[quote]scottgomez wrote:
[quote]damutt wrote:
I saw that and will probably spend the money to get the book just to see if there is anything else to it. I really dont have any use for the steriod part of the book but information is information.[/quote]
This ^^^^.[/quote]
Yeah, not real thrilled about that section of the book either. But the reality of it people are going to use regardless. Like stated informetion is information. what one does with it is up to them.
[quote]scottgomez wrote:
I’m sorry but I somewhat disagree with the studies that show the avg reps at so&so. I think it all depends on the individual and the lift that one is doing. I work in a 80% range for most of my workouts @ 3reps, and my strength has increased greatly the past few years.
The problem I have with alot of the studies, is they do not use pure strength athletes – not at the caliber of some of the world’s best powerlifter/strongman. These university studies, aswell, are always changing.
However, again, I think in the end it all depends on the individual.[/quote]
Scott, those figures aren’t from one study using novices, they are based on charts in physiology text books (based on data from countless studies)and hold true for the majority of people. It is widely accepted that the best % of repetition maximum for strength gain is 85% - 105%. Not to say that it’s impossible to gain any strength at lower percentages but it makes sense to have the majority of your sets at 85% or above for training efficiency.
[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
Seeing as there is a bit of a debate going I,ll tell you what I think of 5/3/1/ looking at it with my little bit of sports science knowledge. There is nothing earth shattering about 5/3/1 I think the real reason this programme works for the majority of older lifters especially those with work and family commitments is simply because of the inclusion of de-load weeks! Be honest before following 5/3/1 how many of us took a week off every 4 weeks? I,ll argue you were all like me and would hammer at it week in week out until we went on holiday or got injured. And that is why we didn,t make gains each week on other routines.
I will also say that what I think makes you stronger on 5/3/1 is the volume of the assistance work not the lower rep work on the main lifts. Consider squat day, you do
1st set of 5 at 75% (studies show average reps at 75% is 10-12) you do 5
2nd set of 5 at 80% (studies show average reps at 80% is 8-10) you do 5
3rd set of 5 at 85% (studies show average reps at 85% is 6)
As far as I,m concerned that is only one work set for squats . Nowhere near enough volume to increase strength much. However, include the 50+ reps of assistance work that Wendler advises and suddenly the programme starts to work. But only because all the assistance work hypertrophies your prime movers. So it might work for many but is hardly the amazing routine it is cracked up to be.
That,s just my 2 cents worth. My life insurance and will is all in order, I shall await my death threats.
[/quote]
I agree. of course my point was leaning towards most of the time your not training in that intensity range a majority of the time. Its become standered practice when you start using the program to base your training max at 90 % or in some cases less. Now I understand the reason for it. The idea beind to drawling out things slowly increasing strength and extending the length of time before one plateau .Just for the record 5/3/1 isnt ground breaking I agree. I was drawn to this program due to the similaraity it shares with the first strength program I ever used in high school for Football back in the 80’s. By chance is anyone ever herd of “BFS”.
But ill end up picking up the book. lets just say im very interested in how singels are implemented into the program. Namely how manny and at what % . I know that Raw lifter Scott Yard from Elitefts has been using his own take of 5/3/1 for awhile. Along with a few others.
In all do respect. I will say I 5/3/1 as a great program for most people invulved in weight training. Its a great for anyone wanting to develope a solid foundation and something that can be used for the long haul. But I will still stand by what I said before in regards to powerlifting. [/quote]
I agree with you too Bulldog.
I’m not “dissing” the workout at all, I think it,s basically o.k, has a good balance of work to rest and has an easy to follow progression. It’s just not the “holy grail”. If you look at the accepted scientific research into how to gain strength this routine does not fulfill much of the criteria in terms of volume, frequency, intensity etc. I think some people on here are so “brainwashed” now they wouldn’t try anything else and won’t hear a word against it. I think as far as strength training is concerned it’s best to be open minded.
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
Seeing as there is a bit of a debate going I,ll tell you what I think of 5/3/1/ looking at it with my little bit of sports science knowledge. There is nothing earth shattering about 5/3/1 I think the real reason this programme works for the majority of older lifters especially those with work and family commitments is simply because of the inclusion of de-load weeks! Be honest before following 5/3/1 how many of us took a week off every 4 weeks? I,ll argue you were all like me and would hammer at it week in week out until we went on holiday or got injured. And that is why we didn,t make gains each week on other routines.
I will also say that what I think makes you stronger on 5/3/1 is the volume of the assistance work not the lower rep work on the main lifts. Consider squat day, you do
1st set of 5 at 75% (studies show average reps at 75% is 10-12) you do 5
2nd set of 5 at 80% (studies show average reps at 80% is 8-10) you do 5
3rd set of 5 at 85% (studies show average reps at 85% is 6)
As far as I,m concerned that is only one work set for squats . Nowhere near enough volume to increase strength much. However, include the 50+ reps of assistance work that Wendler advises and suddenly the programme starts to work. But only because all the assistance work hypertrophies your prime movers. So it might work for many but is hardly the amazing routine it is cracked up to be.
That,s just my 2 cents worth. My life insurance and will is all in order, I shall await my death threats.
[/quote]
I agree. of course my point was leaning towards most of the time your not training in that intensity range a majority of the time. Its become standered practice when you start using the program to base your training max at 90 % or in some cases less. Now I understand the reason for it. The idea beind to drawling out things slowly increasing strength and extending the length of time before one plateau .Just for the record 5/3/1 isnt ground breaking I agree. I was drawn to this program due to the similaraity it shares with the first strength program I ever used in high school for Football back in the 80’s. By chance is anyone ever herd of “BFS”.
But ill end up picking up the book. lets just say im very interested in how singels are implemented into the program. Namely how manny and at what % . I know that Raw lifter Scott Yard from Elitefts has been using his own take of 5/3/1 for awhile. Along with a few others.
In all do respect. I will say I 5/3/1 as a great program for most people invulved in weight training. Its a great for anyone wanting to develope a solid foundation and something that can be used for the long haul. But I will still stand by what I said before in regards to powerlifting. [/quote]
I agree with you too Bulldog.
I’m not “dissing” the workout at all, I think it,s basically o.k, has a good balance of work to rest and has an easy to follow progression. It’s just not the “holy grail”. If you look at the accepted scientific research into how to gain strength this routine does not fulfill much of the criteria in terms of volume, frequency, intensity etc. I think some people on here are so “brainwashed” now they wouldn’t try anything else and won’t hear a word against it. I think as far as strength training is concerned it’s best to be open minded.[/quote]
You tend to find the whole “Holy grail” mind set in alot of people. More so in newer lifters less so in the more seasond ones. Ive stated in some early post of my own how certain people want to over complicate things. I think as adults we can agree that there is “NO” perfect program. The way I look at it as long as a program follow the very basic principles of training its a good program. As long as a program allows a person to imposse a stress on ones body and forces it to adapt a person good to go. people for get that strength training isnt rocket science. The tend to forget how important effert and being consistant is. dont get me wromg ill defend the merit of program if I agree with the basic priciples of the system. What happens a lot is people will latch on a system less so for the merits of it but for the person proposing that system. Which leads to the whole mind set the guy with the biggest guns have the most knowledge.(but that a whole different topic)
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
Scott, those figures aren’t from one study using novices, they are based on charts in physiology text books (based on data from countless studies)and hold true for the majority of people. It is widely accepted that the best % of repetition maximum for strength gain is 85% - 105%. Not to say that it’s impossible to gain any strength at lower percentages but it makes sense to have the majority of your sets at 85% or above for training efficiency.[/quote]
Good discussion.
This is exactly how I train. For upper body stuff, which is more for show, I’ll do sets of 3, sometimes 5. For squats and deadlifts, I go with singles, doubles, sometimes triples. It’s hard for me to get off my ass to train, so when I do so, I want to train with maximum “efficiency”. I use “Waterbury rep ranges”: 10 or so (total) for max strength, 20-25 for strength/hypertrophy combo, up to 30 if more focused on pump; all reps done at 85% - 100%effort.
No BBB for me, waaayy too much volume for this old bag of bones.
I do have the 5/3/1 book, I learned a lot from it, and I will be buying the new one when it comes out.
Here is the table of contents for the 5/3/1 for Powerlifting book…
“Old Man Winter: Training for Mr. Gray Pubes” is now officially the second best chapter title, after the infamous “Moving North of Vag”
I also find this to be an interesting discussion. One of the things I like about this routine is that it’s dead simple and incorporates a range of techniques that I realized I wasn’t doing with my previous efforts. In particular, the notion of a scheduled de-load week is something I’d read about before but wasn’t doing, but now I find that I’ve gone a much longer time without injuring myself and I’m not walking around in pain all the time from sore muscles.
I also think that, at least for me, there is a benefit to having a simple program that I can stick with for a year or more and still be making progress. I am afraid that I was one of those “program of the month” twits when I started lifting, figuring that I just had to find the perfect set of exercises and I’d be HYOOGE in no time. I now realize that the trick is to just go lift on a regular basis with heavier weights and the rest will take care of itself over time.
One of the things I find obnoxious about much of the rest of this site is the “well, you can’t post anything here because you don’t have pictures of yourself with 22” arms. GTFO!!!" (The Professor X character comes immediately to mind.) I’ve come to the conclusion that 1) you can be a good trainer without having a huge physique and 2) just because you ARE huge doesn’t mean you know diddly-squat about how others should train.
Consequently, the fact that Wendler is a huge guy with lifts that I could only attempt with a forklift doesn’t actually serve to recommend the program to me all that much. I assume that he was on steroids during his competitive career, using equipment, and willing to weigh as much as necessary, none of which applies to me. However, the program seems to resonate with my needs, so if anything I’ve adopted it despite the author rather than because of it.
None of which is to say he’s not an inspiring guy, but it’s mostly his attitude that I like rather than his particular body type.
[quote]ag918w35 wrote:
One of the things I find obnoxious about much of the rest of this site is the “well, you can’t post anything here because you don’t have pictures of yourself with 22” arms. GTFO!!!" (The Professor X character comes immediately to mind.) I’ve come to the conclusion that 1) you can be a good trainer without having a huge physique and 2) just because you ARE huge doesn’t mean you know diddly-squat about how others should train.
.[/quote]
First off very good post.I agree with 99% of it.
I know i am going off topic and doing a slight hyjack. Yep there are alot of obnoxious pricks skattered around.( hope im not one of them). That the problem people assume just because Mr_____ arms are this big or they can lift X amount that there some expert in regards to training. Ive found that 90% of them dont know there head from there ass. While guys who knows there shit are ignored because they dont stack up to the above mention types.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ But he said I was his #1 nutswinger, I feel so used. Hey man why you dieting? What are you doing?[/quote]
trying not to be such a fatass anymore
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
I’m not “dissing” the workout at all, It’s just not the “holy grail”. I think some people on here are so “brainwashed” now they wouldn’t try anything else and won’t hear a word against it. [/quote]
I can’t believe you just called me brainwashed.
can i bum a quarter for the dryer?
[quote]mjnewland wrote:
[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ But he said I was his #1 nutswinger, I feel so used. Hey man why you dieting? What are you doing?[/quote]
trying not to be such a fatass anymore[/quote]
Hahahaha, same as me. I am not getting any younger and I am trying to think long term, being as strong as possible and be able to see my dick.
Back on topic I really think you can take any program that has a good foundation and build with it. What you are building is personalized, like what has been said before here there is no Holy Grail, there is just the search for it.
I really think the 5/3/1 program has spoke to a lot of the over 35 crowd is because its simple and allows for a slow growth with built in breaks. 90% of us are not competing and our goal is to live longer, stronger and feel like real men. Just could be me but that is why I enjoy the program. Also like I said cant wait for this to come out because Wendler can adjust this program cause he wrote it. I have adjusted it to some degree, and actually from what I have read some of his adjustments is what I had proposed in my own log.
speaking from my own personal experience, I switched from Dave Tate’s old “9 week beginner program” westside-ish thing, to 5/3/1 about 18 months ago. I went through 2 cycles of the 9-week thing, and kept hurting myself - this kept me out of the gym and kept me from getting any stronger. the problems were a) the training sessions were way too long to do on a lunch break, and b) i kept hurting myself.
I read 5/3/1 and tried it, and it worked well for me. I have been on it for about 18 months, I got stuck on cycle 11 for about 4 months because I pretty much stopped lifting when I was doing highland games this summer.
For me, 47 yrs old, not terribly strong, at least 50lbs overfat, it worked well for me. I do the BBB variation, and I can complete the session during my lunch break.
I have found that I make the best progress when ‘money set’ reps are above 10 for the 5-days, and above 5 for the 1-days. Thats just me. The concept of getting stuck, dropping weight and going for reps has moved me past many plateaus. whenever the reps are below 5, for me, its too heavy. this is in response to the “low rep” discussion on the first page. for me its a high rep program.
Like almost everyone else that has used 5/3/1, I have found the biggest drawback was forgetting how it felt to grind out a really heavy lift. last spring, I started to take a heavy single in the deadlift only, so each deadlift session, I raised the weight by 10 lbs. This resulted in a lifetime PR of 15 lbs when I deadlifted 460 this summer. But I started at 390, and my highest training weight was under 360. Seriously, I had forgotten how to keep pushing against the immovable object.
If you take a look over at the 5/3/1 thread, you will see that many of the guys over there have been doing 5/3/1 plus heavy singles for over a year. skill and practice at the grind are essential if the goal is to move really heavy stuff. I think anyway.
As much fun as I have talking about killing and eating people who don’t do 5/3/1, its fun, and I am almost 75% sure that I will probably never kill and eat anyone. I don’t think any one program is “the shit” for every person. I know that based on my needs for time-in-the-gym and my level of progression, its working for me better than anything else did.
Still, if I ever get to a place where I’m competitive, and I have more time to spend in the gym, I’d love to give block periodization a try.
In the meantime, I’ll keep doing 5/3/1 so I don’t have to kill and eat myself.
[quote]mjnewland wrote:
I know that based on my needs for time-in-the-gym and my level of progression, its working for me better than anything else did.
[/quote]
Excellent post MJ.
Firstly let me say that any programme that keeps people working out and progressing and injury free has got to be a good thing and anyone over 40 who is still pushing hard has my utmost respect regardless.
Maybe brainwashed was a little strong, but I do worry when people develop unwavering loyalty to a single programme. A programme is just a tool to be used and discarded.
I think you hit the nail on the head above when you said 5/3/1 works for you based on your current level and situation. But as far as being great for everyone I’m not so sure.
I’m going to second what mj said. 5/3/1 works for me for a lot of reasons including the conditioning. Its important to me to be able to get stronger and play sports and thats not easy at 43. 5/3/1 doesn’t beat me up so much that I can’t play flag football for 2-3 hours on the weekends.
Its not for everybody, but its for me. Right now.
for me I think that 5/3/1 is truely a long term program that will work for the non competitive powerlifter. The hardest part of the program is remebering it is a long term training program that will make you strong in 3 to 5 years not 3 to 5 months.
Anyone by chance know of a possible release date?
[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Anyone by chance know of a possible release date?[/quote]
I keep asking and get now answer. The last article on here by Jim I asked him in the discussion afterwards and got no answer.
Somethings up .Ive been over at Elitefts and it hasnt been showing anything for 5/3/1 in the E- book section. Its showing a blank page . Possible sign ?
Somethings up .Ive been over at Elitefts and it hasnt been showing anything for 5/3/1 in the E book section. Its showing a blank page . Possible sign ?
Lets Pray