly every lift is capable of causing significant life-altering injuries if you’re working too far out of your capabilities.