2 Journalists Gunned Down in Iraq

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]MaliMedved wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

The ENTIRE WORLD believed he had them. Left. Right. Moderates. Marxists. John Birchers. The French. The Congolese. The penguins in Antarctica.
[/quote]

Somebody lied to you. [/quote]

Black is white and the sky is green with you so it leads me to believe I’m arguing with an irrational man - always an imprudent decision. I think I will cease to do so, so I can maintain my claim to prudence.
[/quote]

Funny. My thoughts exactly. I just have an annoying feeling, and I could be wrong - that you are trying to assume authority on the issues where you got the information from the US mainstream media only, hence you can’t make correct conclusions, since your starting data is distorted.
If I’m right, try talking to British, German, French, Polish, or any other major Euro nationality. You might change your mind.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
“Remembering the rallies”? Yeah, the folks at the rallies were in the know. They had it figured out what with their combined average IQ of 65.[/quote]

How does it feel then, knowing that people with an average IQ of 65 didn’t buy into an idiotic war which you are now, despite all of the evidence, still trying to justify?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

  1. They were in non-compliance with the 1991 cease-fire and interfered with UN inspections.
    In reality, the only aspect of the cease-fire that would have warranted a full-blown invasion was the order to stop developing chem/bio weapons.[/quote]

Really now? Who’s doing the warranting and non-warranting here? Subjective lil ol’ you, that’s who.[quote]

Evidence clearly shows that Iraq had complied with condition[/quote]

The ENTIRE WORLD believed he had them. Left. Right. Moderates. Marxists. John Birchers. The French. The Congolese. The penguins in Antarctica.

And the Kurds are absolutely positive he had them. Not a single shred of doubt in their minds whatsoever.
[/quote]

The entire world except those with any real access to intelligence, including the CIA and the NSA. Give me a break. The entire world didn’t believe shit. The intelligence community has repeatedly denied the merit of the questionable and small amount of intelligence the Bush administration used to justify the buildup to war. I’m probably giving you too much credit, but I assume you understand that when planning to invade a country, the opinions/beliefs of the left, the right, Marxists, moderates, conservatives and so forth means nothing. All that matters is the veracity of the justification for going to war and we KNOW now just like the CIA, NSA and the UN inspectors knew then that the only thing remotely representing wmds in Iraq were, to borrow from the Department of Defense, were not usable and that “these are not the wmds this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the wmds for which this country went to war.”

Please stop providing your wildly inaccurate assumptions as evidence or rationale for the war. The case for going to war was clearly laid out in the Iraq Resolution (a resolution, I might add, that only recommended war after ALL diplomatic means were exhausted), and as was fairly clear at the time and as is painfully clear now, the resolution’s conditions for war were not met.

As for point number one, I think you should read the 1991 cease-fire before you accuse me of subjectivity. The cease-fire stated that a violation of it would include another invasion of Kuwait or another neighboring country (which didn’t happen), the use of chem/bio weapons (which didn’t happen), or the development of such weapons. You’re right, I was being subjective. There was nothing in the language of the cease-fire that Hussein was in violation of that would warrant an invasion.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

  1. Another reference to wmd’s that, again, did not exist…

[/quote]You’re dead wrong.

You need to research your replies a bit because apparently you’re too young or blind to remember recent history.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/01/26/article-1245924-005C3FDD00000258-597_468x286.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1245924/Saddam-Husseins-notorious-cousin-Chemical-Ali-executed.html&usg=__KnEHlMGoKSmvz_tZ9PxulZpt2pw=&h=286&w=468&sz=60&hl=en&start=25&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=uv6IV-wUsS1ukM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgas%2Bkurds%2Biraq%26start%3D21%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Disch:1

[/quote]

This picture was taken in 1988. And these people were killed by chemical weapons that the U.S., Germany, France and Britain indirectly financed the development of. Exacting revenge for these deaths was never a part of the Iraq Resolution either. Try again.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

  1. An alleged plot to assassinate former President George HW Bush in 1993.
    First of all, the plot was attempted after Bush left the office. As heinous as it is to attempt to assassinate Bush, it’s simply not the same as attempting to kill a sitting President. Also, there is virtually no evidence linking the conspirators to Iraq or specifically to Saddam Hussein. The fact that the invasion occurred ten years after the attempt lessens its credibility even further.

[/quote]I did not claim a sitting President was targeted. Don’t twist my words.

“It’s not the same,” huh? Does it need to be?

The evidence is there. You choose to ignore it and present it as fact that it does not exist. That’s your mistake not mine.
[/quote]

The evidence is dubious at best. You’re reaching here Push. You’re a chickenhawk and now you’re distorting what little justification there ever was to go to war in Iraq to support your erroneous views.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
.

  1. The need for the U.S. to fight terrorists, including the perpetrators of 9/11 and those who aided or harbored them.
    Again, according to the entire intelligence community, this would eliminate Iraq since there was NO evidence whatsoever linking Hussein with any terrorist acts committed against the U.S.

[/quote]Dead wrong.

  1. Czech intelligence. Prague. Atta. April 2001.

  2. Two Iraqis imprisoned by Kurds. Interviewed by Nightline. Established working relationship between Al Qaeda and Iraqi govt since the invasion of Kuwait.

  3. Muhammed Mansur Shihabili. He killed "for the Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda.

Read Michael Ledeen’s book, The Terror Masters. Don’t get all your information from the NYT. Explore your world, Cooper.
[/quote]

Hahaha. Really Push? Czech intelligence? Two Iraqis imprisoned by Kurds? Do you think the Kurds wouldn’t want to link Hussein in any way, shape or form to 9/11. Muhammed Mansur Shihabili? A contract killer? THIS is the justification for going to war? This is credible evidence? You’ve lost it.

Push, before you continue to try to shove your delusional recollections of the prelude to war in Iraq down everyone’s throats, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Paul R. Pillar, a veteran CIA intelligence analyst, the Downing Street Memo, and a report from FoxNews.com released on June 21, 2006. This is where I get my info from, not the NY Times. I don’t know where the hell you get yours from.

Micheal Leeden Push? The guy who was been tied to the Yellowcake affair by several CIA agents and the Italian Military Inteliigence? The guy who, according to several CIA agents participated in the forging of documents to create the illusion that Niger had sold yellowcake uranium to Iraq? This is your credible source of intelligence? This is beyond typical of you. You have absolutely zero credibility. Do everybody here with even a remote sense of reality a favor and stop posting crystal-clear examples of your ignorance here.

Here’s a newsflash: your insults and downright refusal to accept that anyone other than yourself could ever be correct on an issue do nothing to strengthen your stance on issues. If you had any leg to stand on here, you would engage in a rational debate rather than attempt to distract others from the fragile logic of your arguments with insults and mockery. It’s sophistry all over again.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
.

  1. The need for the U.S. to fight terrorists, including the perpetrators of 9/11 and those who aided or harbored them.
    Again, according to the entire intelligence community, this would eliminate Iraq since there was NO evidence whatsoever linking Hussein with any terrorist acts committed against the U.S.

[/quote]Dead wrong.

  1. Czech intelligence. Prague. Atta. April 2001.

  2. Two Iraqis imprisoned by Kurds. Interviewed by Nightline. Established working relationship between Al Qaeda and Iraqi govt since the invasion of Kuwait.

  3. Muhammed Mansur Shihabili. He killed "for the Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda.

Read Michael Ledeen’s book, The Terror Masters. Don’t get all your information from the NYT. Explore your world, Cooper.
[/quote]

Hahaha. Really Push? Czech intelligence? Two Iraqis imprisoned by Kurds? Do you think the Kurds wouldn’t want to link Hussein in any way, shape or form to 9/11. Muhammed Mansur Shihabili? A contract killer? THIS is the justification for going to war? This is credible evidence. You’ve lost it.[/quote]

This is part of the justification for going to war (the long list was presented earlier). Or rather this is some “evidence” which is what you requested. Evidence and proof are two different things. I think you’re smart enough to know the difference.

Now you may not like the long list. You may present evidence that has surfaced since 2002. You may armchair quarterback like many of us do. And you may have lost it.

Bottom line is you are no ordained arbiter of Truth. Climb down off the throne - you don’t belong there.

There are many facets to this discussion. A lot in play here. No definitive plan as to the Right course of action even now with hindsight.[/quote]

Hindsight is 20/20 and you know what? Who benefited the most from the Iraq War? Israel

Who lobbied the most support for a war with Iraq? AIPAC

Who were the main architects behind the Iraq War?
1). Paul Wolfowitz – Deputy Defense Secretary, Bush’s foreign policy campaign advisor. Appointed to the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency in 1973. Mark Green in his article Serving two flags: Neo-Cons, Israel and the Bush administration www.counterpunch.org noted: â??Wolfowitzâ?¦brought to ACDA a strong attachment to Israelâ??s security, and a certain confusion about his obligation to U.S. national security.â?? Investigated in 1978 for passing classified documents to Israel through an American Israeli Public Affairs Committee intermediary. There was no indictment.

After the terrorist attacks of 9/11 Wolfowitz argued strongly for war with Iraq rather than with the center of power and training for Al Qaeda, Afghanistan.

2). Richard Perle – One of George Bush’s Foreign Policy Advisors. Chairman of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board. A close personal friend of former prime minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu. in 1996, Perle was behind the report A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm written for the incoming Israeli Likud Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

In 1970 Pearle was recorded by the FBI discussing classified information with the Israeli Embassy. In 1981 he worked for an Israeli defense contractor. Also in 1981 he was appointed Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy an agency that monitors defense technology exports.

3). Douglas Feith – Headed reconstruction in Iraq. Was Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel.

Feith was fired from a position with the National Security Council in 1972 due to an investigation into his passing documents to the Israeli Embassy. In 1986 he opened a law firm in Israel Feith and Zell and later obtained a pardon for the Jewish arms dealer Marc Rich from president Clinton. During the late 80’s and early 90’s he wrote op-ed pieces in Israeli newspapers arguing for the Palestinians moving to Jordan and that the West Bank was a part of Israel. He also argued for regime change in Iraq. He is a founding member of One Jerusalem, an Israeli organization that wants no compromise with the Palestinians on any part of Jerusalem.

4). Elliott Abrams – National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based “think tank” Ethics and Public Policy Center. He is associated with “think tanks” PNAC, AEI, CSP, JINSA, and with the Likud government in Israel. Close associate of Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, Marc Paul Gerecht, Michael Ledeen and Paul Wolfowitz. In his boo he calls for Jews to marry Jews and retain their ethnic cohesion. Convicted of lying to Congress in the Iran/Contra affair he was sentenced to 2 yrs. probation, 100 hours of community service and a $50.00 fine. He was given a Christmas pardon by Bush 1.

5). Abraham Shulsky-- Protégée of Richard Pearle and friend of Paul Wolfowitz. He was appointed head of the Office of Special Plans which was under Feith and Wolfowitz. This office eventually became more powerful in relation to Iraq than the CIA or the Defense Intelligence Agency. It supplied the major portion of the fraudulent intelligence that was used by the Bush administration to justify the War in Iraq. It is believed that the OSP worked closely with Mossad to exaggerate Iraqi weapons estimates.

6). Stephen Bryen In 1978 he was investigated for offering classified documents to the Israeli Embassy’s Mossad chief in front of a representative of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). From 1979 to 1981 Bryen served as executive director for the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. He was hired by Richard Pearle during the Reagan years for the position of Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense. In 1988 Richard Pearle and Stephen Bryen temporarily got permission to export sensitive technology used in anti-ballistic missiles (klystron technology). Two senior Department of Defense colleagues said the attempt to export the technology was “standard operating procedure” for Stephen Bryen. They recalled numerous instances of US companies being unable to get export licensure for certain technologies only to find (US derived) copies being sold by Israel.

The investigation was closed after the Senate Foreign Relations Committee refused to grant access to the Justice Department’s files and after Plilip Heymann, the Jewish chief of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division (very active in the campaign to free Israeli spy Pollard) closed the investigation.

7). Michael Leeden Executive Director of the Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs 1977-1979. During the years of Ronald Regan Leeden was considered an agent of influence by the CIA and suspected of espionage by his superior at the Defense Department, Noel Koch. Consultant to Abraham Shulsky’s Office of Special Plans that supplied fraudulent intelligence to the Bush Administration regarding Iraq.

8). And of course let’s not forget that piece of shit Scooter Libby.

What do all of these men have in common? They are all Jewish and they are all rabid, hate mongering, murdering Zionists.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
.

  1. The need for the U.S. to fight terrorists, including the perpetrators of 9/11 and those who aided or harbored them.
    Again, according to the entire intelligence community, this would eliminate Iraq since there was NO evidence whatsoever linking Hussein with any terrorist acts committed against the U.S.

[/quote]Dead wrong.

  1. Czech intelligence. Prague. Atta. April 2001.

  2. Two Iraqis imprisoned by Kurds. Interviewed by Nightline. Established working relationship between Al Qaeda and Iraqi govt since the invasion of Kuwait.

  3. Muhammed Mansur Shihabili. He killed "for the Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda.

Read Michael Ledeen’s book, The Terror Masters. Don’t get all your information from the NYT. Explore your world, Cooper.
[/quote]

Hahaha. Really Push? Czech intelligence? Two Iraqis imprisoned by Kurds? Do you think the Kurds wouldn’t want to link Hussein in any way, shape or form to 9/11. Muhammed Mansur Shihabili? A contract killer? THIS is the justification for going to war? This is credible evidence. You’ve lost it.[/quote]

This is part of the justification for going to war (the long list was presented earlier). Or rather this is some “evidence” which is what you requested. Evidence and proof are two different things. I think you’re smart enough to know the difference.

Now you may not like the long list. You may present evidence that has surfaced since 2002. You may armchair quarterback like many of us do. And you may have lost it.

Bottom line is you are no ordained arbiter of Truth. Climb down off the throne - you don’t belong there.

There are many facets to this discussion. A lot in play here. No definitive plan as to the Right course of action even now with hindsight.[/quote]

Hindsight is 20/20 and you know what? Who benefited the most from the Iraq War? Israel

Who lobbied the most support for a war with Iraq? AIPAC

Who were the main architects behind the Iraq War?
1). Paul Wolfowitz – Deputy Defense Secretary, Bush’s foreign policy campaign advisor. Appointed to the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency in 1973. Mark Green in his article Serving two flags: Neo-Cons, Israel and the Bush administration www.counterpunch.org noted: Ã?¢??WolfowitzÃ?¢?Ã?¦brought to ACDA a strong attachment to IsraelÃ?¢??s security, and a certain confusion about his obligation to U.S. national security.Ã?¢?? Investigated in 1978 for passing classified documents to Israel through an American Israeli Public Affairs Committee intermediary. There was no indictment.

After the terrorist attacks of 9/11 Wolfowitz argued strongly for war with Iraq rather than with the center of power and training for Al Qaeda, Afghanistan.

2). Richard Perle – One of George Bush’s Foreign Policy Advisors. Chairman of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board. A close personal friend of former prime minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu. in 1996, Perle was behind the report A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm written for the incoming Israeli Likud Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

In 1970 Pearle was recorded by the FBI discussing classified information with the Israeli Embassy. In 1981 he worked for an Israeli defense contractor. Also in 1981 he was appointed Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy an agency that monitors defense technology exports.

3). Douglas Feith – Headed reconstruction in Iraq. Was Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel.

Feith was fired from a position with the National Security Council in 1972 due to an investigation into his passing documents to the Israeli Embassy. In 1986 he opened a law firm in Israel Feith and Zell and later obtained a pardon for the Jewish arms dealer Marc Rich from president Clinton. During the late 80’s and early 90’s he wrote op-ed pieces in Israeli newspapers arguing for the Palestinians moving to Jordan and that the West Bank was a part of Israel. He also argued for regime change in Iraq. He is a founding member of One Jerusalem, an Israeli organization that wants no compromise with the Palestinians on any part of Jerusalem.

4). Elliott Abrams – National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based “think tank” Ethics and Public Policy Center. He is associated with “think tanks” PNAC, AEI, CSP, JINSA, and with the Likud government in Israel. Close associate of Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, Marc Paul Gerecht, Michael Ledeen and Paul Wolfowitz. In his boo he calls for Jews to marry Jews and retain their ethnic cohesion. Convicted of lying to Congress in the Iran/Contra affair he was sentenced to 2 yrs. probation, 100 hours of community service and a $50.00 fine. He was given a Christmas pardon by Bush 1.

5). Abraham Shulsky-- Prot�?�©g�?�©e of Richard Pearle and friend of Paul Wolfowitz. He was appointed head of the Office of Special Plans which was under Feith and Wolfowitz. This office eventually became more powerful in relation to Iraq than the CIA or the Defense Intelligence Agency. It supplied the major portion of the fraudulent intelligence that was used by the Bush administration to justify the War in Iraq. It is believed that the OSP worked closely with Mossad to exaggerate Iraqi weapons estimates.

6). Stephen Bryen In 1978 he was investigated for offering classified documents to the Israeli Embassy’s Mossad chief in front of a representative of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). From 1979 to 1981 Bryen served as executive director for the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. He was hired by Richard Pearle during the Reagan years for the position of Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense. In 1988 Richard Pearle and Stephen Bryen temporarily got permission to export sensitive technology used in anti-ballistic missiles (klystron technology). Two senior Department of Defense colleagues said the attempt to export the technology was “standard operating procedure” for Stephen Bryen. They recalled numerous instances of US companies being unable to get export licensure for certain technologies only to find (US derived) copies being sold by Israel.

The investigation was closed after the Senate Foreign Relations Committee refused to grant access to the Justice Department’s files and after Plilip Heymann, the Jewish chief of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division (very active in the campaign to free Israeli spy Pollard) closed the investigation.

7). Michael Leeden Executive Director of the Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs 1977-1979. During the years of Ronald Regan Leeden was considered an agent of influence by the CIA and suspected of espionage by his superior at the Defense Department, Noel Koch. Consultant to Abraham Shulsky’s Office of Special Plans that supplied fraudulent intelligence to the Bush Administration regarding Iraq.

8). And of course let’s not forget that piece of shit Scooter Libby.

What do all of these men have in common? They are all Jewish and they are all rabid, hate mongering, murdering Zionists.[/quote]

Now to be fair and balanced please give us a litany of those who opposed the war along with their rap sheets.

(You should’ve edited out your final sentence. You completely destroyed your credibility by exposing who you actually are)[/quote]

For once Push, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Now to be fair and balanced please give us a litany of those who opposed the war along with their rap sheets.

(You should’ve edited out your final sentence. You completely destroyed your credibility by exposing who you actually are)[/quote]

Why? Because I oppose a racist, apartheid state. Because Zionists have infiltrated every faucet of the US government and bend our foreign policy to the will of Israel?

How can you continue to argue that the Iraq War was justified? It has been a disaster.

What has America gained from it? Anything, besides thousands of American lives lost and tens of thousands maimed. Billions upon billions of taxpayer money being wasted.

Stability in the region?
A better standing of America in the world? Anything? Please tell me, because I can’t think of one thing.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Now to be fair and balanced please give us a litany of those who opposed the war along with their rap sheets.

(You should’ve edited out your final sentence. You completely destroyed your credibility by exposing who you actually are)[/quote]

Why? Because I oppose a racist, apartheid state. Because Zionists have infiltrated every faucet of the US government and bend our foreign policy to the will of Israel?

How can you continue to argue that the Iraq War was justified? It has been a disaster.

What has America gained from it? Anything, besides thousands of American lives lost and tens of thousands maimed. Billions upon billions of taxpayer money being wasted.

Stability in the region?
A better standing of America in the world? Anything? Please tell me, because I can’t think of one thing.
[/quote]

Buddy, you dun burnt your toast here. Be gone.[/quote]

I’ll take that as meaning you can’t come up with anything. This is perfect symptoms of empire decline. We deplete the treasury on needless wars while our own people are lacking. We worry about the security and affairs of others nations instead of concentrating on our own.

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives" - Major General Smedley Butler, USMC