5x5 Question

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I started a 5x5 program recently, and I had a question regarding the validity of 5x5’s and ramping in general. So a typical 5x5 will have you hitting your 5 rep max 3x per week, which is snazzy, but what I don’t understand, is that the other sets you do while ramping are virtually worthless. An example:

Let’s say my max bench press was 250. On a 5x5 I’d do something like this:

Monday: 1305 1605 1855 2205 2505
Wednesday: 1305 1605 1855 1855
Friday: 1305 1605 1855 2205 2553 180*8

or something to that effect; where Monday is a straight 5x5, wednesday is a light day, and friday you try to hit the triple that will become your high set the following monday.

But look at all those other sets you would do…they’re basically glorified warmups. If I can do, say 2505 2405 2305 2255 225*5, wouldn’t I be MUCH better off doing that 3x per week?

2

I believe the idea is not to count the warm up/ramp and count the working sets only. By the time you get to the working sets it should be a weight that you can complete 5 sets of 5 without dropping or raising the weight. The ramp doesn’t need to be 5 reps. I could be more or less as you warm up.

I personally don’t play with exact schemes like this.

3

Is that The Texas Method or Starr 5x5?

I think there is validity in both methods. You will still end up ramping up in weight as part of your warm-up, or at least I would hope so.

IDK, try it your way and see what works. If you crash and burn, then go back and do the planned ramp up. Simple.

4

[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:…, but what I don’t understand, is that the other sets you do while ramping are virtually worthless.
[/quote]

This is where you are wrong.

5

“…the other sets you do while ramping are virtually worthless.”

Actually, they prepare your muscles/ cns/ brain for the hell that is coming on reps 3-5 of the last set.

6

You guys are throwing the word “validy” around with completely incorrect definitions, but thats beside the point.

There are two ways to do 5x5 (or any rep scheme for that matter). Actually three ways.

1)You can do all your warmup sets, and then hit 5x5 with the SAME weight for all sets. When you are able to get 5x5 on all sets you increase the weight and repeat.

2)You can ramp up in weight over the course of 5 sets, hitting a 5RM on the final set

3)You can warm up to a weight close to your 5rm and then increase the weight a small amount each set for 5 sets.

Numbers 1,3 are good for size, conditioning gains, while 2 is better for strength. Im not doing 5x5, but somethign similar and was doing option 2. It was great for getting stronger and hitting PR’s but the volume ith “working weights” wasnt enough so ive switched it up. I now alternate, sometimes ramping to a PR and othertimes trying to get as many sets/reps with a weight close to that PR.

So for example. Say im doing DB bench.

Option 2 would have me do something like this. Warmup a bit, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, 95’s, 100’s. I might get 5 on the last set, or maybe more like 4 or 3. Also, sometimes I dont use the full amount of reps on the sets ramping up to the final set. It might be 70x5, 80x3, 90x1, 95x1, 100x1, then 100x5. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish and how well you can judge your strength. But typically I see now value in doing reps with less than 90% or so of your RM. So if you can do 100’sx5 what good is it to do 80’s x 5.

Then on other days, i’ll warm up, and then do something like this. 90’s x 6, 95’s x 5, 100’s x 5, 100’s x 4, 100’s x 3. These are just hypothetical values, but basically I set a rep range, like 4-6, and if I get 6 I increase the weight, and if not I keep the weight the same.

I think this gives you the best of both worlds, because you can have some days where you focus on hitting a PR for strength, and some days, where you just get your volume in.

7

[quote]dankid wrote:
You guys are throwing the word “validy” around with completely incorrect definitions, but thats beside the point.[/quote]

Dankid, if you are going to call people out for using words out of context, you might want to actually spell the offending word correctly in the first place. It might give some ‘validity’ to the rest of your post.

8

[quote]dankid wrote:

You can do all your warmup sets, and then hit 5x5 with the SAME weight for all sets. When you are able to get 5x5 on all sets you increase the weight and repeat.

That’s 5x5. Anything else is “so and so’s version”.

9

[quote]HK24719 wrote:
AccipiterQ wrote:…, but what I don’t understand, is that the other sets you do while ramping are virtually worthless.

This is where you are wrong.[/quote]

Agreed, if you look at the Starr 5x5 template, there is a factor used in figuring out which work sets go into your tonnage total. Anything above a certain percentage is counted, and you can play around w/ tuning this factor.

I’m not sure how that program was designed, but there looks to be some more complicated stuff going on from looking at some of the other worksheets in the template, like calculating a weekly volume total, then dividing that into workouts. I don’t think it is just x%,x%,x%,x%,x% of 1 rep max, then add x% to all sets for the next week.

10

[quote]theuofh wrote:

Agreed, if you look at the Starr 5x5 template, there is a factor used in figuring out which work sets go into your tonnage total. Anything above a certain percentage is counted, and you can play around w/ tuning this factor.

[/quote]

Do you know what percentage he suggests? I do this sometimes, and use something like everything above 90% of my RM for that range as counting.

11

[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:
I started a 5x5 program recently, and I had a question regarding the validity of 5x5’s and ramping in general. So a typical 5x5 will have you hitting your 5 rep max 3x per week, which is snazzy, but what I don’t understand, is that the other sets you do while ramping are virtually worthless. An example:

Let’s say my max bench press was 250. On a 5x5 I’d do something like this:

Monday: 1305 1605 1855 2205 2505
Wednesday: 1305 1605 1855 1855
Friday: 1305 1605 1855 2205 2553 180*8

or something to that effect; where Monday is a straight 5x5, wednesday is a light day, and friday you try to hit the triple that will become your high set the following monday.

But look at all those other sets you would do…they’re basically glorified warmups. If I can do, say 2505 2405 2305 2255 225*5, wouldn’t I be MUCH better off doing that 3x per week?
[/quote]

I see you are doing Madcow’s intermediate 5x5 version. Solid program IMO.

To answer your questions,

  1. no the ramping/warm-up sets are not worthless. They actually serve several very important functions. They prime the nervous system, they get the muscles gradually used to using heavier and heavier weights, they get blood and nutrients into the desired muscles, and they add to total workout volume.

If you were to try to just walk right into the gym and lift a true 5RM right out of the gate, you’d likely either tare something, or possibly just not be able to lift it. Think of it like turning on your car on a cold winter morning and then immediately trying to push the car to it’s maximal speed. Not a good idea right? Well it’s the same thing with your muscles/nervous system.

  1. if you can consistently progress doing a regular ramp 3x per week, then yes it would be more beneficial. The thing is that most people can’t, or at least most intermediates (who the program is designed for) can’t. By having the “light” day and the periodized model you allow more time for recovery while not completely avoiding the lifts. Hence you get more steady consistent progress and don’t run yourself into the ground.

If you want to try doing a regular ramp 3x per week, then try it. If you find that you keep hitting a brick wall in terms of strength progression (or start experiencing other tell tale signs of overtraining), then your body is telling you that you need to back off. Maybe try going to 2x per week and doing a “light” day to give yourself more time to recover. If that doesn’t work, go back to doing the program as written.

Like I said before, I personally think this is a solid program. But sometimes the only way that someone is going to understand their own body and it’s limitations (and perhaps why certain programs are set up the way that they are) is by actually experimenting and finding out what those limitations actually are.

If you feel like this is the case for you, or you truly wanna see if you can handle more intensity/frequency, then go for it. If not, just stick with the program as is. Just don’t go too crazy switching too many things around or it can be tough to isolate what is/isn’t working for you. In other words, use the basic template and just play with things like frequency, intensity, or even volume.

12

The other vrsion of 5x5 not metioned so far is that prescribed by John Berardi. Basically after warm-up you select a weight that is your 5RM, and certainly no more than your 6RM. You then attempt to grind out as many 5x5 as possible using 2-3min RIs.
Personally I think the ramping method is more effective because you often find yourself getting stronger as the sets progress, whereas the Berardi version wipes you out early on.

13

I’ve done the Bill Starr 5x5 so I can’t say for the madcow. I can tell you that it works, no matter how insignificant you think the ramp is, it works. In Starr’s program though, Friday would have you doing 5 sets of your 5 rep max. Using his template exactly my bench press went from 315 x 5 to 345 x 5 in a matter of six weeks.

My advice is, don’t mess with the big movements, what they have prescribed works. You can add accessory stuff at the end if you like. Be prepared to experience weird pains here and there, lol. I quit doing the 5x5 due to a new found pain in my forearm, that and it doesn’t leave much gas to do the accessory stuff. Great program for strength, not so great for sculpting.

14

Until very recently I felt the same way as the OP. I thought that if I ramped, my warm ups would be too light and have no positive effect.

I was WRONG, and I’m so glad that I am now doing a ramping method. Within one session, I deadlifted 50 lbs more than I’ve ever pulled in my life for 5, which was 50lbs over what i was doing for 5x5. Two months later, it’s 85lbs over. I have similar results with just about all of my major lifts. I never thought I could military press what I’m doing now and this is just two months were talking about.

Aside from the added benefit of finally getting stronger is the recovery. I BUSTED MY ASS doing 5x5…I was one of the few people in the gym huffing and puffing…which is a good thing, but honestly I think I was getting burned out. Granted, I never backed off…but I can recover sooo much better from week to week with the ramping method

I for one am very glad I decided to give ramping a try and I will likely always do it from here on out.

15

[quote]Iron-Hoosier wrote:
I’ve done the Bill Starr 5x5 so I can’t say for the madcow. I can tell you that it works, no matter how insignificant you think the ramp is, it works. In Starr’s program though, Friday would have you doing 5 sets of your 5 rep max. Using his template exactly my bench press went from 315 x 5 to 345 x 5 in a matter of six weeks.

My advice is, don’t mess with the big movements, what they have prescribed works. You can add accessory stuff at the end if you like. Be prepared to experience weird pains here and there, lol. I quit doing the 5x5 due to a new found pain in my forearm, that and it doesn’t leave much gas to do the accessory stuff. Great program for strength, not so great for sculpting. [/quote]

Are you suggesting that you were doing 5x5 WITH your 5rm? or was it more like a 6-7RM? I can understand the latter, but i dont see how you can do 5x5 with your 5RM.

16

[quote]davidtower wrote:
Until very recently I felt the same way as the OP. I thought that if I ramped, my warm ups would be too light and have no positive effect.

I was WRONG, and I’m so glad that I am now doing a ramping method. Within one session, I deadlifted 50 lbs more than I’ve ever pulled in my life for 5, which was 50lbs over what i was doing for 5x5. Two months later, it’s 85lbs over. I have similar results with just about all of my major lifts. I never thought I could military press what I’m doing now and this is just two months were talking about.

Aside from the added benefit of finally getting stronger is the recovery. I BUSTED MY ASS doing 5x5…I was one of the few people in the gym huffing and puffing…which is a good thing, but honestly I think I was getting burned out. Granted, I never backed off…but I can recover sooo much better from week to week with the ramping method

I for one am very glad I decided to give ramping a try and I will likely always do it from here on out.[/quote]

are you saying you are still doing 5x5, but doing ramping instead of straight sets?

17

[quote]trextacy wrote:
davidtower wrote:
Until very recently I felt the same way as the OP. I thought that if I ramped, my warm ups would be too light and have no positive effect.

I was WRONG, and I’m so glad that I am now doing a ramping method. Within one session, I deadlifted 50 lbs more than I’ve ever pulled in my life for 5, which was 50lbs over what i was doing for 5x5. Two months later, it’s 85lbs over. I have similar results with just about all of my major lifts. I never thought I could military press what I’m doing now and this is just two months were talking about.

Aside from the added benefit of finally getting stronger is the recovery. I BUSTED MY ASS doing 5x5…I was one of the few people in the gym huffing and puffing…which is a good thing, but honestly I think I was getting burned out. Granted, I never backed off…but I can recover sooo much better from week to week with the ramping method

I for one am very glad I decided to give ramping a try and I will likely always do it from here on out.

are you saying you are still doing 5x5, but doing ramping instead of straight sets?[/quote]

nope…I was doing 5x5 straight sets with roughly my 7 rep max (longish rest periods) but now rmaping up to one max set. Some movements like the t-bar row I’m also using rest pause because I find that allows me to use better form with maximum weight as I get to my limit.

18

Wondering if anyone knows are these all programs actually made from Bill Starr’s 5x5…or did someone rip the name 5x5 and made some of these?
Some pretty cool set-ups.

19

[quote]Iron-Hoosier wrote:
I’ve done the Bill Starr 5x5 so I can’t say for the madcow. I can tell you that it works, no matter how insignificant you think the ramp is, it works. In Starr’s program though, Friday would have you doing 5 sets of your 5 rep max. Using his template exactly my bench press went from 315 x 5 to 345 x 5 in a matter of six weeks.

My advice is, don’t mess with the big movements, what they have prescribed works. You can add accessory stuff at the end if you like. Be prepared to experience weird pains here and there, lol. I quit doing the 5x5 due to a new found pain in my forearm, that and it doesn’t leave much gas to do the accessory stuff. Great program for strength, not so great for sculpting. [/quote]

What is the original Bill Starr 5x5 template…I’ve never seen it before…I found this site but which one is the original…assuming you used the original.
As for scuplting…or I would say other smaller bodyparts…I looked at most of these programs and to even things out I think a 2-3 sets of 10-15 of small movements like later raises, rear raises wouldnt hurt at all actually and would give that “scuplting”. Can even use rest-pause technique.

What does anyone else think?

20

[quote]rasturai wrote:
Iron-Hoosier wrote:
I’ve done the Bill Starr 5x5 so I can’t say for the madcow. I can tell you that it works, no matter how insignificant you think the ramp is, it works. In Starr’s program though, Friday would have you doing 5 sets of your 5 rep max. Using his template exactly my bench press went from 315 x 5 to 345 x 5 in a matter of six weeks.

My advice is, don’t mess with the big movements, what they have prescribed works. You can add accessory stuff at the end if you like. Be prepared to experience weird pains here and there, lol. I quit doing the 5x5 due to a new found pain in my forearm, that and it doesn’t leave much gas to do the accessory stuff. Great program for strength, not so great for sculpting.

What is the original Bill Starr 5x5 template…I’ve never seen it before…I found this site but which one is the original…assuming you used the original.
As for scuplting…or I would say other smaller bodyparts…I looked at most of these programs and to even things out I think a 2-3 sets of 10-15 of small movements like later raises, rear raises wouldnt hurt at all actually and would give that “scuplting”. Can even use rest-pause technique.

What does anyone else think?[/quote]

I believe he had several templates. IIRC Madcow’s 5x5 claims to be one of those.