2006 Tour De France

Off Topic
61

Most time is gained in the mountains most of the time. You can lose so much more in the mountains than on the flat stages.

Only the strongest climbers, usually the team leaders and therefore overall riders, are strong enough to come along in the mountains so if you are able to separate from them and gain time, you are usually gaining time in the overall classification. On the flat stages there are way more riders in a team that can do the work and control the race.

So for example if you are my competitor and you escape from the peloton, I can have my team ride tempo to ensure the gap doesnt get to be too much. Also, they will work with the sprint teams to reel in the escapees.

Thats why it pays huge to have “helpers” in the mountains. Take the stage a few days ago won by Menchov of Dutch team Rabobak, he had Michael Boogerd and Rasmussen ride a brutal tempo for him till the point only the strongest riders stayed on and then he was able to finish the stage with a victory and gain significant time in the overall classification.

The other place to gain time is the time trial and team time trial, it is usually not enough to only be a strong climber, you also have to be a strong time trial rider, exception was maybe Marco Pantani. If you look at the last 15 years or so, the winners were good at both, Armstrong, Ullrich, Indurain, Lemond, Fignon, etc.

A

[quote]CC wrote:
As I’m a pretty much a newb fan when it comes to cycling, I have a question:

Are the mountain stages the only stages where significant time can be gained/lost? It seems like that’s where all the separation is occurring. Is there really a big difference seen in the second time trial? If anyone could point me to a resource on cycling strategy, teamwork, etc. that’d be great.[/quote]

62

That was amazing, it was neck on neck though time wise with Fignon right? I believe I was actually in a French cafe that day in Montpellier watching it live on tv, man, those French were pissed when Lemond pulled it off. I think that may have been one day before they went to the Champs Elysee.

[quote]chrismcl wrote:
CC, Greg LeMond won his TdF with his performance in the 2nd TT. I forgot how far he was back on time but he made up a large deficit and his average speed for the TT was insane.[/quote]

63

AA, I’m just imagining a guy your size riding a road bike. Funny stuff.

64

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
That was amazing, it was neck on neck though time wise with Fignon right? I believe I was actually in a French cafe that day in Montpellier watching it live on tv, man, those French were pissed when Lemond pulled it off. I think that may have been one day before they went to the Champs Elysee.

chrismcl wrote:
CC, Greg LeMond won his TdF with his performance in the 2nd TT. I forgot how far he was back on time but he made up a large deficit and his average speed for the TT was insane.

[/quote]

Lemond can thank his aerobars for that win, for sure. The TT was very short, and no one thought it would be possible to make up the deficit.

65

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
That was amazing, it was neck on neck though time wise with Fignon right? I believe I was actually in a French cafe that day in Montpellier watching it live on tv, man, those French were pissed when Lemond pulled it off. I think that may have been one day before they went to the Champs Elysee.

Hi
The last time trial that year (89) was into Paris on the last day of the tour; it’s the only time they’ve ever done that.

I know that the organisers like the mass sprint on the last stage but it was pure theater Lemond winning by 8 secs on the last day.

It’s interesting that France hasn’t had a real challenger since Fignon failed to win that day.

Regards Chris

66

Haha, that was a long time ago brother. I weighed 100 lbs less back then. But I have been on one of my dads road bikes 2 years ago and he was laughing his ass off.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
AA, I’m just imagining a guy your size riding a road bike. Funny stuff.[/quote]

67

Yes you are correct my friend. It was in 1989 and he was behind 50 seconds and made up 58 seconds. I just looked it up, he rode an incredible average of 54.545 km/hour, one of the fastest time trials ever in de Tour (Zabriskie 05).

I think that the 89 Tour was one of the best ever, 5 stage wins for Dutch riders, including the prologue by Breukink and the most amazing solo breakaway in the Alps I have ever seen by Gert-Jan Theunisse, winning L’Alp D’Huez.

Its too bad that they dont do that anymore, the time trial on the last day that is, makes for great drama. That last stage is always symbolic, I have never seen a rider high in the overall try a break on the last day to make up time. Must be Tour code.

It is fun to see the break aways on the Champs but they always end in a mass sprint, or just about always.

As far as French riders after Fignon, Jalabert and Virenque come to mind but neither had enough. Also, I thought Moreau would have a shot this year with a lot of the favorites out of it but I guess that brutal mountain stage the other day answered that.

A

[quote]Youch wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
That was amazing, it was neck on neck though time wise with Fignon right? I believe I was actually in a French cafe that day in Montpellier watching it live on tv, man, those French were pissed when Lemond pulled it off. I think that may have been one day before they went to the Champs Elysee.

Hi
The last time trial that year (89) was into Paris on the last day of the tour; it’s the only time they’ve ever done that.

I know that the organisers like the mass sprint on the last stage but it was pure theater Lemond winning by 8 secs on the last day.

It’s interesting that France hasn’t had a real challenger since Fignon failed to win that day.

Regards Chris [/quote]

68

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Most time is gained in the mountains most of the time. You can lose so much more in the mountains than on the flat stages.

Only the strongest climbers, usually the team leaders and therefore overall riders, are strong enough to come along in the mountains so if you are able to separate from them and gain time, you are usually gaining time in the overall classification. On the flat stages there are way more riders in a team that can do the work and control the race.

So for example if you are my competitor and you escape from the peloton, I can have my team ride tempo to ensure the gap doesnt get to be too much. Also, they will work with the sprint teams to reel in the escapees.

Thats why it pays huge to have “helpers” in the mountains. Take the stage a few days ago won by Menchov of Dutch team Rabobak, he had Michael Boogerd and Rasmussen ride a brutal tempo for him till the point only the strongest riders stayed on and then he was able to finish the stage with a victory and gain significant time in the overall classification.

The other place to gain time is the time trial and team time trial, it is usually not enough to only be a strong climber, you also have to be a strong time trial rider, exception was maybe Marco Pantani. If you look at the last 15 years or so, the winners were good at both, Armstrong, Ullrich, Indurain, Lemond, Fignon, etc.

A

CC wrote:
As I’m a pretty much a newb fan when it comes to cycling, I have a question:

Are the mountain stages the only stages where significant time can be gained/lost? It seems like that’s where all the separation is occurring. Is there really a big difference seen in the second time trial? If anyone could point me to a resource on cycling strategy, teamwork, etc. that’d be great.

[/quote]

Wow, thanks for the clarification AA. I’m starting to understand this stuff more and more everyday, to the point where I’m becoming a little obsessed with it, :-).

When the Tour started, I just happened to coincidentally be getting a free month-long preview of OLN from my satelite service. The preview was supposed to end July 11th, but I started loving the Tour so much I couldn’t not keep up with it, so I made the call to add OLN to my service, lol.

I think cycling is an amazing sport. There’s so much more strategy involved than people who don’t watch realize. My girlfriend asked me a few days ago “How can you just watch a bunch of guys ride bikes all day?”, lol.

69

My favorite part of the tour is Alpe d’Huez or the TTs.

I’m a huge TT fan. Hence my favorite rider is Dave Zabriskie. His TT form is flawless.

Has anyone read about his one line interviews he does during the stages?

70

[quote]TriGWU wrote:
Has anyone read about his one line interviews he does during the stages?
[/quote]

Yeah, that’s the one thing that kind of turned me off about Zabriskie. I haven’t read about the interviews, I’ve actually seen them. When I was trying to find a new guy to get behind, I realized pretty early Hincapie didn’t have much of a shot, so I started following Landis and Zabriskie.

He just seems very stand-offish to me. I can understand being focused, but being focused and being completely unfriendly are two different things altogether, in my mind. It’s not really the fact that he doesn’t talk much that bothers me; it’s more to do with his expressions and mannerisms.

EDIT: That being said, I’m still pulling for the guy (Zabriskie, that is). And if he finds some way to get back up in the mix (he’s 44’ back right now), I’ll be cheering him on.

Landis has got charisma. Everytime you see the guy he’s all smiles. I hope he can get le maillot jaune back in the mountains. Stages 15-17 are going to be brutal. Two hors each on both 15 and 16 (with a couple of other 1’s and 2’s thrown in) and an hors and two 1’s on 17!!! Landis seems to be a pretty decent climber, though, as indicated on the Tourmalet.

71

Wow, what a stage today. They will prob catch the three leaders soon. Did anyone see that crash when there were 6? That was crazy man. Kessler went flying over that barriere end over end. I cant believe he got back on his bike. The other two abandoned, broken leg and boken collarbone.

72

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Yes you are correct my friend. It was in 1989 and he was behind 50 seconds and made up 58 seconds. I just looked it up, he rode an incredible average of 54.545 km/hour, one of the fastest time trials ever in de Tour (Zabriskie 05).

I think that the 89 Tour was one of the best ever, 5 stage wins for Dutch riders, including the prologue by Breukink and the most amazing solo breakaway in the Alps I have ever seen by Gert-Jan Theunisse, winning L’Alp D’Huez.

Its too bad that they dont do that anymore, the time trial on the last day that is, makes for great drama. That last stage is always symbolic, I have never seen a rider high in the overall try a break on the last day to make up time. Must be Tour code.

It is fun to see the break aways on the Champs but they always end in a mass sprint, or just about always.

As far as French riders after Fignon, Jalabert and Virenque come to mind but neither had enough. Also, I thought Moreau would have a shot this year with a lot of the favorites out of it but I guess that brutal mountain stage the other day answered that.

A

The Dutch have had some great riders over the years; I believe that around the same time as Theunisse there was also Stephen Rooks who did well on Overall Classification one year.

I’m even old enough to remember Joop Zoetelmelk (sp) winning in 1980 despite a nasty fall.

Unfortunately we (UK) haven’t had a serious contender since the Tommy Simpson tragedy; I’m not that old, I read about him. :slight_smile:

Chris
[/quote]

73

Haha, you and I are both old enough then, Joop was a trooper, he is known in Holland as the “eeuwige tweede” which loosely translated means the eternal second best. Although he did win one Tour as you mentioned, he came in second a great number of times.

I cant say I am familiar with Simpson. Why do you think it is we have not had a serious contender for the overall classification? One thing comes to mind that Holland is below sea level and very flat but I know the guys still train at higher altitudes. Dutch riders always do well in the classics but I would love to see someone train for the overall lead and ride for it. Boogerd is riding one of his best Tours ever but he is riding for Menchov. I cant wait for Tuesday man, that stage is going to be a slugfest.

A

[quote]Youch wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Yes you are correct my friend. It was in 1989 and he was behind 50 seconds and made up 58 seconds. I just looked it up, he rode an incredible average of 54.545 km/hour, one of the fastest time trials ever in de Tour (Zabriskie 05).

I think that the 89 Tour was one of the best ever, 5 stage wins for Dutch riders, including the prologue by Breukink and the most amazing solo breakaway in the Alps I have ever seen by Gert-Jan Theunisse, winning L’Alp D’Huez.

Its too bad that they dont do that anymore, the time trial on the last day that is, makes for great drama. That last stage is always symbolic, I have never seen a rider high in the overall try a break on the last day to make up time. Must be Tour code.

It is fun to see the break aways on the Champs but they always end in a mass sprint, or just about always.

As far as French riders after Fignon, Jalabert and Virenque come to mind but neither had enough. Also, I thought Moreau would have a shot this year with a lot of the favorites out of it but I guess that brutal mountain stage the other day answered that.

A

The Dutch have had some great riders over the years; I believe that around the same time as Theunisse there was also Stephen Rooks who did well on Overall Classification one year.

I’m even old enough to remember Joop Zoetelmelk (sp) winning in 1980 despite a nasty fall.

Unfortunately we (UK) haven’t had a serious contender since the Tommy Simpson tragedy; I’m not that old, I read about him. :slight_smile:

Chris

[/quote]

74

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Wow, what a stage today. They will prob catch the three leaders soon. Did anyone see that crash when there were 6? That was crazy man. Kessler went flying over that barriere end over end. I cant believe he got back on his bike. The other two abandoned, broken leg and boken collarbone. [/quote]

That was very nasty indeed. Kessler did a great job to react when he did and was very unlucky to hit the guard rail otherwise he would have stayed upright.

Didn’t that last climb sort everyone out? I can’t believe how quickly some of those guys just had their legs blow up on them suddenly after looking a million dollars at the front of the pack minutes earlier. The two guys from the breakaway deserved their places in the end, although they are going to feel it on Tuesday in the Alps, LOL!

I’m hoping that the two top Aussies, Cadel Evans and Michael Rogers, can do something special in the mountains and move up a bit further into striking distance. I think there is one more time trial isn’t there? They would have a great chance of snatching the lead if there is.

75

[quote]bg100 wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Wow, what a stage today. They will prob catch the three leaders soon. Did anyone see that crash when there were 6? That was crazy man. Kessler went flying over that barriere end over end. I cant believe he got back on his bike. The other two abandoned, broken leg and boken collarbone.

That was very nasty indeed. Kessler did a great job to react when he did and was very unlucky to hit the guard rail otherwise he would have stayed upright.

Didn’t that last climb sort everyone out? I can’t believe how quickly some of those guys just had their legs blow up on them suddenly after looking a million dollars at the front of the pack minutes earlier. The two guys from the breakaway deserved their places in the end, although they are going to feel it on Tuesday in the Alps, LOL!

I’m hoping that the two top Aussies, Cadel Evans and Michael Rogers, can do something special in the mountains and move up a bit further into striking distance. I think there is one more time trial isn’t there? They would have a great chance of snatching the lead if there is.[/quote]

Yeah, it’s an individual TT if I remember correctly (someone was talking about that earlier in this very thread). Apparently they removed the team TT, which sucks for me because I’ve never seen one and would love to see how that works. I know the basics, with riders taking turns up front protecting the leader from the head-wind, but it’d still be cool to watch.

76

Hi AA
Tommy Simpson was the guy who died on Mt Venteaux (sp?) in 1967. It was reported that he came off his bike due to exhaustion and said to the crowd “just put me back on my bike”, they did and he managed another 100m or so before he collapsed and died.

At the post mortem they found steroids in his blood (can’t remember which probably D-bol); it was one of the first cases of proven steroid taking in sport.

It’s an interesting question you pose regarding why Holland can’t produce a winner. I believe that the traditional hot beds of cycling will come good again in time (Holland, France, Belgium); 20 years ago a U.S. winner was almost unthinkable and now they’ve won half the tours in the last 20 years.

Your time will come:)

Regards Chris

77

[quote]KiloSprinter wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
That was amazing, it was neck on neck though time wise with Fignon right? I believe I was actually in a French cafe that day in Montpellier watching it live on tv, man, those French were pissed when Lemond pulled it off. I think that may have been one day before they went to the Champs Elysee.

chrismcl wrote:
CC, Greg LeMond won his TdF with his performance in the 2nd TT. I forgot how far he was back on time but he made up a large deficit and his average speed for the TT was insane.

Lemond can thank his aerobars for that win, for sure. The TT was very short, and no one thought it would be possible to make up the deficit.
[/quote]

If Fignon would only have used Aero bars and cut off that damn pony tail he was sporting at the time, he would have won the 89 TDF.

78

Well, so much for an American taking home the yellow :-). I think it’s good for the sport, though.

It’ll be nice to see an actual race to the end, what with the big climb tomorrow and one TT still to go. The top six are only separated by about 4 minutes. Now I don’t have anybody in particular to root for, lol, so I just want to see a good final four days.

79

Wow, what a stage man, Landis got hit by the man with the hammer and he got hit hard!! He lost 8 minutes in the last 10 km’s on that last climb. Too bad Menchov lost some time as well but yet another great ride and victory for Dutch team Rabobank, I think the most successful team thus far in the Tour.

I am very suprised Pereiro was riding so well and it is going to be a great finish.

I am actually somewhat glad Landis got a reality check. There was a lot of talk of him being a loud mouth in the peloton and him making himself seem invincible. Not sure how much of this is truth but if it was the case I guess he has now learned it takes more than a big mouth to take the Tour.

[quote]CC wrote:
Well, so much for an American taking home the yellow :-). I think it’s good for the sport, though.

It’ll be nice to see an actual race to the end, what with the big climb tomorrow and one TT still to go. The top six are only separated by about 4 minutes. Now I don’t have anybody in particular to root for, lol, so I just want to see a good final four days.[/quote]

80

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
I am actually somewhat glad Landis got a reality check. There was a lot of talk of him being a loud mouth in the peloton and him making himself seem invincible. Not sure how much of this is truth but if it was the case I guess he has now learned it takes more than a big mouth to take the Tour.[/quote]

If that is true, then I am glad, as well. The last thing we need is Americans making us look bad and giving foreigners even more of a reason to dislike us and spit in our food when we visit, lol.

All kidding aside, I’m not a big fan of brash sports stars. I know LA was kind of that way, but I’ll give him a pass because if it wasn’t for him I probably wouldn’t care about cycling in the first place. Plus, he’s done some amazing work for cancer awareness and research.