[quote]gonepostal wrote:
There is also a ton of research (russian) that predict the limits for these exercises…according to them we haven’t really came close to maxing out human potential. There is also research done concluding that the snatch is unaffected by the use of performance enhancing drugs, due to the fact that it is such a technical lift. I’m in class right now but I’ll try to cite some sources and post some links.
I’m willing to believe on faith alone though, humans are always pushing the limits and seeing how far we can take it.[/quote]
I’d love to see some cited references for that as i’m sure it can’t be right. Yep, the snatch is a technical lift but all other things being equal a stronger lifter will lift more than a weaker therefore muscular strength (when taken in the context of rate force development) must be a factor.
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Sure but he has a point. When you look at Salimi, the guy will have no problem snatch deadlifting his max snatch, or overhead squatting his max snatch. For a guy like him, the strength is not the problem, it’s just the maintenance of the technique.[/quote]
True, but if you have two lifters and both have good technique, the stronger one will be able to snatch more. Personally for me, my snatch is perfectly correlated with my Box Squat. If it goes up my snatch goes up. To snatch 500lbs one may need to possess the strength of a powerlifter in addition to the technique.
Also, training systems may change in the future. Traditional russian and bulgrarian systems may have produced the champions of the past, but the first 500lbs snatcher may be training in ways we can’t even imagine yet.
“to snatch 500 lbs one may need to possess the strength of a powerlifter in addition to the technique” - this implies that powerlifters are stronger than Olympic lifters, which is not true. they express their strength in different ways and as such are strong in different ways, one is not “stronger” than the other. developing tremendous upper body strength, as many powerlifters do, will yield probably no return on your snatch or clean and jerk. developing a massive deadlift or even squat will eventually result in diminishing returns on the classic lifts. a powerlifter who can squat and deadlift 700lbs may not be able to clean even 300lbs. the strength needed to do the lifts is built doing the lifts themselves. neither the elite powerlifter or elite Olympic lifter is stronger than the other, it’s comparing apples and oranges.
[quote]ape288 wrote:
“to snatch 500 lbs one may need to possess the strength of a powerlifter in addition to the technique” - this implies that powerlifters are stronger than Olympic lifters, which is not true. they express their strength in different ways and as such are strong in different ways, one is not “stronger” than the other. developing tremendous upper body strength, as many powerlifters do, will yield probably no return on your snatch or clean and jerk. developing a massive deadlift or even squat will eventually result in diminishing returns on the classic lifts. a powerlifter who can squat and deadlift 700lbs may not be able to clean even 300lbs. the strength needed to do the lifts is built doing the lifts themselves. neither the elite powerlifter or elite Olympic lifter is stronger than the other, it’s comparing apples and oranges.[/quote]
Most SHW squat 800-900lbs olympic style, what if they had to strength to olympic squat 1000lbs? Wouldn’t their lifts go up?
[quote]ape288 wrote:
“to snatch 500 lbs one may need to possess the strength of a powerlifter in addition to the technique” - this implies that powerlifters are stronger than Olympic lifters, which is not true. they express their strength in different ways and as such are strong in different ways, one is not “stronger” than the other. developing tremendous upper body strength, as many powerlifters do, will yield probably no return on your snatch or clean and jerk. developing a massive deadlift or even squat will eventually result in diminishing returns on the classic lifts. a powerlifter who can squat and deadlift 700lbs may not be able to clean even 300lbs. the strength needed to do the lifts is built doing the lifts themselves. neither the elite powerlifter or elite Olympic lifter is stronger than the other, it’s comparing apples and oranges.[/quote]
Most SHW squat 800-900lbs olympic style, what if they had to strength to olympic squat 1000lbs? Wouldn’t their lifts go up?
[quote]ape288 wrote:
“to snatch 500 lbs one may need to possess the strength of a powerlifter in addition to the technique” - this implies that powerlifters are stronger than Olympic lifters, which is not true. they express their strength in different ways and as such are strong in different ways, one is not “stronger” than the other. developing tremendous upper body strength, as many powerlifters do, will yield probably no return on your snatch or clean and jerk. developing a massive deadlift or even squat will eventually result in diminishing returns on the classic lifts. a powerlifter who can squat and deadlift 700lbs may not be able to clean even 300lbs. the strength needed to do the lifts is built doing the lifts themselves. neither the elite powerlifter or elite Olympic lifter is stronger than the other, it’s comparing apples and oranges.[/quote]
Most SHW squat 800-900lbs olympic style, what if they had to strength to olympic squat 1000lbs? Wouldn’t their lifts go up?
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not necessarily[/quote]
Yeah what is it with all this weightlifting/powerlifting math? Everybody feels more comfortable with a nice clean cut conclusion, but that certainly isn’t possible here. To really realy oversimplify the issue, to drive a point home:
YOU GAIN WHAT YOU TRAIN!
If you build the strength to squat 1000 lbs, guess what you’ll be good at: squatting 1000 lbs!!
There are stories of famours lifters who NEVER squatted weights above what they could clean, and they put up huge totals. There is no simple mathematical formula here.
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.
[quote]Summons wrote:
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.[/quote]
What do you suggest he increase so, if not his squat?? Calves?
[quote]Summons wrote:
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.[/quote]
What do you suggest he increase so, if not his squat?? Calves? [/quote]
I’m not interested in discussing the choice of exercises he would use to get stronger. As I said, the debate over whether a bigger squat will lead to a bigger snatch/clean n jerk at the highest level has been done to death with no real conclusion. My point is that if he got stronger in the muscles used in the snatch (by whatever means) and his technique remained the same, he should be able to snatch more.
[quote]Summons wrote:
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.[/quote]
What do you suggest he increase so, if not his squat?? Calves? [/quote]
I’m not interested in discussing the choice of exercises he would use to get stronger. As I said, the debate over whether a bigger squat will lead to a bigger snatch/clean n jerk at the highest level has been done to death with no real conclusion. My point is that if he got stronger in the muscles used in the snatch (by whatever means) and his technique remained the same, he should be able to snatch more.[/quote]
[quote]Summons wrote:
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.[/quote]
lol I wasn’t trying to turn it into another oly vs. powerlifter debate, but that line about an olifter needing the “strength of a powerlifter” bothered me.
You kind of have to sift through this one (or just read the whole thing) as it doesn’t cover the 227kg snatch question directly but it has some interesting stuff in it. It’s just one article with some good information and some good sources. So take it with a grain of salt.
[quote]Summons wrote:
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.[/quote]
What do you suggest he increase so, if not his squat?? Calves? [/quote]
I’m not interested in discussing the choice of exercises he would use to get stronger. As I said, the debate over whether a bigger squat will lead to a bigger snatch/clean n jerk at the highest level has been done to death with no real conclusion. My point is that if he got stronger in the muscles used in the snatch (by whatever means) and his technique remained the same, he should be able to snatch more.[/quote]
“Strength” matters only to a degree. A snatch or clean involves generating power during a limited time frame. You can´t use the extra strength if you have no time to generate it, which will happen at some point as the weights involved increase.
[quote]Summons wrote:
The thing is, what was mentioned further up the page wasn’t whether squat strength would effect the ability to snatch more, but somehow it’s turning into a debate on that + one on oly lifters vs powerlifters (both of which have been done to death anyway). surely though if salimi increased his strength in the muscles used in the snatch (not the squat) and his technique remained the same, he would be able to snatch more? I don’t see how technique can be the only limiting factor at his level.[/quote]
What do you suggest he increase so, if not his squat?? Calves? [/quote]
I’m not interested in discussing the choice of exercises he would use to get stronger. As I said, the debate over whether a bigger squat will lead to a bigger snatch/clean n jerk at the highest level has been done to death with no real conclusion. My point is that if he got stronger in the muscles used in the snatch (by whatever means) and his technique remained the same, he should be able to snatch more.[/quote]
“Strength” matters only to a degree. A snatch or clean involves generating power during a limited time frame. You canÃ?´t use the extra strength if you have no time to generate it, which will happen at some point as the weights involved increase.
[/quote]
What if you could train strength in the same time frame as a snatch?
If a lifter can squat 700lbs in .5 seconds today and in 5 years can squat 900lbs in .5 seconds, he should be stronger as long as he maintains/improves his technique. For me Box squats allow me to train strength with a limited time to generate power because i must come from a complete stop and must explode in about to same time it takes me to explode in a snatch. (as long as i keep the weight light enough to not grind).
[quote]deadliftgoal500 wrote:
What if you could train strength in the same time frame as a snatch?
If a lifter can squat 700lbs in .5 seconds today and in 5 years can squat 900lbs in .5 seconds, he should be stronger as long as he maintains/improves his technique. For me Box squats allow me to train strength with a limited time to generate power because i must come from a complete stop and must explode in about to same time it takes me to explode in a snatch. (as long as i keep the weight light enough to not grind).
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I don’t think the important thing here is the amount of time, and applying that amount of time to other movements: what’s important is what happens in the frame of time.
Look at the lighter Chinese lifters. They put up huge numbers (x2 B/W snatches) because they are experts in the movement.
And I really don’t see why you think box squats are in ANY WAY applicable to the olympic lifts. In the olympic lifts you are training the stretch reflex, which is why lifters try to bounce out of the bottom of a squat. This is a specific thing which can only be safely learnt from repeating the movement time and time and time again. The box squat offers almost no preparation for this, hence NO reputable olympic lifting coaches would use them. If anything, the box squat would teach you how to grind out from an attempt where you weren’t able to utilize the bounce (even if you’re exploding in the box squat, you’re still doing it from a dead start athe the bottom, a phase which shouldn’t be in the celan or snatch): so why train to perfect bad technique?
[quote]deadliftgoal500 wrote:
What if you could train strength in the same time frame as a snatch?
If a lifter can squat 700lbs in .5 seconds today and in 5 years can squat 900lbs in .5 seconds, he should be stronger as long as he maintains/improves his technique. For me Box squats allow me to train strength with a limited time to generate power because i must come from a complete stop and must explode in about to same time it takes me to explode in a snatch. (as long as i keep the weight light enough to not grind).
[/quote]
I don’t think the important thing here is the amount of time, and applying that amount of time to other movements: what’s important is what happens in the frame of time.
Look at the lighter Chinese lifters. They put up huge numbers (x2 B/W snatches) because they are experts in the movement.
And I really don’t see why you think box squats are in ANY WAY applicable to the olympic lifts. In the olympic lifts you are training the stretch reflex, which is why lifters try to bounce out of the bottom of a squat. This is a specific thing which can only be safely learnt from repeating the movement time and time and time again. The box squat offers almost no preparation for this, hence NO reputable olympic lifting coaches would use them. If anything, the box squat would teach you how to grind out from an attempt where you weren’t able to utilize the bounce (even if you’re exploding in the box squat, you’re still doing it from a dead start athe the bottom, a phase which shouldn’t be in the celan or snatch): so why train to perfect bad technique?
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well if it works for him, what difference does it make if you agree with it or not??
[quote]Swolegasm wrote:
well if it works for him, what difference does it make if you agree with it or not??[/quote]
This is a general discussion about whether box-squats could give an oly-lifter the extra strength to snatch record weights. The poster in question isn’t suggesting he thinks he can do this. He has a hunch that box-squatting somehow transfers to the snatch. I think I explained pretty clearly why it probably doesn’t in my last post. If you disagree, explain why and maybe ask me a real question.
[quote]yarni wrote:
so why train to perfect bad technique?
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Because Louie Simmons says so.[/quote]
Ha ha, touche
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Well the box squat works for ME as it’s the exercise most correlated to my snatch. I wasn’t saying anyone else should be using it, but for me it works wonders.
and as to how it helps me with the oly lifts: i use a light enough weight that i know i will not grind. i go down to the box and pause for 3 seconds and explode back up. If you know how to properly apply power, you should be able top explode up just from that initial burst with heavier weights than the back squat. I still do Front squats utilizing the stretch reflex, but i found the box squat better than the back squat for me.