400M times?

Training
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sorry to side track a little, but i’m hoping to get some advice for my timed 1.5 mile run in the military.

approximate recent best times are

400m - 1:08

800m - 2:41

these couple of timings were set after 2km of slow jogs around my army camp on different occasions. not ideal conditions but just decided to test for the sake of testing

current 1.5 mile - 9:33 (about 3 weeks ago)

I started the sprinting towards single digit bodyfat program Sprinting Towards Single Digit Body Fat a couple of weeks ago after my test and I’m halfway through week 2. Not following the upper body lifts to a T but I am doing lower body once a week on weekends.

As much as I love the feeling of going all out for short sprints, seeing that the longest distance I will ever run in the program is 200m, I am wondering what carryover, if any, would it have on my 1.5 mile time. As such I would like to know if it would be more beneficial to include additional 400m/800m intervals to a regime that will have me running no more than 3 or 4 days a week.

some stats if necessary - 21yo, 5’5 @ 137.5

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nyh
whenm is your test?

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[quote]spk wrote:
nyh
whenm is your test?[/quote]

November. I’ve actually already hit the gold timing (9:44) so I’m just hoping to go a little faster or even maintain my timing. I’m not exactly looking to shave a minute off or anything, just having the confidence to be able to run under 9:44 anytime I want is sufficient as I’m also in the process of gaining some size

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[quote]nyh wrote:

[quote]spk wrote:
nyh
whenm is your test?[/quote]

November. I’ve actually already hit the gold timing (9:44) so I’m just hoping to go a little faster or even maintain my timing. I’m not exactly looking to shave a minute off or anything, just having the confidence to be able to run under 9:44 anytime I want is sufficient as I’m also in the process of gaining some size[/quote]

Lots of military people ask about how to lower their run times. I’m in the military so I hear it all the time. The “secret” is knowing who to ask. If you want to lower your 1 mile, 1.5 mile or 2 mile time simply google 1,500 and/or 3,000 meter runners to see how they train.

45

I’m not sure if anyone else on here is still practicing their sprinting but I thought I’d give my update. About 2 months ago in a bout of Olympic fever, I attempted a 400m at the local track and got 68 seconds. (I’m 36 years old, 6-2, 185, no track background or any competitive sports since high school.)

I then decided rather than my typical 3x/wk 3 mile runs, it might be fun to do some HIIT work and see if I could improve my sprint times. Well the first month was lost to a series of hamstring pulls (I was a bit overeager) but in the last month I’ve been doing 200m intervals 3x/wk, usually 4 sprints per session after a one mile jog and a few shorter sprints to warm up. My 200m has steadily improved. A couple months ago, a 31sec run felt very strained and sloppy and required close to maximum effort. Now 31sec, while a few notches above a brisk jog, feels relaxed and controlled. (I could definitely break 30 seconds now if I wanted but I’ve decided I want to steadily improve without overdoing it and hurting myself again.)

Today, I decided to try 400m again for the first time in about 2 months to see if my speedwork has helped me at all. I got 66sec this time, which is maybe not quite as much improvement as I would have liked but not bad considering there was a stiff headwind on the home stretch. I then walked a lap, rested for an additional 5 minutes and ran a second 400m at 75sec. That huge dropoff tells me that my 400m might improve more if I either shorten the rest period between my 200m intervals or do more longer runs to build an aerobic base.

Today also tells me that a sub-60sec 400m, if it ever happens, won’t come anytime soon. I imagine that I might be able to cut a couple more seconds off my time in the next month or two and then after that each additional second will become more and more difficult.

I’d love to hear other people’s updates (100m, 200m, 400m, 800m…) if anyone else has been doing HIIT work.

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If you believe you can just about break 30 seconds in the 200, I assume that’s at 100% effort, then a 66 second 400 is probably where you should be.

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[quote]zecarlo wrote:
If you believe you can just about break 30 seconds in the 200, I assume that’s at 100% effort, then a 66 second 400 is probably where you should be. [/quote]

Good point. 30sec wasn’t quite full effort. I’d guess that if I went 100% (and didn’t destroy my hamstrings) I’d get 28-29sec. I think I’ll need a 27sec 200m and better speed endurance if I want any chance of breaking a 60sec 400m. Right now I’d guess that 64sec is the best I’m capable of.
I’m more intrigued by what my maximum potential is in the 100m and 200m. I’m pretty certain that with a few months of training, I’ll be able to hit around 13sec/27sec in the 100m/200m. What I don’t know is if that’s my ceiling or if someone with my age and genetics can continue to progress even further. I assume ~12sec/25sec (and maybe a 56sec 400m) would be the best I could ever hope for. If I were capable of better than that, I would think that I would have been faster from day one and that my progress would be faster as well.

I know a lot of people on her do HIIT and that some of you began this work as untrained 30+ year olds. Somebody must have tracked his progress??

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I’m a few years younger than you, but a lot heavier and if I run 3 miles, it takes me about 4-5 days to recover.

I mentioned in the other thread that I hit 400 for the first time once for 85s at maybe 85%? and ran 200x3 for the first time at 35s each at probably 90%.

Was supposed to condition the other day, but missed it. I may give sprints a try tomorrow, but nothing over 50m.

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This is turning into kind of an interesting thread IMO. Keep it going guys.

Running 400’s right around 60s myself (self-timed by hand). After 15 min warm up - 37# loaded carry (put daughter in kelty and walk to daycare) usually do 200’s just under 30s x2 recovering in between efforts until breathing/heart rate drops back to normal (about 60s) 2x/week. More doing easy “strides” focusing on form, especially quick, light foot strikes probably about 80-85% effort. Try to fit in one conversational pace run for about 20 min 1x/wk. 33 yrs old, 230# bw (lean-ish), non-competitive runner no track history.

Home life is kinda f’d up for me right now (wife’s in and out of hospital for days at a time w chemotherapy and a toddler at home). Not training enough to make gains, just want to hold steady til things settle down some. I know, no excuses, but life happens.

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Thank for the responses 1 Man Island and Batman!

Most importantly, Batman- my deepest sympathies with your family situation. That’s a lot to handle at age 33 (or any age) and I wish your wife a very swift recovery.

There’s really no graceful way to segue back into our relatively trivial conversation but I hope your training is keeping you sane during trying times.

The fact that you both are well over 200 lbs raises an interesting question about the ideal size for a runner. Everyone knows that strength relative to body weight is crucial and provided you stay lean, I would think that ratio should increase the more muscle you add. The average sprinter however seems to be about 6-0, 185… so clearly at some point extra muscle becomes a negative.

I guess upper body muscle is only needed to the extent that the arms/shoulders counteract torso rotation so a 400lb bench press isn’t necessary and just burdens the legs with more weight to carry. And sprinters’ legs, at least compared to body builders, are pretty slender so maybe massive muscles create too heavy a lever to move quickly.

Anyway, I’m fairly close to the ideal size- maybe 15 more lbs of muscle, 5lbs less fat, and slighly lighter frame… but even with that I’d never be a 10sec guy or even an 11sec guy so clearly there’s more at play.

The fact that you can move that fast at 230lb is pretty impressive, Batman. Have you ever tried a 100m or 200m at 100% effort? Sounds to me like you’d be around 12.5 and 26. I think I may have asked you in the other thread what your times were like when you first started and you didn’t remember. I guess I’m looking for someone to tell me that they started out slow and made steady progress because that would keep me motivated. Well, looking forward to hearing future updates from each of you.

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Did some hill work today (see log for details) for first time in a couple months.

Most interesting part about it was how different muscles in different legs felt more activated than others.

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[quote]bruceprice wrote:
Thank for the responses 1 Man Island and Batman!

Most importantly, Batman- my deepest sympathies with your family situation. That’s a lot to handle at age 33 (or any age) and I wish your wife a very swift recovery.

There’s really no graceful way to segue back into our relatively trivial conversation but I hope your training is keeping you sane during trying times.

The fact that you both are well over 200 lbs raises an interesting question about the ideal size for a runner. Everyone knows that strength relative to body weight is crucial and provided you stay lean, I would think that ratio should increase the more muscle you add. The average sprinter however seems to be about 6-0, 185… so clearly at some point extra muscle becomes a negative.

I guess upper body muscle is only needed to the extent that the arms/shoulders counteract torso rotation so a 400lb bench press isn’t necessary and just burdens the legs with more weight to carry. And sprinters’ legs, at least compared to body builders, are pretty slender so maybe massive muscles create too heavy a lever to move quickly.

Anyway, I’m fairly close to the ideal size- maybe 15 more lbs of muscle, 5lbs less fat, and slighly lighter frame… but even with that I’d never be a 10sec guy or even an 11sec guy so clearly there’s more at play.

The fact that you can move that fast at 230lb is pretty impressive, Batman. Have you ever tried a 100m or 200m at 100% effort? Sounds to me like you’d be around 12.5 and 26. I think I may have asked you in the other thread what your times were like when you first started and you didn’t remember. I guess I’m looking for someone to tell me that they started out slow and made steady progress because that would keep me motivated. Well, looking forward to hearing future updates from each of you.[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words regarding my wife. It’s tough, but it’s amazing what you can handle when you have no choice.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I ran a hand timed 100 in 12 and change. Bodyweight was closer to 205# at the time though (I’ve got a fairly big/heavy frame). Never done a timed max effort 200. Also, my training/progression was way to haphazard to offer a time-line. Like I said though, I made a quantum leap when I (semi)figured out good sprint mechanics. Gains thereafter came much more slowly.

If you can afford it and it’s important enough to you, I suggest investing in a reputable weekend “speed camp” of some kind where someone who knows their onions can break down your stride and make corrections. You may find it helps get you moving noticeably faster. Failing that there is lots of free info out there, but there is something about having somebody else evaluate what you’re doing (and preferably reviewing video with you) that you can’t get reading and practicing on your own. Our perceptions are skewed and we what we think we are doing often bears little resemblance to what we are actually doing.

All the best.

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1 Man Island- I’ve haven’t tried hill work (not too many opportunities for that in Brooklyn) but you’ve got me curious. I did just purchase an 80 lb vest but it would look like I was doing SWAT team drills if I ever wore it outside of my apartment so for now I’m just going to use it for weighted pull ups and push ups.

Batman- I’m not sure I’m brave enough to go to a speed camp but filming myself is a great idea. I feel that my form has improved greatly but you’re right- my perception might not match reality. I’ve been running taller and concentrating on not overstriding and it feels so much easier and more natural. I haven’t seen any sort of quantum leap in my times yet but I do feel like I’ve raised the ceiling on what I’m capable of doing. Like you mentioned, now I feel like it’s all about moving my legs back faster. When I want to run a 30 second 200m instead of a 31.5, I just focus on flinging my heels back towards my butt very quickly. Hopefully as I put in a little more time on the track and in the weight room, I can gradually increase the speed with which I drive my legs back. I’m trying to be patient in getting comfortable with these new mechanics rather than running 100% immediately.
One thing I’m not sure about is whether I’m getting enough knee lift. That’s the one part that feels a bit unnatural though I watched a slow mo video of usain bolt and his knees go very high.

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Update for anyone who’s interested:
I ran some 200m intervals yesterday for the first time in a couple weeks. Previously if I ran at what felt like 95% effort I would time between 30-31. I started a couple months earlier not knowing what I could do because my tight hamstrings wouldn’t allow even close to full effort. Well yesterday, I ran at what felt like 90% effort and was shocked to see 29 seconds on my stopwatch. I did two more runs and got in the 29s on both. I’m not sure if the 2 week rest helped me or if maybe it was the fact that I’ve been lifting and getting stronger. It felt good though. I had wondered what running faster would feel like and the fact that it didn’t feel like I was exerting any more effort than usual was very encouraging. It makes me feel like I may have the potential to improve by a few more seconds.
On all three runs, I ran the curve at about 14.7 while taking a somewhat gradual start and feeling like I was holding back/pacing myself. I ran harder on the straight and felt a little jelly-legged over the final 30-40m. So endurance is definitely an issue. I should probably run some 100s at close to full effort if I want a better sense of my top speed. I feel like at max effort right now, I’d be in the low 13s for 100m and high 27s for 200m. That probably means I have just barely enough speed to crack 60 seconds in the 400m but I think it would take a lot more endurance training for me to actually do that.

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2 weeks rest helped you more

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I did it in 53 seconds in high school. Of course that was 18 years and 60 pounds ago.

Edited to add: I was getting smoked at all the meets by guys running 49-51.

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If you’re untrained that’s a great time I’d say. For someone who’s trained I’d say low-mid 50’s is a good time.