[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
If a rock develops a consciousness you have no right to shatter it.[/quote]
Okay, what is ‘consciousness’? [/quote]
Cows have a consciousness.
A mother killing her own child is probably one of the absolute worst abominations ever seen in nature. That?s all I can think to say.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
If a rock develops a consciousness you have no right to shatter it.[/quote]
Okay, what is ‘consciousness’? [/quote]
In a completely materialistic philosophy? Well, it’s an emergent property/trait of an organic hierarchy. There’s lots and lots of those, though. Respiration, excretion, reproduction, and so on.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
No.
First, if this were true we would see it happening already, as there is already precedent for applying murder and manslaughter charges to unborn children.
Second, setting aside for the moment your false dichotomy,there are far too many confounding factors and possibilities for anyone to ever dream of prosecuting more than a tiny fraction of the actual miscarriages that occur. This is further compounded by the fact that a large percent of miscarriages occur whether or not the woman has herself on a 100% organic diet and lives in a bubble boy suit for the duration of her pregnancy.
Whereas with abortion, the cause of death in every case is indisputably clear. Your comparison is juvenile, which is why we don’t ever see anyone trying to use it in support of abortion.
And you did it again with your weird obsession with bringing religion into an argument that NO ONE has introduced religion into. Are you insecure about something?
[/quote]
No, those murder and manslaughter charges applied to fetuses all have one thing in common: the mother wanted to carry the pregnancy to term. All of you keep leaving out of your arguments: intent of the woman to carry to term. A fetus is a symbiotic organism that grows from and is essentially a part of the mother’s body. What it may or may not become later is irrelevant to what it is at that time and how it should be viewed legally at that time. If you’re going to assert that, because it may become a sentient human being at some point in the future it is protected now as a fetus under the same statutes that protect currently sentient human beings, then you must, under “maxims applied absolutely without exception”, extend that to it’s logical conclusion and recognize semen and eggs as protected under those same statues or you’re arbitrarily drawing lines in the sand in defining what constitutes a human being.
Did you know that consumption of 200mg of caffeine can induce miscarriage? Certainly a great percentage of miscarriages occur in women who have consumed 2-3 cups of coffee at some point. Even in miscarriages that occur when the woman doesn’t know she is pregnant, criminally negligent manslaughter can be applied via willful blindness IF the woman’s period is more than week late, she hasn’t taken a pregnancy test, and has engaged in known risk factors such as low levels of caffeine consumption or moderate exercise.
Do all the mental gymnastics you want, but under “maxims applied universally without exception”, this is the logical conclusion of your argument.
[quote]pat wrote:
No a miscarriage is in the category of natural death, like a heart attack. Or being killed by something natural as a tornado. [/quote]
Abortion is induced miscarriage. Miscarriage in the case where the woman has engaged in one of the contraindicated activities is most certainly unintentional or negligent abortion. If a woman is taking mifeprestone and miscarries, you call it an abortion and murder. If a woman is taking caffeine and miscarries, you call it natural death?
[quote]pat wrote:
Slavery was around for thousands of years too, are you saying that’s right too? I mean because it was around for so long?
Principles, by definition, have to meet a certain criteria for them to apply.
I gather by what you are saying, that it’s ok to take human life when that life is not convenient to your existence. Correct? As long as you admit it’s killing, I don’t have a beef with you so long as you admit the truth.
[/quote]
I was simply pointing out the absolute absurdity in Chris’ statement that legalized abortion would lead to the end of human society within a generation. The post you are quoting says nothing on my views regarding the killing of sentient humans or saying that anything is ok now because it has been ok in the past. I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life until later in the pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy in the first trimester is as much killing to me as having a hysterectomy or appendectomy is killing.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life
[/quote]
Well, I guess we can’t force you to think of it a fetus as life. However, scientifically, it’s an individual organism. Organism=life. Biology 101. Now, is it a dog, for example? We know it’s human. But, do a DNA test if you REALLY have to. Human life. Therefore, abortion MUST take a human life.
And no, gametes (sperm and egg) are haploid. We are diploid organisms (except for the gametes we produce).
That 41% statistic is misleading. It refers specifically to either NYC or the state, which has a higher than average rate. I found that stat, but now I don’t remember where, so I can’t comment on the source.
The CDC reports that in 2000 there were 246 abortions per 1000 live births in the US (minus a few states that did not report data for the year). That puts us at a rate much lower than the 41% that keeps getting mentioned. The CDC also reports that for every 1000 women of child bearing age (15-44,), 16 of them had an abortion. Remember, the second stat includes all women, not just the ones that were pregnant that year, but it does give us a better picture of just how many women in the population are having abortions.
Aside from the statistics that may or may not be correct, I take issue with one thing in here. And it’s this: whether or not some woman somewhere chooses to have an abortion is none of your damn business. I’m not saying that what they are doing is right or wrong, just that what they are doing is legal and a personal decision that they will have to live with, not you. If your religion/morals/philosophy dictate that it is wrong, that’s fine. Don’t have one yourself and find a partner who shares your views. Not everyone shares those views.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
That 41% statistic is misleading. It refers specifically to either NYC or the state, which has a higher than average rate. I found that stat, but now I don’t remember where, so I can’t comment on the source.
The CDC reports that in 2000 there were 246 abortions per 1000 live births in the US (minus a few states that did not report data for the year). That puts us at a rate much lower than the 41% that keeps getting mentioned. The CDC also reports that for every 1000 women of child bearing age (15-44,), 16 of them had an abortion. Remember, the second stat includes all women, not just the ones that were pregnant that year, but it does give us a better picture of just how many women in the population are having abortions.
Aside from the statistics that may or may not be correct, I take issue with one thing in here. And it’s this: whether or not some woman somewhere chooses to have an abortion is none of your damn business. I’m not saying that what they are doing is right or wrong, just that what they are doing is legal and a personal decision that they will have to live with, not you. If your religion/morals/philosophy dictate that it is wrong, that’s fine. Don’t have one yourself and find a partner who shares your views. Not everyone shares those views. [/quote]
I agree with most of what you said except for the last part. Most everything has been legal at some point. If a person honestly believes an unborn child is a human being, they have a duty to try to protect them, the same way they should after birth.
All law is written and changes based on people’s morals.
If I knew my neighbor planned to kill their 3 year old, you bet I’d try to interfere. If I think an unborn is just as human as a 3 year old, should I do the same?
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
That 41% statistic is misleading. It refers specifically to either NYC or the state, which has a higher than average rate. I found that stat, but now I don’t remember where, so I can’t comment on the source.
The CDC reports that in 2000 there were 246 abortions per 1000 live births in the US (minus a few states that did not report data for the year). That puts us at a rate much lower than the 41% that keeps getting mentioned. The CDC also reports that for every 1000 women of child bearing age (15-44,), 16 of them had an abortion. Remember, the second stat includes all women, not just the ones that were pregnant that year, but it does give us a better picture of just how many women in the population are having abortions.
Aside from the statistics that may or may not be correct, I take issue with one thing in here. And it’s this: whether or not some woman somewhere chooses to have an abortion is none of your damn business. I’m not saying that what they are doing is right or wrong, just that what they are doing is legal and a personal decision that they will have to live with, not you. If your religion/morals/philosophy dictate that it is wrong, that’s fine. Don’t have one yourself and find a partner who shares your views. Not everyone shares those views. [/quote]
How about if the mother doesn’t want the child anymore after it’s born. Say, 2 months old. Too much trouble. Does nothing but shit and cry. I’d rather be surfing. You know.
Is it okay for her to kill it?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life until later in the pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy in the first trimester is as much killing to me as having a hysterectomy or appendectomy is killing.
[/quote]
Okay. Let’s dig in here, then.
You mind explaining what you think the difference is between the first trimester and the second?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life until later in the pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy in the first trimester is as much killing to me as having a hysterectomy or appendectomy is killing.
[/quote]
Okay. Let’s dig in here, then.
You mind explaining what you think the difference is between the first trimester and the second? [/quote]
You didn’t ask me but here it comes, brain function that is capable at least theoretically to keep the baby alive in ideal conditions. Which also makes Orions point about braindead people kind of valid.
DD and Cortes: Like stronghold, my definition of “life” is different from others posting on here. A person, whether they’re 2 months old, 2 years old or 72 years old, is not the same as a partially developed fetus in the womb.
I have no interest in discussing the infinite numbers of hypothetical situations and “what ifs” that we can certainly come up with. With varying beliefs and definitions, abortion is a complicated topic. And I know the climate of this board.
My point was simply that with our current laws, abortion is not a crime and individuals have a choice. Not everyone thinks abortion is wrong. Some women have them. It’s their decision, their body, and their clump of cells. End of story.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
No a miscarriage is in the category of natural death, like a heart attack. Or being killed by something natural as a tornado. [/quote]
Abortion is induced miscarriage. Miscarriage in the case where the woman has engaged in one of the contraindicated activities is most certainly unintentional or negligent abortion. If a woman is taking mifeprestone and miscarries, you call it an abortion and murder. If a woman is taking caffeine and miscarries, you call it natural death?
[/quote]
I have never heard of a miscarriage where the fetus gets spontaneously chopped up and sucked out naturally.
If a woman has engaged in a contraindicated activity, that’s one type of case of miscarriage. There are plenty of miscarriages where the child just dies for various reasons.
Intent is the big thing here, was caffeine consumed for to cause the deliberate death of child or was is simply a factor where the mother did not know? Caffeine increases the risk, but is not in itself an abortificant like Pennyroyal tea. In the old days mother’s drank, smoked and drank coffee and most babies turned out fine.
Equating miscarriages to abortions is a non-sequitur, it’s like ruling a death a suicide because somebody who died in an earthquake should have known the risks of living in an earth quake zone. It may make you feel better to think of it this way, but it’s simply not true.
I was simply pointing out the absolute absurdity in Chris’ statement that legalized abortion would lead to the end of human society within a generation. The post you are quoting says nothing on my views regarding the killing of sentient humans or saying that anything is ok now because it has been ok in the past. I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life until later in the pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy in the first trimester is as much killing to me as having a hysterectomy or appendectomy is killing.
[/quote]
Ok, so I’ll ask you, when does human life begin? What makes a human being a human being? Should you not know the answers to these questions before you kill something off? What if you did it and then found out your wrong?
I don’t see much difference between a 90 day fetus and an 89 day fetus, what makes it more human on day 90?
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
That 41% statistic is misleading. It refers specifically to either NYC or the state, which has a higher than average rate. I found that stat, but now I don’t remember where, so I can’t comment on the source.
The CDC reports that in 2000 there were 246 abortions per 1000 live births in the US (minus a few states that did not report data for the year). That puts us at a rate much lower than the 41% that keeps getting mentioned. The CDC also reports that for every 1000 women of child bearing age (15-44,), 16 of them had an abortion. Remember, the second stat includes all women, not just the ones that were pregnant that year, but it does give us a better picture of just how many women in the population are having abortions.
Aside from the statistics that may or may not be correct, I take issue with one thing in here. And it’s this: whether or not some woman somewhere chooses to have an abortion is none of your damn business. I’m not saying that what they are doing is right or wrong, just that what they are doing is legal and a personal decision that they will have to live with, not you. If your religion/morals/philosophy dictate that it is wrong, that’s fine. Don’t have one yourself and find a partner who shares your views. Not everyone shares those views. [/quote]
By that logic, the Casey Anthony case is none of our damn business, but there is a whole lot of folks ready to string her from a tree (including myself). So is a mother, who kills her own daughter none of our damn business?
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life until later in the pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy in the first trimester is as much killing to me as having a hysterectomy or appendectomy is killing.
[/quote]
Okay. Let’s dig in here, then.
You mind explaining what you think the difference is between the first trimester and the second? [/quote]
You didn’t ask me but here it comes, brain function that is capable at least theoretically to keep the baby alive in ideal conditions. Which also makes Orions point about braindead people kind of valid. [/quote]
If you lose the function of any vital organ, your a goner with out machines to artificially prop up your carcass.
A born baby cannot survive on it’s own either…Go ahead leave one alone on the carpet for 12 hours. You’ll come back to a dead body.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
DD and Cortes: Like stronghold, my definition of “life” is different from others posting on here. A person, whether they’re 2 months old, 2 years old or 72 years old, is not the same as a partially developed fetus in the womb.
I have no interest in discussing the infinite numbers of hypothetical situations and “what ifs” that we can certainly come up with. With varying beliefs and definitions, abortion is a complicated topic. And I know the climate of this board.
My point was simply that with our current laws, abortion is not a crime and individuals have a choice. Not everyone thinks abortion is wrong. Some women have them. It’s their decision, their body, and their clump of cells. End of story.[/quote]
Ok, so when does human life begin and what reference do you have to back it up?
This isn’t about what you feel is the case, but what actually is the case. If you kill something to later find out that you unequivocally killed a person, are you going to be ok with that?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I believe that human life is precious and worth defending, but I have a different view on what constitutes life and I do not believe that a fetus fully qualifies as life until later in the pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy in the first trimester is as much killing to me as having a hysterectomy or appendectomy is killing.
[/quote]
Okay. Let’s dig in here, then.
You mind explaining what you think the difference is between the first trimester and the second? [/quote]
You didn’t ask me but here it comes, brain function that is capable at least theoretically to keep the baby alive in ideal conditions. Which also makes Orions point about braindead people kind of valid. [/quote]
If you lose the function of any vital organ, your a goner with out machines to artificially prop up your carcass.
A born baby cannot survive on it’s own either…Go ahead leave one alone on the carpet for 12 hours. You’ll come back to a dead body.
[/quote]
Yes, but that is the main difference between first and second trimester, developed brainfunction. According to my knowledge, I might be wrong, that is the reason why the limit for most abortions is where it is.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
DD and Cortes: Like stronghold, my definition of “life” is different from others posting on here. A person, whether they’re 2 months old, 2 years old or 72 years old, is not the same as a partially developed fetus in the womb.
I have no interest in discussing the infinite numbers of hypothetical situations and “what ifs” that we can certainly come up with. With varying beliefs and definitions, abortion is a complicated topic. And I know the climate of this board.
My point was simply that with our current laws, abortion is not a crime and individuals have a choice. Not everyone thinks abortion is wrong. Some women have them. It’s their decision, their body, and their clump of cells. End of story.[/quote]
No it isn’t, because laws change. And laws can be wrong. But you have to understand that if one believes the unborn is a child, They have every right to interfere. What you said goes both ways, just because you have a different belief about when life begins, doesn’t mean I have to behave according to the way you see it.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
DD and Cortes: Like stronghold, my definition of “life” is different from others posting on here. A person, whether they’re 2 months old, 2 years old or 72 years old, is not the same as a partially developed fetus in the womb.
I have no interest in discussing the infinite numbers of hypothetical situations and “what ifs” that we can certainly come up with. With varying beliefs and definitions, abortion is a complicated topic. And I know the climate of this board.
My point was simply that with our current laws, abortion is not a crime and individuals have a choice. Not everyone thinks abortion is wrong. Some women have them. It’s their decision, their body, and their clump of cells. End of story.[/quote]
I’m not interested in hypothetical situations. I don’t care what people “think” is right and wrong. I want actual reasons. You have them, don’t you?
For all your complaining about religion, so far the only mystical, magical beliefs I’ve heard so far in this thread have come from you and your fellow pro-abortionists.
So, if it isn’t “magic,” then you should be able to kindly point me to the difference that you so keenly discern between the “clump of cells” and the 2 month old child I referred to above.
I’ll be waiting on that.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
DD and Cortes: Like stronghold, my definition of “life” is different from others posting on here. A person, whether they’re 2 months old, 2 years old or 72 years old, is not the same as a partially developed fetus in the womb.
I have no interest in discussing the infinite numbers of hypothetical situations and “what ifs” that we can certainly come up with. With varying beliefs and definitions, abortion is a complicated topic. And I know the climate of this board.
My point was simply that with our current laws, abortion is not a crime and individuals have a choice. Not everyone thinks abortion is wrong. Some women have them. It’s their decision, their body, and their clump of cells. End of story.[/quote]
I’m not interested in hypothetical situations. I don’t care what people “think” is right and wrong. I want actual reasons. You have them, don’t you?
For all your complaining about religion, so far the only mystical, magical beliefs I’ve heard so far in this thread have come from you and your fellow pro-abortionists.
So, if it isn’t “magic,” then you should be able to kindly point me to the difference that you so keenly discern between the “clump of cells” and the 2 month old child I referred to above.
I’ll be waiting on that.
[/quote]
A fetus just a mass of cells until it can function outside of the womb. (Note that I said function not walk around, feed itself, and survive on its own). It has no soul. No destiny. And its not a “miracle from god”.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
A fetus just a mass of cells until it can function outside of the womb. (Note that I said function not walk around, feed itself, and survive on its own). It has no soul. No destiny. And its not a “miracle from god”.
[/quote]
Nice dogma.
I say you have no soul. You aren’t something special from some magic being. I or anyone else can kill you if they want and no one should care.