“Miscarriage in early pregnancy is common. Studies show that about 10% to 20% of women who know they are pregnant have a miscarriage some time before 20 weeks of pregnancy; 80% of these occur in the first 12 weeks. But the actual rate of miscarriage is even higher since many women have very early miscarriages without ever realizing that they are pregnant. One study that followed women’s hormone levels every day to detect very early pregnancy found a total miscarriage rate of 31%.”
Apparently Nature is one of the most flagrant abortionists. I haven’t read through the entire thread, and don’t know if this has been already brought up.
I personally don’t like the practice of arbitrary abortion at all, but I also don’t think it’s my decision. Of course if I CAUSED the conception, I would have a lot more invested in the outcome.
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics. [/quote]
100% of people are murdered by the planet itself eventually.
So you don’t believe dying of natural causes and man made causes are 2 different things? Can I stab you in the heart because you are going to die eventually anyway?
And talking about the soul is really the same thing as the people debating over when mystical “personhood” is granted. Rights are by there nature a supernatural belief. There isn’t a non-religious belief in them.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
“Miscarriage in early pregnancy is common. Studies show that about 10% to 20% of women who know they are pregnant have a miscarriage some time before 20 weeks of pregnancy; 80% of these occur in the first 12 weeks. But the actual rate of miscarriage is even higher since many women have very early miscarriages without ever realizing that they are pregnant. One study that followed women’s hormone levels every day to detect very early pregnancy found a total miscarriage rate of 31%.”
Apparently Nature is one of the most flagrant abortionists. I haven’t read through the entire thread, and don’t know if this has been already brought up.
I personally don’t like the practice of arbitrary abortion at all, but I also don’t think it’s my decision. Of course if I CAUSED the conception, I would have a lot more invested in the outcome.[/quote]
Most of the people killed on the planet are some act of nature, it doesn’t mean we can start drivin’ by schools and sprayin’em down with bullets. The tsunami killed over 100,000 people, that doesn’t mean we can start killing people with impunity.
Besides every body dies eventually.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics. [/quote]
The whole idea is not to play God when you are not God. I don’t know when the soul comes into play. I know that killing humans is wrong and the unborn are humans too. If nature takes it’s course than so be it. If an earth quake swallows up California, I can’t go killing people in Georgia just 'cause nature did it in Cali.
I am sure God is merciful to the souls that never had a chance.
Major congenital birthdefects are often a reason for abortion.
[/quote]
In other words the child had no chance to live if taken to full gestation? I’d have to look at the circumstance to be able to determine the best course of action, but birthing what is tantamount to a dead body if not artificially supported I would consider it. But I’d have to be damned sure I am not euthanizing it, but merely not sustaining it artificially. [/quote]
Well allright then, at last some common ground!
[/quote]
We have a lot of common ground E, even on this issue. For instance, you don’t agree with aborting a child at 36 weeks gestation.
Common ground isn’t fun to discuss. Arguing is :)[/quote]
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics. [/quote]
The whole idea is not to play God when you are not God. I don’t know when the soul comes into play. I know that killing humans is wrong and the unborn are humans too. If nature takes it’s course than so be it. If an earth quake swallows up California, I can’t go killing people in Georgia just 'cause nature did it in Cali.
I am sure God is merciful to the souls that never had a chance. [/quote]
What i find odd pat, is when people resist pulling the plug on a braindead patient by saying, “we should’nt play god”. Well, okay, don’t put a patient like that on a respirator in the first place.
You’re right that the unborn are not can’t feel pain early in its development. And, it can’t think and is not self-aware until muchlater, but how does level of development determine our value? What about humans outside the womb who can’t feel pain, have worse thinking skills, and lack self-awareness than others? If level of development gives us our value, don’t those of us with better thinking skills have more value with less?[/quote]
I’ve answered this in my conversation with forlife Chris.
The absence of a brain is key.
[/quote]
What about the absence of a liver or heart? Can’t do much with out those either. Amd you cannot have a brain, a heart, or any of it with out genetics and life itself. A dead gene is useless, a living nothing is nothing.[/quote]
Major congenital birthdefects are often a reason for abortion.
[/quote]
In other words the child had no chance to live if taken to full gestation? I’d have to look at the circumstance to be able to determine the best course of action, but birthing what is tantamount to a dead body if not artificially supported I would consider it. But I’d have to be damned sure I am not euthanizing it, but merely not sustaining it artificially. [/quote]
I work with a woman who went in for her weekly check up two weeks before her due date. There was no heartbeat. The baby was dead. They forced her to go through a 24 hour labor to birth a dead baby and when it was all over they said that the trauma of the birth would have killed the baby anyway and it would have suffered needlessly. Now, letting any woman go through a 24 hour labor is wrong. If she was not dilating and the baby was not moving into the birth canal, a c-section should have been performed. Letting her go through it to birth a DEAD baby is inhumane. They should have just given her a c-section, but apparently that is not proper procedure. I don’t know about other women, but I am NOT going through a painful labor to birth a dead baby. I want that thing out of me and out NOW! Why put the corpse and me through that?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Nobody gives rights to anyone. Rights can only be taken away.
[/quote]
How can rights be taken away if they are not given? If they were given, someone must have given them.
I don’t understand your reasoning though. That is what I am getting at partially. Maybe, I am missing some premise.
So a brain is what makes a person is what you’re saying?
[quote]No, humans are not created equal. Even by your own admission you think women are not equal to men. You might say otherwise, but your actions and beliefs contradict what you say.
[/quote]
Wow. How do my actions and beliefs contradict that I believe women are not equal to men? My belief is aligned with the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church believes that women are equal to men. Thus, it must be my actions that are in contradiction with my beliefs.
So, what action of mine (or, belief of mine) has you believing I do not see women as equal?
[quote]forlife wrote:
You wouldn’t kill her on a whim, but what if you had to choose between saving her vs. saving someone else?[/quote]
This reminds me of a joke.
The Pope was standing on stage with Nancy Pelosi (I have no clue why though ). He turned to Pelosi and said in his German accent that he had such prestige and authority with the crowd in front of them that with one swift move of his hand he could have every single one of them out of their chairs cheering and yelling with absolute enthusiasm. Pelosi asked, “How is this possible,” wanting to know how one man could have such persuasion over so many people.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Major congenital birthdefects are often a reason for abortion.
[/quote]
I think we have a disconnect between what is law and what is moral.
If I were so persuasive that I convinced the entire United States government, State Governments, and City Governments to make abortion illegal and criminal. Would it be moral to have an abortion?
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’m talking about a situation where you could only save one person, not both.
Translation: What if the baby threatens the mother’s life? In that case, I’m ok with abortion.[/quote]
Principle of Double-Effect. How is the mother’s life being threatened. I threaten my mother’s life every time I am around her because of my awesomeness, the situation doesn’t call for my termination. Casting general laws about moral laws is hazardous, though general moral laws are good, some situations do need further development…otherwise we turn into Fundamentalist. And, no one wants to be accused of that.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics. [/quote]
At conception. What happens to those souls, well those souls go to Heaven. It used to be thought that they would go to limbo, but limbo was a hypothesis not a fact (not to be confused with limbo of the fathers, that is a fact). Now, the general sentiment is that they go to Heaven, this is for a variety of reasons that I could go into, but wish not to. I can give some clues, one is invincible ignorance (never had the chance to be baptized, &c.), and likely has to do with our three fold goodness (we have an inherent tendency to virtue, though because of our fallen nature that tendency gets eroded over time if not preserved).
The reason he can tolerate it is because though life on earth is important, very important. What is most important is where you spend life for eternity. Of course God would not create a man destined to Hell (even though some of our friends on here think he would, just ignore them), he creates all men with the purpose of sharing in his Divine Nature. So, how someone that hasn’t had the chance to reject God can be destined to anywhere but Heaven is beyond me.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics. [/quote]
The whole idea is not to play God when you are not God. I don’t know when the soul comes into play. I know that killing humans is wrong and the unborn are humans too. If nature takes it’s course than so be it. If an earth quake swallows up California, I can’t go killing people in Georgia just 'cause nature did it in Cali.
I am sure God is merciful to the souls that never had a chance. [/quote]
What i find odd pat, is when people resist pulling the plug on a braindead patient by saying, “we should’nt play god”. Well, okay, don’t put a patient like that on a respirator in the first place.
My point is, we play god all the time.
[/quote]
I know you may find this strange, but the rule with such things is that we have to give reasonable resources to keeping those people alive. If it is unreasonable to keep someone alive, well then you can’t “pull the plug.” And just because someone plays god all the time doesn’t mean we should play god or that they should either. Past behavior is not an indication of morality.
NB: This is why I am against heart transplants at the current state of medical technology, because by definition the person is still alive if blood is flowing through the heart. Currently in order to have a heart transplant, you have to keep the blood flowing through the heart while doing the transplant. This goes against the whole fifth commandment.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
I work with a woman who went in for her weekly check up two weeks before her due date. There was no heartbeat. The baby was dead. They forced her to go through a 24 hour labor to birth a dead baby and when it was all over they said that the trauma of the birth would have killed the baby anyway and it would have suffered needlessly. Now, letting any woman go through a 24 hour labor is wrong. If she was not dilating and the baby was not moving into the birth canal, a c-section should have been performed. Letting her go through it to birth a DEAD baby is inhumane. They should have just given her a c-section, but apparently that is not proper procedure. I don’t know about other women, but I am NOT going through a painful labor to birth a dead baby. I want that thing out of me and out NOW! Why put the corpse and me through that? [/quote]
I’m not going to lie, this just gave me the willies.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
Also at what point do religious people believe the Soul comes into play? At conception? If so and up to a third are aborted within the womb from miscarriage, what happens to those souls?
Why would God tolerate such a caustic and intolerable situation if HE values every human life from conception?
EDIT: Not being facetious per se. I would really like to know how you feel about these statistics. [/quote]
The whole idea is not to play God when you are not God. I don’t know when the soul comes into play. I know that killing humans is wrong and the unborn are humans too. If nature takes it’s course than so be it. If an earth quake swallows up California, I can’t go killing people in Georgia just 'cause nature did it in Cali.
I am sure God is merciful to the souls that never had a chance. [/quote]
What i find odd pat, is when people resist pulling the plug on a braindead patient by saying, “we should’nt play god”. Well, okay, don’t put a patient like that on a respirator in the first place.
My point is, we play god all the time.
[/quote]
Not really, at that point your propping up a corpse the person is dead. Just because we can mechanically perform the functions of the brainstem does not mean the person is alive.
Some people just can’t let go. I can’t judge because I have never been in that position.
You’re right that the unborn are not can’t feel pain early in its development. And, it can’t think and is not self-aware until muchlater, but how does level of development determine our value? What about humans outside the womb who can’t feel pain, have worse thinking skills, and lack self-awareness than others? If level of development gives us our value, don’t those of us with better thinking skills have more value with less?[/quote]
I’ve answered this in my conversation with forlife Chris.
The absence of a brain is key.
[/quote]
What about the absence of a liver or heart? Can’t do much with out those either. Amd you cannot have a brain, a heart, or any of it with out genetics and life itself. A dead gene is useless, a living nothing is nothing.[/quote]
Major congenital birthdefects are often a reason for abortion.
[/quote]
In other words the child had no chance to live if taken to full gestation? I’d have to look at the circumstance to be able to determine the best course of action, but birthing what is tantamount to a dead body if not artificially supported I would consider it. But I’d have to be damned sure I am not euthanizing it, but merely not sustaining it artificially. [/quote]
I work with a woman who went in for her weekly check up two weeks before her due date. There was no heartbeat. The baby was dead. They forced her to go through a 24 hour labor to birth a dead baby and when it was all over they said that the trauma of the birth would have killed the baby anyway and it would have suffered needlessly. Now, letting any woman go through a 24 hour labor is wrong. If she was not dilating and the baby was not moving into the birth canal, a c-section should have been performed. Letting her go through it to birth a DEAD baby is inhumane. They should have just given her a c-section, but apparently that is not proper procedure. I don’t know about other women, but I am NOT going through a painful labor to birth a dead baby. I want that thing out of me and out NOW! Why put the corpse and me through that? [/quote]
I wonder why they did that? Or did she just not want to be cut open…I am with you, I’d want it out asap.
). He turned to Pelosi and said in his German accent that he had such prestige and authority with the crowd in front of them that with one swift move of his hand he could have every single one of them out of their chairs cheering and yelling with absolute enthusiasm. Pelosi asked, “How is this possible,” wanting to know how one man could have such persuasion over so many people.