254 Swift Boat Vets

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’ve already been berating their honor and character Elk, they don’t like it, but they dismiss it of course.

I thought conservatives were always trying to convince us that only they knew the difference between right and wrong.

Politically motivated attacks based on 30 year old anger built up on top of subtle statements converted to lies as they get commented upon by pundits and media. It’s shameful.

These jokers think the more lame ass quotes they post, and the longer they are, the more likely people will believe their bullshit. Sigh.[/quote]

vroom,

If you take a close look at the above post you see several unreasonable attacks. Attacks that just about all of us have refrained from. They get tiresome after a while.

You have attacked personally just about everyone who disagrees with you. You have attacked my country (the bragart comment, and others). If someone disagrees with you they are “liars.” If someone posts quotes, the quotes are somehow “lame.”

I like this forum. I think it is filled with decent people. Some of them (like Lumpy, tme and RSU) I do not agree with. However, all three have my respect. They are witty guys who see things differently than I do, and that’s okay. The arguments that they put forth are not filled with hate. They can disagree with me (and others) without being disagreeable (in most cases, none of us are perfect).

I am calling on you, right now, to drop the hate based attacks and debate the facts. I don’t think anyone does that any better than BostonBarrister. Take a page out of his play book and stick to the issue at hand.

I hope you take these comments in the spirit in which they are given.

Take care,

Zeb

42

Zeb, first, I have no issue with your post. You are entitled to your opinion obviously. However, your interpretation of my post is not something I can control.

Let’s take a look at it a bit deeper.

[quote]Politically motivated attacks based on 30 year old anger built up on top of subtle statements converted to lies as they get commented upon by pundits and media. It’s shameful.

These jokers think the more lame ass quotes they post, and the longer they are, the more likely people will believe their bullshit. Sigh. [/quote]

Politically motivated attacks are coming from the swift boat vets. They are making subtle statements. The media and politicians pervert these statements into bold-faced lies. It is shameful.

From there, I’ve namelessly denigrated people who quote and post these bold-faced lies. If any nameless person out there decides to take that to heart and be offended, that is their choice.

It is no different than claiming liberals or democrats are “God haters” or whatever. Every time you lump everyone into a negative statement, you or anyone else, are doing the same thing. It happens all the time.

Statements like “Canada exists under the protective wing of the US, blah blah blah” aren’t meant to engender friendship and good relations either.

So, on one side, free speech is a great thing, but you’d wish I didn’t exercise it the way I do. What the heck is that? Think about it a bit. I’m saying what I intend to say based on the environment I’m participating in.

The negativism is present on all sides.

43

254 men signing a letter is not propaganda or lies, it is a FACT. John Kerry’s voice being played over and over again to prisoners in the Hanoi Hilton is a FACT. John Kerry meeting with VC officials in France is a FACT. No one can find any evidence that Kerry fulfilled his 2 year Naval Reserve AND his 17 required days of site-training during those 2 years – FACT.
And anyone questioning my honor on this site can take a long look at the monitor and imagine a giant finger there.

44

vroom:

I have never stated anything negative about Canada. Can you say the same thing about the United States? I am tired of reading personal attacks on my country and those who do not hold your point of view.

Go back and look at your posts. Many are filled with personal attacks. There is only one way to interpret them and you know it!

You throw out profane statements directly at people! You are less interested in the issue than the person. Yes, I have called some groups “God haters” for their attacks on religion. However, it has not been a personal attack, not on democrats as a group, or liberals. Go back and check!

You either are aware of your vitriolic posts, or you are not. Either way that does not change the fact that you are posting them.

45

This is actually funny. Your statement applies to most people in here most of the time. What irony!

46

peartmath,

Your last post was priceless!!!

Keep it up.

JeffR

47

Peart, unfortunately those are not the issues that were being discussed…

48

It seems many if not all of you are missing a very important point here. That is that George H. W. Bush was head of the CIA during GW’s Nat’l Guard tour (Vietnam years). This automatically excluses GW from serving overseas in a time of war as it is a matter of national security. A man in politcal office cannot risk a kinapping type scenario of his children by the enemy… to much at risk. Imagine the demands that would be placed on the U.S. if the enemy had the son of the CIA director as a hostage/barganing tool.

49

vroom:

I am not claiming that the rest of us are perfect. However, you by far spread the most caustic and hateful remarks!

I will state this once again: lets debate the issues without the vroom type name calling. It should not be that hard.

50

Bwahahahahaha. Whatever. Psst, by the way, I incorrectly attributed an attack on Canada to you, sorry about that. Looking back I see it was someone else.

51

vroom and elkhntr,

Take it from this Marine. You may attack BB and Zeb but you can’t defend Kerry. I volunteer frequently at VFW and DAV functions and one thing you begin to learn about vets is that the more down to earth one’s have high gain bullshit detectors. Everyone single one I have broached the subject with has definitely felt that Kerry is an O-turd. The kind of officer that had he not tried to get out of Vietnam as quickly as possible, would have gotten someone killed doing one of his reenactments. (The fact that he felt motivated to do reeenactments blows my mind every time I consider it.)

BB… Keep up the good work, I appreciate the time you save me by digging up newsworthy items to reinforce your well-stated points.

52

Quan2m, I’m not sure if that type of anecdotal feeling really means very much.

Until they saw him talking to the senate about atrocities or until they saw the swift boat ads they probably would not even have any reason to be aware of Kerry.

However, if the first exposure you have to Kerry is through the “win at all costs” propaganda of the conservative machine, of course you’ll form this opinion.

If you’ve done a serious study to determine when and how these people first heard of Kerry I’d love to hear it though.

53

vroom:

Thanks for the correction! I would never state a disparaging word about Canada. Can you clain the same thing about the USA?

54

Zeb, I call them as I see them. That means from time to time you have to state things people don’t like to hear.

That being said, I’ve stated many times that I love the US and that I’ve worked and lived there… so I know what I’m talking about when I make that claim.

I’m afraid that the US, as well as Canada of course, does indeed have flaws. I think it is appropriate that they be discussed and that they can be discussed.

55

vroom:

Yes, I agree that discussing problems that a country has is well within the bounds of good debate. However, calling Americans “braggarts” as you have done is out of line. It only alientates those whom you are trying to reach.

From this point forward let’s have a good debate on the issues and save the name calling for those who do not understand the issues.

Deal?

56

[quote]vroom wrote:
Quan2m, I’m not sure if that type of anecdotal feeling really means very much.

Until they saw him talking to the senate about atrocities or until they saw the swift boat ads they probably would not even have any reason to be aware of Kerry.

However, if the first exposure you have to Kerry is through the “win at all costs” propaganda of the conservative machine, of course you’ll form this opinion.

If you’ve done a serious study to determine when and how these people first heard of Kerry I’d love to hear it though.[/quote]

quan2um – Thanks man. It’s always good to hear from the vets. I have a few in my family as well, so I know how they feel (2 Repubs, 1 Dem, all can’t stand Kerry), but it’s nice to hear from a vet who works with the veteran organizations that I’m on the mark. [EDIT: I should add that my Democrat veteran grandfather also dislikes Bush, and probably won’t vote at all, but that highlights something else I’ve been saying for a long time: Anybody But Bush isn’t enough - Kerry has to sell himself, and he’s doing a poor job thusfar].

vroom –

If you assume the first exposure the veterans have had to Kerry, after the Democratic primaries and the news coverage since he has been the de facto Democratic nominee, really was the Swiftboat ads, I think you are doing our veteran voters a grave disservice. I think they tend to be a tad more informed than your statement would imply.

Kerry has been front-and-center on the news at least since the Iowa caucus, which he won despite the pundits having written off his candidacy.

Kerry was among the top candidates for the Democratic presidential nominee from the beginning. And he released his Viet Nam book before the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth was even formed.

All this was before any Swiftboat Veteran ads.

And he was a Senator for almost 20 years – an outspoken one at that.

Given that, I don’t think you can blame the Swiftboat Veterans for creating an image of John Kerry before John Kerry had a chance to create his own image.

The real problem for Kerry lies in the fact he centered his image on his 4 1/2 months in Viet Nam, and now these ads are coming in that not only attack him where he thought he had his major strength (in comparison to Bush, which, as a political calculation, is why he flip flopped on his previous position that Viet Nam shouldn’t be emphasized – see above), but also reinforce the major questions people had about his character, namely his trustworthiness an political opportunism (flip-flop).

Unfortunately for Kerry, I predict this whole kerfluffle on the medals is really just a gap filler. As the election draws closer, I suspect his testimony to the Senate, and his protest activities, will be the Viet Nam activities that get more press. And those will be much more damaging now, when he is trying to convince the voters of his viability as commander in chief, and that he would be hard-nosed in prosecuting the terror war. Voters already distrust him on those points, and many voters are voting on those points. He may have some serious trouble on his hands.

57

BB, not everybody watches the news and political blather every day like some of us.

You would be surprised how many people get their political fix during commercials in “the price is right” or “oprah” or some other claptrap.

Or, if you prefer, there is the group that catches it while sucking back beer at the local bar and grumbles about it to their compadres.

It’s a conversation thing. You can claim all these people are on top of all these things, and I’d suspect that this isn’t necessarily true.

Most people aren’t on top of very much.

58

BB,

I agree!

59

This letter to John Kerry says it all,

An open letter to Senator John F. Kerry:

My wife had rotator cuff surgery earlier this year and the recovery is terribly painful. Then she developed staph-epi infection, and they had to cut the same scar open and operate on her again. Just thinking about the pain and anxiety of facing that painful surgery a second time in the same scar makes me cringe.

That experience, however pales in comparison to what I am going through right now in my heart. The old hurts are surfacing and the feelings of betrayal by fellow citizens, and their leader stirring them up, are breaking my heart again. I am being cut in the same scar. How did we who served in Vietnam suddenly become cold blooded killers, torturers and rapists of the like of the Nazi SS or the Taliban?

Most of us were American soldiers who grew up idolizing John Wayne, Roy Rogers and all the other heroes. That was why we volunteered. But for political expediency, you, John Kerry, have rewritten history again. After spending only four months in the country of Vietnam, you testified before Congress in 1971 in these exact words about incidents you supposedly witnessed or heard about from other vets:

“They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals, turned up the power, cut off limbs, blowed up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.”

I was a green beret officer who volunteered for duty in Vietnam and fought in the thick of it in 1968 and 1969 on a Special Forces A-team on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, just for starters. We were the elite. We saw the most action. Everybody in the world knows that. But we did not just kill people. We built a church, a school, treated illnesses, passed out soap, food and clothing and had fun and loving interaction with the indigenous people of Vietnam, just like our boys did in Normandy, Baghdad, Saigon and everywhere American soldiers ever served. We all gave away our candy bars and rations to kids; our hearts to oppressed people all over the globe.

My children and grandchildren could read your words, and think those horrendous things about me, Mr. Kerry. You are a bold-faced unprincipled liar and a disgrace. You have dishonored me and all my fellow Vietnam veterans!

Sure, there were a couple of bad-apples, but I saw none and I saw it all. And if I did, as an army officer, it was my obligation to stop it, or at the very least, report it. Why is there not a single record anywhere of you ever reporting any incidents like this or having the perpetrators arrested? The answer is simple. You are a liar!

Your medals and mine are not a free pass for lifetime, Senator Kerry, to bypass charactar, integrity, and morality. I earn my green beret over and over, daily, in all aspects of my life.

Eight National Guard green berets, and other National Guard soldiers have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and you totally dishonored their widows and families by lumping National Guard service in with being a draft-dodger, conscientious objector, and deserter, just so you can try to sabotage the patriotism of our President, who proudly served as an Air National Guard jet pilot.

I have a son earning his green beret at Fort Bragg right now and his wife serves honorably in the Air National Guard (just as did our President) and I am as proud of her as I am of my own son. I volunteered for Vietnam and have no problem whatsoever with President Bush being our Commander-In-Chief.
In fact, I am proud of him as our leader.

Senator Kerry, you personally derailed the Vietnam Human Rights Bill, HR2883 in 2001 after it passed the House by a 411 to 1 vote and thousands of pro-American Montagnard tribes people in Vietnam died since then who could otherwise have been saved. Earlier, as Chair of the Senate Select Committee on MIA/Pow Affairs, you personally quashed the efforts of any and all veterans to report sightings of living POW’s, when you held those reins in Congress. You have fought tooth and nail to push for the United States to normalize relations with Vietnam for years. Why, Mr. Kerry?

Simple, your first cousin, C. Steward Forbes, CEO of Colliers, International recently signed a contract with Hanoi that is worth billions of dollars for Colliers International to become the exclusive real estate representative for the country of Vietnam.

“Hanoi John” now that it works for you, you beat your chest about your Vietnam service. But to me, you are a phony, opportunistic hypocrite. You are one of those politicians that is like a fertilizer machine, all that’s coming out is horse manure and you are spreading it everywhere!

Medals do not make a man. Morals do!

Don Bendell - Cannon City, Colorado…

60

See the whole problem with this whole thing is this, and this article I found says it the best. This whole Swift Boat Vets, the talk about Vietnam will only go away, IF the mainstream press and media, would put massive pressure on John Kerry to release all the documents. And it is not being done. And because it is not, this talk will just continue more and more. And open up more old wounds.

By Kevin D. Korenthal
Aug 20, 2004

The Democratic Nominee, Senator John F. Kerry was among those that bullied the president into signing a release to have all of his Air National Guard service records released to the public. You remember the assault: The media went non-stop quoting this Democrat and that Democrat calling on Bush to prove that he did not go Absent Without Leave (AWOL) from the Guard where he served, stateside as a pilot. Democrats that had never served in any branch of the military like DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe were among those screeching the loudest for Bush to release the records but John Kerry; the decorated Vietnam Veteran was over on the side agreeing Bush is not being forthcoming. Not that this issue even matters against the issues. Nonetheless, Bush complied.

Fast forward to today. Senator Kerry?s medals from Vietnam are being challenged by a group of veterans that served with Mr. Kerry in the Mekong Delta of Vietnam. Among the allegations Mr. Kerry has not fully answered are those that challenge the severity of and the circumstances surrounding 2 of Kerry?s 3 purple hearts, the commendation to those who are significantly wounded in battle. John E. O?Neill who leads the Swift Boat Vets For Truth and is the co-author of Unfit For Command insists he?s only trying to spread the truth about a man who has used his combat record as the centerpiece of his presidential bid. Based on Mr. O?Neill?s words and actions and on his critical comments of Kerry dating all the way back to 1972, we have reason to believe the allegations against Mr. Kerry do have merit.

The need for answers does not stop there. This week the Bush Campaign came out with a television add that blasts the Democrat nominee for missing almost all of the Senate Intelligence Committee meetings while just 2 weeks ago claiming he would ?rebuild our intelligence community? after the failures of 9/11 and Iraq. Specifically the Bush ad claims John Kerry missed 70 meetings in a row following the 1st WTC attack in 1993. Today the Kerry campaign in it?s usual spin says that Kerry did indeed miss the PUBLIC meetings but went to the entire closed-door Intelligence Committee
meetings throughout his time on that committee. The records from the open committee meetings are a matter of public record and cannot be disputed. But the records of attendance to the closed-door meetings cannot be released on a specific member w/out that member?s authorization. The Head of The Senate Intelligence Committee has said that upon receiving such authorization from Mr. Kerry he would produce the records.

You have heard the Democrats convict the Bush Administration of being ?the most secretive administration in history?. The Democrats as we have discussed have had no compunction about demanding The President be 100% forthcoming. But where are the calls from the top Democrats for Kerry to release his Vietnam Medical
records that would describe the nature and severity of the wounds he used to obtain 3 purple hearts and thus an early ticket home from Vietnam? Why aren?t the talking heads from CNN, ABC, MSNBC, CBS as well as the editorial writers of The New York & Los Angeles Times calling for John Kerry to give permission for the Chairman of the Select Intelligence Committee to release his attendance records?

http://www.vietcongcandidate.com/index.php?p=20

Oh and with the talk and centering on what John Kerry did after he came back form Vietnam. That discussion is coming. As well as wait till the POW’s against Kerry begin their talk, and speaking out. And this issue will not nor will these vets allow it to go away.
Especially since John Kerry said, “I am reporting for duty”…

Joe