$2.7 Trillion to Protect America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Brown_Sugar wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
BS:

You keep trying to say this is a war in Iraq about 9-11. You are wrong.

BUT wasn’t this what our president used as a reason to invade Iraq?! Iraq was seen as a threat to world peace. Iraq has WMD. Iraq has a link to terrorism and whatever else they want to us to believe.
You don’t recall? How could you forget?

If I was right, according to you, the president lied to us. but I guess in your book it is ok.

Rockscar wrote:

It happen that after we ousted the dictator, the terrorists cam in.

uuuhhh…huh???..came in?! came in where? Iraq?? The Shiites have always been there and so other insurgent groups. Saddam was, simply put, keeping all of them in check.

And has anyone ever thought about how you would react if some other country invade America or whatever you are from? wouldn’t grap a gun and fight them off your country?!

Rockscar wrote:
Simple truth here is that the Iraqi people overwhelmingly want us there.

Says who? FOX news?! Have you been to Iraq?

Really though, if they really want us there, why are we still having this war?

Rockscar wrote:The focus turned from ousing the dictator and establishing a peoples government to fighting terrorism and establishing a peoples based Govt.

This is where we are at and has nothing to do with 9-11, but you all need something to bitch about, so there it is.

No, we are there because of OIL! OIL OIL OIL and OIL.

Not because of WMD(fukkit N. Korea admitted to produce nuclear weapon, but ummm…yeah, all of a sudden we need to be doplomatic about it) or because of freeing Iraqis. If you believe this ish, sorry, Cinderella is probably real for you.

Civilian Iraqi people are pretty much in the same boat as the 9/11 victims and their family. The boat that no one gives a fukk about.
[/quote]

Wow. I am going to make this pretty much my last post on this thread (or at least in response to your posts which are just getting more and more strident and less and less coherent).

  1. I guess all of those violated UN resolutions by Iraq slipped your mind.

  2. You make Saddam sound like he was doing everyone favor by keeping “Shiites and other insurgent groups in check.” First of all, the insurgents are foreign to Iraq so these are not people somehow “defending their country”. Second, you just made an argument about the benefits of a dictator can bring “stability” to a country. Nice. Tell that to the slaughtered Kurds.

  3. The oil? You do realize a majority of the oil consumed by the United States does not even come from the Middle East, right? Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, etc.

Anyway, your posts are not worth the effort of typing to respond. I have no issues with people who want to debate something or disagree, but for God’s sake, at least string a coherent argument together. I may disagree with Irish, but at least he is not practically screeching and making crap up.

Kuz

42

[quote]Kuz wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think there was a thread on this…or similar to it.

They’re cutting social welfare programs and dumping money into the armed forces. Typical Republican administration, with the neocon emphasis on the military. Hopefully they’ll be gone soon.

Hang on a sec, Irish. I think you and I both know that the problem with the “headlines” on things these days is you will hear something like “MEDICARE TO BE CUT TO FUND DEFENSE!” which is a pretty loaded statement. What exactly are they discussing cutting?

It reminds me of something I was reading today where the new House Majority Leader, John Boehner, was criticized because of a plan he supported which “cut funding to student loans”.

At first blush it sounds like he wants to screw students trying to pay their way through schools, when in reality it was a cut to subsidies given to private banks to entice them into providing loans to students through the federal programs (something that is no longer needed given the amount of competition these days in the loan market).

Just a thought.[/quote]

Politics is far more complicated than most people think. Its shit like this that was how Rove painted Kerry as a “flip flopper”. EVery bill is loaded with a lot more than the papers pick up on.

However, the basic premise of the Republican Party is that they are against social welfare. Cutting it is dangerous however, because old people vote en masse’. If you cut social security and medicaid, than you don’t get reelected.

But this is basic spending- cuts in education, medicare, and a 6.9% increase in the military. Not too mention 4 billion for the drilling in ANWR- which Congress has repeatedly shot down.

43

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Brown_Sugar wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
BS:

You keep trying to say this is a war in Iraq about 9-11. You are wrong.

BUT wasn’t this what our president used as a reason to invade Iraq?! Iraq was seen as a threat to world peace. Iraq has WMD. Iraq has a link to terrorism and whatever else they want to us to believe.
You don’t recall? How could you forget?

If I was right, according to you, the president lied to us. but I guess in your book it is ok.

Rockscar wrote:

It happen that after we ousted the dictator, the terrorists cam in.

uuuhhh…huh???..came in?! came in where? Iraq?? The Shiites have always been there and so other insurgent groups. Saddam was, simply put, keeping all of them in check.

And has anyone ever thought about how you would react if some other country invade America or whatever you are from? wouldn’t grap a gun and fight them off your country?!

Rockscar wrote:
Simple truth here is that the Iraqi people overwhelmingly want us there.

Says who? FOX news?! Have you been to Iraq?

Really though, if they really want us there, why are we still having this war?

Rockscar wrote:The focus turned from ousing the dictator and establishing a peoples government to fighting terrorism and establishing a peoples based Govt.

This is where we are at and has nothing to do with 9-11, but you all need something to bitch about, so there it is.

No, we are there because of OIL! OIL OIL OIL and OIL.

Not because of WMD(fukkit N. Korea admitted to produce nuclear weapon, but ummm…yeah, all of a sudden we need to be doplomatic about it) or because of freeing Iraqis. If you believe this ish, sorry, Cinderella is probably real for you.

Civilian Iraqi people are pretty much in the same boat as the 9/11 victims and their family. The boat that no one gives a fukk about.

I’ll come back to this later, I’m going home, anyone care to fill in for me?[/quote]

Sorry bro. Not worth the effort.
We’re dealing with someone who is being spoon-fed radical leftist propaganda and
refuses to think for themselves. That statement about civilian Iraqis being in the same boat as 9-11 victims is so absurd and so insulting, I nearly threw my monitor across the room.

However, I learned a while ago not to even bother debating with nuts like this. Its as if their worldview is so screwed, it can’t be righted, no matter what.

Next topic please.

44

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Brown_Sugar wrote:
(p)Resident Bush submitted a $2.77 trillion budget plan to Congress today that calls for cutting the growth of Medicare and putting tight limits on most spending not related to national security.

$2,770,000,000,000.00 !!! Many of us wouldn’t probably get to see half a million in this life-time!

Let’s see with cutting budget on healthcare and everything else that keeps our society functioning, where will be we at? I don’t even know how the average Americans would have to pay off the original $5 billions. And now they are talking about cutting back on healthcare budget and evaporated social security fund, what should a working-class American do?

The situation is:

There are bills to be paid off. The kids need college tuition fund. Medicare is as good as gone. Obviously, money needs to be saved up money for the retirement years. And that outrageous gas price is what made everything worse.

How should a working-class American take care of his/her family?? The job that he or she is holding now is not guaranteed. Everyday could be his/her last day employed, especially if you work for FORD or GM.

Let’s say he or she got fired. All of a sudden being in the military with all the promised benefits doesn’t sound all that bad at all.

Remember, there are soldiers dying everyday and Iraq is not the US last stop. Recruiting rates have dropped. Draft is at this point out of question. But we need our troops from somewhere so why not cutting back on benefits?

Believe me I’ve seen soldiers signed up for 4 more years just because they couldn’t find another opportunity outside the military that offers the same benefits.

Am I saying everyone should join the military? NO! Absolutely not. But we sure can start sending letters to congress about how DEMOCRACY works.

Democracy is a system where the population of a society controls the government. Democratic government aspires to serve under “the people” rather than ruling over them. But I don’t recall anyone asked me whether I approved the war or this $2.7 trillion to be given away.

Homeland security? The way it looks like America needs an agency to protect us from the president. Forget about the terrorists. Our president has done more damage to our society than any terrorists have so far.

Here is the link so you can read it for yourself.

Please move to Canada. All these problems would go away for you. Otherwise quit bitching about the cost of protecting our nation and then saying we can’t find jobs because of it.

Jobless rates are at an all time low. Let’s blame that on somebody…humm who can we blame for that?[/quote]

Right on Rockscar!

Move to Canada…

lol

45

[quote]Brown_Sugar wrote:
Please, don’t tell me that our government is sincere and is for people like us and not just the RICH RICH RICH people.

Please, don’t tell me that you really believe Iraq has WMD.

Please, don’t tell me that you believe Iraq has a link with 9/11.

Please, don’t tell me that you believe Iraq war is about war on TERROR.

Please, don’t tell me that you believe we are benefiting from this war.

Please, don’t tell me that you believe America is liberating in Iraq.

Please, don’t tell me that we have had significant progress since we first invaded Iraq.

Please, don’t tell me that you believe in those lies ‘HE’ has been telling you.

Please, don’t tell me that ‘keep the people scared’ tactic has worked on you.

I think I should have started this thread differently. You know just posting “Bush’s $2.77 Trillion Budget Plan Calls for Medicare Cuts” and the link to the news. I’m pretty sure some of ya’ll would have answered it differently.

[/quote]

Hey Sugar,

Please don’t tell me that you really mean to tell us that you don’t believe all of those points.

Do you love your country, by the way?

46

[quote]JD430 wrote:
You may be shocked by this but many of us believe the primary, and possibly only reason, for government to exist is to protect its people and allow them to flourish if they work hard.

This means money SHOULD go to the military , law enforcment and other emergency services operations. The reason for this is simple…if you are fighting for your life every day, it doesnt really open up many chances to build, invent and so forth.

It also means that government shouldnt be funding people’s laziness. The government does not owe you medical care every time you stub a toe. The government does not need to fund every dope’s silly project. We also should not feel any obligation to pour money into every other country’s coffers because we feel guilty.

I for one say spend as much as you need to in order to keep America safe and free. Doing it at the expense of all these other absurd social programs is an added bonus.

[/quote]

JD,

You are a voice of reason – and by the way – Historcial accuracy.

The primary responsibility of the U.S. Federal Government is to PROTECT the people, NOT PROVIDE for the people.

To piggy back on your excellent post, and answer one of the questions asked on this thread as to “how the average American is going to pay his or her bills,” I say simply – work! I do…

47

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
You may be shocked by this but many of us believe the primary, and possibly only reason, for government to exist is to protect its people and allow them to flourish if they work hard.

This means money SHOULD go to the military , law enforcment and other emergency services operations. The reason for this is simple…if you are fighting for your life every day, it doesnt really open up many chances to build, invent and so forth.

It also means that government shouldnt be funding people’s laziness. The government does not owe you medical care every time you stub a toe. The government does not need to fund every dope’s silly project. We also should not feel any obligation to pour money into every other country’s coffers because we feel guilty.

I for one say spend as much as you need to in order to keep America safe and free. Doing it at the expense of all these other absurd social programs is an added bonus.

JD,

You are a voice of reason – and by the way – Historcial accuracy.

The primary responsibility of the U.S. Federal Government is to PROTECT the people, NOT PROVIDE for the people.

To piggy back on your excellent post, and answer one of the questions asked on this thread as to “how the average American is going to pay his or her bills,” I say simply – work! I do…[/quote]

My friend, I believe we are a dying breed. I can only imagine how the founders must be rolling over in their graves.

48

[quote]JD430 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
You may be shocked by this but many of us believe the primary, and possibly only reason, for government to exist is to protect its people and allow them to flourish if they work hard.

This means money SHOULD go to the military , law enforcment and other emergency services operations. The reason for this is simple…if you are fighting for your life every day, it doesnt really open up many chances to build, invent and so forth.

It also means that government shouldnt be funding people’s laziness. The government does not owe you medical care every time you stub a toe. The government does not need to fund every dope’s silly project. We also should not feel any obligation to pour money into every other country’s coffers because we feel guilty.

I for one say spend as much as you need to in order to keep America safe and free. Doing it at the expense of all these other absurd social programs is an added bonus.

JD,

You are a voice of reason – and by the way – Historcial accuracy.

The primary responsibility of the U.S. Federal Government is to PROTECT the people, NOT PROVIDE for the people.

To piggy back on your excellent post, and answer one of the questions asked on this thread as to “how the average American is going to pay his or her bills,” I say simply – work! I do…

My friend, I believe we are a dying breed. I can only imagine how the founders must be rolling over in their graves. [/quote]

Keep up the good fight. Our country is worth supporting to the end…

49

yeah man i totally agree with you,
that is messed up, how the hell do you survive with no medicare ??? we have full conver here in australia its a blessing and its all free and we are not even rich compared to the USA, ive always wondered about that like what happens when someone in the working family braket gets sick and has no money ???

would hate to imagine the really poor people, it makes no sense to be such a rich country and not look after your people

do people lobby or protest for better health care ???

yeah ive seen alot of articles about the bush admin being very dictor like its scary really like that patriot act and other bills they have passed man if they did that here people would riot

50

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Besides - there wouldn’t BE any terrorist attacks on the US if we didn’t insist on occupying and meddling with every friggin’ middle east affair.

“war on terror” is a fucking joke.

You live in fantasyland? Berkely maybe?

9-11 happened BEFORE we occupied anything. Your point has no validity.

You are wrong about that one buddy american had been fucking with the middle east for nearly 20 years before that happended, the war on terror is a joke you have more chance being killed on the high ways than in a terrorist attack why arnt people WIGGIN OUT AND INVADING the road authority ??? or banning cars or spending millions of dollars fixing roads and teaching safer young drivers and more police on the roads ???

what about crime there are like hundreds of shootings each day why dont the government spend trillions fixing that ???

WAR ON TERROR = JOKE

51

by the way, jobless rates are not at an all-time low, there are at a 4 year low, a President Bush low. that aside,

I’m not the type to suspect consipiracies or the like. I don’t think Bush decided to let 9-11 happen, or anything of the like. I do think that the pre-911 Bush government was less than vigiliant. Case in point, the pre9-11 (August, 2001) brief that’s titled, “Bin Laden determined to Attack in The US”, which outlines quite similar to what happened less than a month later.

Bush, at the time, had Tenet verbally summarize the memoes which the defense/ intelligence community prepared, while Clinton would lock himself in the Oval office marking up the memo in red pen.

I think that neither Bush, nor Republicans, are evil, dumb, etc…I just disagree with most (not all of their ideas). I feel strongly against intelligent design being taught in our science classes, against the government having no regard for final wishes, and against the current administration’s blind eye towards certain businessmen.
I think that gays should be able to form some kind of union for the purpose of health benefits and final wishes (which is really what this is all that talk is about). I think that Bush is not a scientist and has no credibility on the matter. If you listened to the state of the union, he pushed for no stem cell research, no cloning, and no animal-human hybrids WHATSOEVER. My mom is diabetic, and requires insulin which comes from a bacteria GEO with human genes. I know that pushing abstinence-only as effective brth control and reproductive policy has been scientifically demonstrated to be faulty.

Some of the 2.7 trillion dollars is buying body armor for troops, i’m sure, and some of it is building highways to nowhere and making people at Haillburton rich. That’s politics. The 87 billion dollars Kerry voted for/against was similiarly loaded with pork.

By the way, I’m against gun control, high, unfair taxes, and I think abortion should be, as Al Gore said, “safe, legal, and rare”.

Flaming is stupid, and dialogue is a lot more interesting.

52

[quote]Judas wrote:
yeah man i totally agree with you,
that is messed up, how the hell do you survive with no medicare ??? we have full conver here in australia its a blessing and its all free and we are not even rich compared to the USA, ive always wondered about that like what happens when someone in the working family braket gets sick and has no money ???

would hate to imagine the really poor people, it makes no sense to be such a rich country and not look after your people

do people lobby or protest for better health care ???

yeah ive seen alot of articles about the bush admin being very dictor like its scary really like that patriot act and other bills they have passed man if they did that here people would riot
[/quote]

Your taxes pay for your med their which is what? Your taxes are much, much higher than ours. Medicare and Medicaid are tax funded for people who can not afford medical, and many of them receive care as illegals.

As for all your other bullshit, take it somewhere else.

53

also,

just so we have a little bit of perspective, about 30% of the budget goes to defense, 30% to social security/medicaid, and then other pieces of the pie. NASA typically gets two pecrcent.

Obviously, the government pays police.

have we been fucking with the middle east for 20 years? In some ways, yes. In some ways, “they”'ve been fucking with us too. To an extent, it goes both ways, just as to an extent, people in power has stuff to gain on both sides by this conflict. Saddam, is a bad person, i would say. However, Rumsfeld under the Reagan administration shook his hand (google yourself) b/c Reagan loved the guy, bc he was a secular Arrab buttressing Iran. the chemical weapons we accuse Saddam of using on his own people (the Kurds) he got from us. for christsakes, the city of Detroit gave Saddam the key to the city in the 80’s.

During the 90’s, under Clinton, the air force was bombing strategic sites in Iraq an average of once a day (mostly radar and anti missle that was against the no-fly zone). And that action, like all actions, is debatable (and I would debate, based on the evidence, we have now, that it worked), but its not flame-able. flaming people with every other sentence in ALLCAPS doesnt convince anybody of anything. it is why the things that dont work in the us right now dont work.

54

"President Bush, constrained by wars, hurricanes and exploding budget deficits, has sent Congress a 2007 spending plan that is garnering howls of pain from farmers, teachers, doctors and a wide array of other groups with special interests…

"…And in mandatory programs ? so-called because the government must provide benefits to all who qualify ? the president is seeking over the next five years savings of $36 billion in Medicare, $5 billion in farm subsidy programs, $4.9 billion in Medicaid support for poor children’s health care and $16.7 billion in additional payments from companies to shore up the government’s besieged pension benefit agency.

"…Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., said Bush’s budget was sending a clear message "that the most important thing to this administration are tax cuts being made permanent for the wealthiest of Americans."In addition to strict limits on most discretionary, non-security spending in the budget, Bush sought drastic cuts or total elimination on 141 programs that would produce savings of nearly $15 billion in 2007.

The targeted programs included 42 in the area of education ranging from drug-free schools to federal support for the arts, technology and parent-resource centers.

Those proposed cuts were coming at a time when the administration is seeking more spending to train 70,000 high school math and science teachers as part of Bush’s new American Competitiveness Initiative designed to relieve anxiety about the country’s ability to compete with emerging economic powers such as China and India.

"…Robert A. Rizza, president for medicine and science of the American Diabetes Association, said Bush’s proposed cuts in diabetes research and prevention “would weaken the federal resources needed to fight this national epidemic.”

"…“The president’s budget slashes resources for exactly the priorities we should be supporting ? groundbreaking medical research, health care for our seniors, and education for our kids,” said Sen. Tom Harkin (news, bio, voting record), D-Iowa.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060207/ap_on_go_pr_wh/budget

55

[quote]zarathus wrote:
also,

just so we have a little bit of perspective, about 30% of the budget goes to defense, 30% to social security/medicaid, and then other pieces of the pie. NASA typically gets two pecrcent.

Obviously, the government pays police.

have we been fucking with the middle east for 20 years? In some ways, yes. In some ways, “they”'ve been fucking with us too. To an extent, it goes both ways, just as to an extent, people in power has stuff to gain on both sides by this conflict. Saddam, is a bad person, i would say. However, Rumsfeld under the Reagan administration shook his hand (google yourself) b/c Reagan loved the guy, bc he was a secular Arrab buttressing Iran. the chemical weapons we accuse Saddam of using on his own people (the Kurds) he got from us. for christsakes, the city of Detroit gave Saddam the key to the city in the 80’s.

During the 90’s, under Clinton, the air force was bombing strategic sites in Iraq an average of once a day (mostly radar and anti missle that was against the no-fly zone). And that action, like all actions, is debatable (and I would debate, based on the evidence, we have now, that it worked), but its not flame-able. flaming people with every other sentence in ALLCAPS doesnt convince anybody of anything. it is why the things that dont work in the us right now dont work.[/quote]

Saddam did not GET A SINGLE WMD from the US. Not a SINGLE ONE. Why does this LIE persist?

Yes, we sold him some precursors to chemical weapons…but the US government gave him NO weapons. Do you know what a precursor is? Something like chlorine…CHLORINE!

Detroit gave saddam a key to the city in 1980 for donating. THIs was long before the mass murdering that we know of came to light. Besides, its freaking detroit. Is there a worse city in the US? Oh yeah, it was called new orleans.

56

Oh, it’s only precursors.

I bet if you sell guns that don’t have bullets in them at the time, that doesn’t count either right?

The question is whether or not the sale was conducted knowing the planned use of the precursors – not whether the sale involved ready to use weapons.

Proceed with the arguing.

–

By the way, I was curious, why could you not compare civilian Iraqi’s and 9/11?

Innocent civilians in Iraq are dying at the hands of islamic terrorists. Innocent victims are innocent victims, aren’t they?

57

[quote]vroom wrote:
Yes, we sold him some precursors to chemical weapons…but the US government gave him NO weapons. Do you know what a precursor is? Something like chlorine…CHLORINE!

Oh, it’s only precursors.

I bet if you sell guns that don’t have bullets in them at the time, that doesn’t count either right?

The question is whether or not the sale was conducted knowing the planned use of the precursors – not whether the sale involved ready to use weapons.

Proceed with the arguing.

–
[/quote]

Dont be silly about the gun analogy. That is just down right foolish.

Now, if someone wants to prove we sold dual use items with the express intent of letting saddam hussein gather a WMD, then let the evidence be shown.

Also, the US was just one of many, many countries that ‘armed’ saddam hussein. The US wasn’t even anywhere near the top of the list. I believe that honor goes to Germany.

58

Does democracy mean that you are in charge now?

59

[quote]Judas wrote:
yeah man i totally agree with you,
that is messed up, how the hell do you survive with no medicare ??? we have full conver here in australia its a blessing and its all free and we are not even rich compared to the USA, ive always wondered about that like what happens when someone in the working family braket gets sick and has no money ???

would hate to imagine the really poor people, it makes no sense to be such a rich country and not look after your people

do people lobby or protest for better health care ???

yeah ive seen alot of articles about the bush admin being very dictor like its scary really like that patriot act and other bills they have passed man if they did that here people would riot
[/quote]

Jesus, it wouldn’t hurt to put some of the medicare money towards your education system.

60

It just seems to me that what Bush says he wants, and what he asks for, are 2 completely different things. But that’s just me.