dude my training got up to 90 in those three months did you read what wrote anyway can you tell me what 5 Pro’s are?
Normal 531 looks like this
Week 1 5/5/5+ @ 65%/70%/75%
Week 2 3/3/3+ @ 75%/80%/85%
Week 3 5/3/1+ @ 85%/90%/95%
5s Pro looks like this
Week 1 5/5/5 @ 65%/70%/75
Week 2 5/5/5 @ 75%/80%/85%
Week 3 5/5/5 @ 85%/90%/95%
No PR sets, only do 5 reps
Jokers are up to you. People will say what they want. But it’s up to you. My personal approach is that if after I do my last set of 5 (I also do 5s Pro) on week 3 or 6 (my 95% set) and they feel like a rocket, I feel powerful and explosive, I feel like I could have done way more than 5 (NEVER DO MORE THAN 5 IN 5S PRO). Only of all of those conditions are met do I do jokers. I personally always like to do jokers regardless on week 6 if I’m taking a deload. If I know I’m taking a week to recover I go balls out on week 6. Dunno if Jim would recommend it… But it’s fun
If you get to week 3 or 6 where you are lifting your set of 95%, if you cannot lift all 5 reps solidly. Your training max is to high.
Hope this helps you out bro. Feel free to ask any follow up questions. Sometimes people can act like dicks on here and makes you hesitate to ask questions. F#@k that, ask away
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Oh yeah, about your original question. Which has been give little attention. Check out Jim’s template here on T Nation called. 531 for hardgainers. It’s easy to find in the search bar. I’ve done it myself, it’s great. The volume for Bench and the press where really on point for me. My press didn’t go up much (from what I’ve seen and heard, that’s the hardest one to progress consistently) but my bench got much stronger doing the hardgainer template. A word of warning though, it’s a tough template. I recommend bumping your bench and press down a bit. The 5x5 top set on bench can be brutal. And the 10x5 for the press is a total pain in the ass. If your TM is too high for either of these you’ll fail this template.
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It is good that you get that. Lifting is a long term pursuit, and it will involve a lot of uneven development.
I think it is important to reflect on the general structure of Wendler’s program at this point. The general strategy, as he has presented it, is to usually do 2 leader cycles with higher volume, and one anchor cycle to realize the strength gains. The same programming will not be optimal for all lifters, all of the lifts, or at all points in their lifting life. You plan the three cycles, do them as planned, then assess and plan the next three cycles.
In your case, you found that whatever you are doing is working fine for squat and deadlift. You might want to keep that programming the same for the next three cycles. Maybe your squat responds well to 5x8 FSL and whatever assistance you are doing for it. Awesome.
Your bench and press did not make progress, so, as Wendler has said elsewhere, you should plan different work for them. First, as others have pointed out, decrease your TM for those lifts. I would suggest an 80-85% TM, so probably 70-75kg for your bench. Remember that Wendler has emphasized that the TM is a tool for getting stronger, and trying to use a higher TM is often going to hurt your progress. We must all check our egos and start low. Also, it is nearly always recommended that you do 5’s PRO for the leader cycles, and keep PR sets to the anchors.
Now, you have tried 5x8 FSL and Jokers, and that did not work. So, try something different. No Jokers. You can see in 5/3/1 Forever that Wendler nearly always uses Jokers only in an anchor cycle. You can see his discussion of Jokers in that book, but I would just program according to his recommendations. Here are some options:
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5x5 FSL. Maybe you need to go with a lighter load in the supplemental work. This allows you to really focus on the quality of those reps, and you can increase assistance work those days (probably to 50-100 reps for each category). JFG recommended 5’s PRO, FSL, and accessories, and that seems like exactly the right recommendation to me.
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Boring But Strong, which is 10 sets of 5 at FSL. If you use an appropriate TM, you can focus on all of these reps being strong, fast, focusing on getting perfect form and lifting powerfully.
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Boring But Big. Maybe your pressing would respond well to even more volume.
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5x5 Second Set Last. Maybe some practice at this heavier work would help your bench and press.
In any case, the general idea is to reset your TM, do two cycles of one of those and then see how the anchor (3rd cycle) will go. Then assess. Suppose you do BBS. If it works, awesome, repeat. If not, try a different one. Just keep attacking it in different ways, in 3-cycle programs, until you find what does work for you at this point.
Regarding assistance work, keep in mind that most of the programs that Wendler now recommends have all three categories (push, pull, core) on each day. So, perhaps make sure that you are doing appropriate push assistance work (pushups, dips, dumbbell presses, or tricep pushdowns) on your squat and deadlift days too. Keep track of what assistance work you are doing so you might be able to find out what does or does not seem to help you. If your current assistance is only pulling (dumbbell rows and pull ups), then it might be that you need to adjust your assistance work.
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Random thoughts:
-if you’re doing 82x3 on bench, then 82 is your TM, not 90. 3 reps = 90%TM, as a generic rule. So your TM should be 82 if you want a 90%TM, or lower (5 solid reps) if you want an 85%TM (which is probably recommended, especially for upper body lifts);
-if your press is stalling at 60x5, simply go back 2 cycles (lower TM of 4, bringing it to 56). Press is a bitch for most people;
-if you’re grinding reps in the “+” sets, then Jokers are NOT to be done after; if you’re grinding reps in the Joker sets then you should NOT do them. I do them for deads and squats, don’t do them on bench and press. I’ve seen some improvement doing rest pause on the “+” set of press, simply take 15-20 seconds of rest, then do another 1-2 reps (with the same weight);
-Bar speed is important, it’s stressed out a lot in Forever - bar speed means that once you start moving the bar, it keeps moving smoothly and somewhat accelerating or at least staying constant in his barpath. It doesn’t have to move FAST (obviously it will be slower at higher loads), but it needs to be controlled and smooth the whole time;
-if you’re doing good with two lifts (i.e. squats and deads, in your case), keep doing what you’re doing. If you’re VERY good with one or two lifts, consider keeping it simple with main work + 5x5FSL, it’s what I do with deads and has worked wonderfully.
Play around with other options for the press and the bench and see from there what works best for you - my press seemed to respond well to BBS (10x5@FSL), my bench to 5x5SSL. The first allowed me to accumulate volume with fast and solid reps, the latter to focus on moving heavier weight for fewer reps while still focusing on technique (which is exactly what I needed for bench). Find out what works for you
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Yes, I read it.
5 Pro’s are in the books.
Your TM is too high.
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Jokers are sets you CAN do, but you don’t have to di them. As I already
wrote, do them if you get MANY reps on the + set.
@jcmcnorton @revchad First of all I want to thank you both for taking the time to answer my question.
I’ll try to do what @jcmcnorton suggested for a cycle or two to see if it works. If not as you said @revchad I’ll change my approach. I’ll also lower my training maxes and stop the dick mesuring contest with myself. @jcmcnorton the only problem with the hardgainers template is I don’t have a sled or a prowler so I’ll have to go for hill sprints but other than that it’s awesome I also don’t think I’ll have problems recovering so it’s cool.
I still didn’t get the part about leaders and anchors though I’m missing out on something cause I didn’t get the new book yet.
And thanks again for the responces you’ve been really helpfull I’ll inform you about the process
PS. Thanks @atlashrugged also awesome book like most of ayn rands
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